Bose question for LarryTT and others...
05-25-2000, 09:06 PM
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Bose question for LarryTT and others...
The answer probably already exists, but I searched archives and couldn't find exact the answer to my question...
I ordered the Audio upgrade package and am starting to regret it. I'm interested in replacing the Bose in-dash head unit with Kenwood found at ...msgs/70178.phtml or Sony ...msgs/67950.phtml
is it possible to just replace the bose face with the Kenwood or Sony and keep current speakers/amp/changer etc.. or must I purchase something else? I barely recall someone mentioning that I have to replace the front and rear speakes, and i wouldn't be able to use the bose "amp" ...msgs/69869.phtml
Thanks for your help, guys!
edwin
I ordered the Audio upgrade package and am starting to regret it. I'm interested in replacing the Bose in-dash head unit with Kenwood found at ...msgs/70178.phtml or Sony ...msgs/67950.phtml
is it possible to just replace the bose face with the Kenwood or Sony and keep current speakers/amp/changer etc.. or must I purchase something else? I barely recall someone mentioning that I have to replace the front and rear speakes, and i wouldn't be able to use the bose "amp" ...msgs/69869.phtml
Thanks for your help, guys!
edwin
05-26-2000, 01:32 AM
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All things BOSE....(very long)
There is no such thing as a BOSE head unit – they are all Concert head units made for Audi by Blaupunkt. The Concert head unit is configurable using the VW/Audi diagnostics tool. When installed in a BOSE upgraded car the Concert is configured to limit the amount of BASS and TREBLE and to disable the Front/Rear fader.
The Concert head unit has an internal amplifier allowing it to be connected directly to loudspeakers. This is what is done in a non-BOSE car. It also has a set of line level outputs (preamp/unamplified) which allow it to be connected to an external amplifier and/or equaliser.(pin connections for the Concert have been posted recently to this forum)
In a BOSE car, these line level outputs are connected to a combined equaliser/amp manufactured for BOSE. BOSE claim that this is where they add the value as they have set the equaliser levels to maximise the sound quality for the TT cabin acoustics. This is also why in a BOSE car the Concert is configured to limit the BASS and TREBLE controls as BOSE believe it would compromise the sound quality they have “perfected” with their equaliser settings.
The output of the BOSE amp/equaliser is at 2 ohms (nice and non-standard but then so are most things that BOSE do!) and is fed to seven loudspeakers – two mid frequency units located in the rear bulkhead, two mid range units in the front door panels, two high frequency (tweeter) units in the front door panels and a “centre stage” speaker in the middle of the dashboard. This seventh speaker is to improve the soundstage to compensate for the fact that for both driver and passenger, the distance to the left and right speakers is different due to the person’s non central position in the car.
The Concert head unit can be connected to a CD changer – the official Audi one or an after market Panasonic item. They are actually the same item except for the branding and the type of connector fitted to the changer. If you use the Panasonic item then you need to obtain a lead converter which will allow connection to the TT wiring loom/harness. In the UK these are available from www.autoleads.co.uk.
When thinking of an audio upgrade, a number of factors/issues need to be considered:
i) the Concert unit is not a standard DIN size. After-market head units do not fully fill the hole in the dash requiring filler pieces to be used.
ii) the Concert head unit is integrated with the Driver Information System allowing radio frequency/channel and CD track information to be displayed in the instrument cluster display. After-market head units will not provide this facility.
iii) The Concert head unit looks right in the TT cabin – most after-market head units have far too many gimmicky, graphic intensive displays which, in my humble opinion, look completely out of place in a TT. Further, most after-market head units have extremely frustrating button based volume controls whereas the Concert has a large, centrally located rotary dial (maybe its just me, but going up and down the volume in one step increments is a pain in the *** e.g. stopping at a toll booth and needing to listen/speak to someone you can whack the rotary round in an instant – not so on button based controls)
iv) The Concert head unit with Audi/Panasonic CD changer should provide more than adequate quality for 97.5%of TT owners – if you need more/better amplification than is available from the internal amplifier then use the line level outputs and an after market amp/equaliser. In such a set up, the head unit only really acts as a radio tuner and a CD track selector – it strikes me that it does this more than well enough for all but the most demanding audiophile and you get the benefits of the look/fit and DIS integration. There are some exceptions – if you want minidisc, mp3 or sat-nav features, then a new head unit may me the only way to go – in these cases, the benefits obtained outweigh the loss of DIS integration/aesthetic appeal (although certain sat-nav setups such as the VDO Dayton 4000 (see URL below) and the Empeg player referred to elsewhere on this forum do the TT cabin aesthetics justice).
v) Some have asked if they can upgrade a non-BOSE to BOSE – I don’t know why you would want to do this. Your money would be better spent on non-BOSE brand amplifier/speakers.
vi) In a BOSE car, if you want to upgrade speakers and/or amp it would appear that you have to do both as most after-market speakers are 4ohm and the BOSE amp output is 2 ohm. Similarly, if you only upgrade the amp then your new amp will not like the 2ohm BOSE speakers.
vii) I believe the BOSE speakers are simple paper cone units. Most high end after-market speakers have cones made from high tech silk/ceramic/kevlar fabrics.
viii) In a BOSE car, you can have the head unit reconfigured as if it were a non-BOSE car. (speak to your Audi service agent or find a friend with a VAG tool) This gives you increased BASS/TREBLE settings and restores the Front/Rear fader. Several contributors to this forum have had this done and report improved BASS and generally better sound. With regard to the fader control, the common view seems to be that this is not particularly beneficial as the rear units are mid-range only. To move the soundstage in the car, you really need to be moving the high frequency end of the spectrum.
A bit long but hope this clears it up.
The Concert head unit has an internal amplifier allowing it to be connected directly to loudspeakers. This is what is done in a non-BOSE car. It also has a set of line level outputs (preamp/unamplified) which allow it to be connected to an external amplifier and/or equaliser.(pin connections for the Concert have been posted recently to this forum)
In a BOSE car, these line level outputs are connected to a combined equaliser/amp manufactured for BOSE. BOSE claim that this is where they add the value as they have set the equaliser levels to maximise the sound quality for the TT cabin acoustics. This is also why in a BOSE car the Concert is configured to limit the BASS and TREBLE controls as BOSE believe it would compromise the sound quality they have “perfected” with their equaliser settings.
The output of the BOSE amp/equaliser is at 2 ohms (nice and non-standard but then so are most things that BOSE do!) and is fed to seven loudspeakers – two mid frequency units located in the rear bulkhead, two mid range units in the front door panels, two high frequency (tweeter) units in the front door panels and a “centre stage” speaker in the middle of the dashboard. This seventh speaker is to improve the soundstage to compensate for the fact that for both driver and passenger, the distance to the left and right speakers is different due to the person’s non central position in the car.
The Concert head unit can be connected to a CD changer – the official Audi one or an after market Panasonic item. They are actually the same item except for the branding and the type of connector fitted to the changer. If you use the Panasonic item then you need to obtain a lead converter which will allow connection to the TT wiring loom/harness. In the UK these are available from www.autoleads.co.uk.
When thinking of an audio upgrade, a number of factors/issues need to be considered:
i) the Concert unit is not a standard DIN size. After-market head units do not fully fill the hole in the dash requiring filler pieces to be used.
ii) the Concert head unit is integrated with the Driver Information System allowing radio frequency/channel and CD track information to be displayed in the instrument cluster display. After-market head units will not provide this facility.
iii) The Concert head unit looks right in the TT cabin – most after-market head units have far too many gimmicky, graphic intensive displays which, in my humble opinion, look completely out of place in a TT. Further, most after-market head units have extremely frustrating button based volume controls whereas the Concert has a large, centrally located rotary dial (maybe its just me, but going up and down the volume in one step increments is a pain in the *** e.g. stopping at a toll booth and needing to listen/speak to someone you can whack the rotary round in an instant – not so on button based controls)
iv) The Concert head unit with Audi/Panasonic CD changer should provide more than adequate quality for 97.5%of TT owners – if you need more/better amplification than is available from the internal amplifier then use the line level outputs and an after market amp/equaliser. In such a set up, the head unit only really acts as a radio tuner and a CD track selector – it strikes me that it does this more than well enough for all but the most demanding audiophile and you get the benefits of the look/fit and DIS integration. There are some exceptions – if you want minidisc, mp3 or sat-nav features, then a new head unit may me the only way to go – in these cases, the benefits obtained outweigh the loss of DIS integration/aesthetic appeal (although certain sat-nav setups such as the VDO Dayton 4000 (see URL below) and the Empeg player referred to elsewhere on this forum do the TT cabin aesthetics justice).
v) Some have asked if they can upgrade a non-BOSE to BOSE – I don’t know why you would want to do this. Your money would be better spent on non-BOSE brand amplifier/speakers.
vi) In a BOSE car, if you want to upgrade speakers and/or amp it would appear that you have to do both as most after-market speakers are 4ohm and the BOSE amp output is 2 ohm. Similarly, if you only upgrade the amp then your new amp will not like the 2ohm BOSE speakers.
vii) I believe the BOSE speakers are simple paper cone units. Most high end after-market speakers have cones made from high tech silk/ceramic/kevlar fabrics.
viii) In a BOSE car, you can have the head unit reconfigured as if it were a non-BOSE car. (speak to your Audi service agent or find a friend with a VAG tool) This gives you increased BASS/TREBLE settings and restores the Front/Rear fader. Several contributors to this forum have had this done and report improved BASS and generally better sound. With regard to the fader control, the common view seems to be that this is not particularly beneficial as the rear units are mid-range only. To move the soundstage in the car, you really need to be moving the high frequency end of the spectrum.
A bit long but hope this clears it up.
05-26-2000, 01:40 AM
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Hey my question now....
I have the standard stereo setup - i.e. NON-BOSE
My Front/Rear fader does not work, is my head unit configured wrongly?
I noticed people mention that the fader is disabled when the concert unit is in 'Bose' mode, could mine be accidentally setup for Bose even though I don't have it.
How can I check?
Simon
My Front/Rear fader does not work, is my head unit configured wrongly?
I noticed people mention that the fader is disabled when the concert unit is in 'Bose' mode, could mine be accidentally setup for Bose even though I don't have it.
How can I check?
Simon
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05-26-2000, 02:28 AM
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Simon... perhaps you have aprtially configured head unit...
.... get Audi to reapply the non-BOSE settings through the diagnostic tool - this might awaken the fader function. This might require them to set it temporarily as BOSE and then straight back to non-BOSE.
There's plenty posts on the archives about the codes that can be applied - may be worth printing and taking to your dealer as some seem less switched on than others!
There's plenty posts on the archives about the codes that can be applied - may be worth printing and taking to your dealer as some seem less switched on than others!
05-26-2000, 04:33 AM
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A few clarifications . . .
Mark has made a few very good points about the Bose setup, but keep these things in mind:
1. The Bose amp is <b>1 Ohm</b>, NOT 2 Ohms. The standard in car audio is 2 Ohms. My new stereo in my car is setup this way and so are most car stereos.
2. The information from the radio being displayed in the dash is not that important! It is not worth having if you are not happy with the radio.
3. The Concert Headunit that the Bose setup uses is a Cassette radio. Most people today don't even know what a cassette is, let alone own any! They want cd-headunits and/or MP3 players in the dash.
4. The Amp, speakers and cd changer leaves alot to be desired when it comes to sound quality, even in a car.
5. The Amp is delivering either 175 watts (2000 models) or 225 watts (2001 models) and spreading it around to 6 or 7 speakers! That makes it under 30 watts/speaker for 2000 and 32 watts for 2001! If you want to say the center channel is not getting as much as the other 6 speakers, then put it this way:
Center channel = 15 watts (not too much) and the other 6 = 26 watts! for 2000 and 15/35 watts for 2001!
That is WELL below ANY standard for quality!
6. The cd changer is ONLY a 6 disk design adn a pain in the TTUSH to get to, at least in all places that are left hand drive! I think that the combination of Cassette head-unit and out of reach cd-changer makes replacing the ENTIRE stereo with something else well worth the investment!
I am constantly changing cd's in my TT. I have my 10 disks in the hatch and a cd head-unit in the dash. This is perfect ... for me and I am sure it would be perfect for others as well.
7. The Concert head-unit is a non-standard DIN unit, but a few companies have been making a plate that fills in the gaps left empty when using a standard DIN head-unit. I had mine custom made, but most will not have to go to this length and expense.
8. The Concert head-unit ONLY looks right in the Cabin as Mark put it because of two things:
a. The display is RED.
b. The unit itself is black.
My Kenwood is Black and has the same Red display as the rest of my TT. Everyone that has seen it says it is a perfect match. All someone will have to do is shop around and ask if the unit can be changed to a red display, the rest is of course owner preferance.
9. The last thing mentioned is reconfiguring the head-unit with the VAG tool. This is the ONE item that really has bothered me about the Bose setup and has confirmed my replacing the entire system.
If the Bose Audio option is as good as quite a few have touted, why are so many have the fader turned on, the bass and treble controls upped from +5 to +6?
This just tells me that the Bose system as it comes in the TT is not very good and is lacking in all of these areas.
I listen to music and want to keep the controls flat, or raise what needs to be raised, but NOT max out any of my controls like it seems most Bose TT owners have to do to get any sort of halfway decent sound out of their stereos.
This is counter-productive to getting even part-way nice sound out of the car.
If you are getting ready to order or have already placed your orded and it won't delay things any further, you are better off saving the $1200 and spending it on an aftermarket stereo for the TT.
I hope nobody think I was or am getting defensive about this, I honestly am not. I did what I did because I just happened to have one of the worst car stereos I had ever heard in my entire life! I have listened to well over 20 other TT Bose installs and mine sounded just as different and bad as the others sounded.
One last point I need to make about the Bose stereo setup:
If Bose tunes these things to sound "perfect", how come EVERYONE I have EVER heard sounds totally different from one another? No two sound the same! This should not be, the cars are identical. We have even used the SAME cd to compare apples to apples. Still some sound better than others, but NONE sound very good.
Can anyone answer that question?
Thanks. My $.02.
<p><a href="http://registry.audiworld.com/audi/registry/details.asp?car=3285"><img SRC="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/AudiWorldPics/2000/ttsig.jpg" BORDER=0 alt="Click for Mods"></a>
<a HREF="http://larrytt.tripod.com">Larry's TTQ WebSite
1. The Bose amp is <b>1 Ohm</b>, NOT 2 Ohms. The standard in car audio is 2 Ohms. My new stereo in my car is setup this way and so are most car stereos.
2. The information from the radio being displayed in the dash is not that important! It is not worth having if you are not happy with the radio.
3. The Concert Headunit that the Bose setup uses is a Cassette radio. Most people today don't even know what a cassette is, let alone own any! They want cd-headunits and/or MP3 players in the dash.
4. The Amp, speakers and cd changer leaves alot to be desired when it comes to sound quality, even in a car.
5. The Amp is delivering either 175 watts (2000 models) or 225 watts (2001 models) and spreading it around to 6 or 7 speakers! That makes it under 30 watts/speaker for 2000 and 32 watts for 2001! If you want to say the center channel is not getting as much as the other 6 speakers, then put it this way:
Center channel = 15 watts (not too much) and the other 6 = 26 watts! for 2000 and 15/35 watts for 2001!
That is WELL below ANY standard for quality!
6. The cd changer is ONLY a 6 disk design adn a pain in the TTUSH to get to, at least in all places that are left hand drive! I think that the combination of Cassette head-unit and out of reach cd-changer makes replacing the ENTIRE stereo with something else well worth the investment!
I am constantly changing cd's in my TT. I have my 10 disks in the hatch and a cd head-unit in the dash. This is perfect ... for me and I am sure it would be perfect for others as well.
7. The Concert head-unit is a non-standard DIN unit, but a few companies have been making a plate that fills in the gaps left empty when using a standard DIN head-unit. I had mine custom made, but most will not have to go to this length and expense.
8. The Concert head-unit ONLY looks right in the Cabin as Mark put it because of two things:
a. The display is RED.
b. The unit itself is black.
My Kenwood is Black and has the same Red display as the rest of my TT. Everyone that has seen it says it is a perfect match. All someone will have to do is shop around and ask if the unit can be changed to a red display, the rest is of course owner preferance.
9. The last thing mentioned is reconfiguring the head-unit with the VAG tool. This is the ONE item that really has bothered me about the Bose setup and has confirmed my replacing the entire system.
If the Bose Audio option is as good as quite a few have touted, why are so many have the fader turned on, the bass and treble controls upped from +5 to +6?
This just tells me that the Bose system as it comes in the TT is not very good and is lacking in all of these areas.
I listen to music and want to keep the controls flat, or raise what needs to be raised, but NOT max out any of my controls like it seems most Bose TT owners have to do to get any sort of halfway decent sound out of their stereos.
This is counter-productive to getting even part-way nice sound out of the car.
If you are getting ready to order or have already placed your orded and it won't delay things any further, you are better off saving the $1200 and spending it on an aftermarket stereo for the TT.
I hope nobody think I was or am getting defensive about this, I honestly am not. I did what I did because I just happened to have one of the worst car stereos I had ever heard in my entire life! I have listened to well over 20 other TT Bose installs and mine sounded just as different and bad as the others sounded.
One last point I need to make about the Bose stereo setup:
If Bose tunes these things to sound "perfect", how come EVERYONE I have EVER heard sounds totally different from one another? No two sound the same! This should not be, the cars are identical. We have even used the SAME cd to compare apples to apples. Still some sound better than others, but NONE sound very good.
Can anyone answer that question?
Thanks. My $.02.
<p><a href="http://registry.audiworld.com/audi/registry/details.asp?car=3285"><img SRC="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/AudiWorldPics/2000/ttsig.jpg" BORDER=0 alt="Click for Mods"></a><a HREF="http://larrytt.tripod.com">Larry's TTQ WebSite