Timing belt pulleys are toast!!

CrowSS · 05-02-2011, 05:41 AM

I have a 1996 A4 Quattro 2.8L

So last summer I ended up driving a long distance on a Sunday to get back home. The timing belt was making noises and I didn't know the damage I could do if I continued to run it and the belt broke. I got about an hour from home and at 65-70 MPH it died. I pulled over immediately and figured the belt broke.
I had it brought home on a flatbed and ended up getting a "beater" to drive while I fixed the Audi. Well it has obviously been at my leisure to fix it, but I was finally to the point yesterday that I could inspect the timing belt area. (I was planning on having to do the heads and valves.)

Regardless, I dug far enough into it and found out that my belt did NOT break. It appears that the pulleys are toast as evidenced by the bearings I found under the crank pulley. The belt shows signs of severe rubbing/chaffing on the back side, due to one or both of the pulleys seizing up.

What is the best way to check and ensure the timing is still "on"?

I have a Bentley on CD-ROM, but I haven't checked their procedure yet.

CrowSS · 05-02-2011, 11:55 AM

So after some reading and what-not, I am still unclear as to how to check the timing.

Here's what I see so far:

-Position crank timing marks to ensure TDC
-Hold position with crank pin tool in crank sensor hole
-Attach cam sprocket tool to keep cams aligned
-Remove sprockets from cam shafts (not completely unless doing cam seals)

Does removing the sprockets allow the valve springs to close all valves and "force" the cams into a perfect position relative to TDC on the crank?

I'm at a loss to see if the engine is out of time, how to verify where the cams should be.

CrowSS · 05-02-2011, 12:44 PM

Sorry, I can't see where to edit my posts, so I am triple posting.

I have found that the cam sprockets should have larger ovals facing inward when the crank is aligned at TDC. I guess I will attempt to turn by hand with the current damage and see how close the cams are and/or if there is any interference with the valves.

hubturn · 05-03-2011, 02:50 PM

Your thinking about the valve springs is a bit off, but I understand the fear. Breaking the sprockets free allows you to replace the timing belt and remove the slack in it prior to tightening the sprocket bolts. With the crank pin in at TDC, and the cam tool aligning the cams, it is pretty tough to get the timing off. Still, you hand crank over the engine to make sure valves are not hitting pistons. The cam locking plates only go on one way, and you can use those to turn the cam shaft into correct position. Yes, it is scary the first time, particularly since the left bank (as looking at it from the front) sits on the peak of one lobe and wants to jump out of position. Just turn it back. Go to www.12v.org for some detailed "How to" info. Bravo on getting the vibration damper bolts out. Replace them if they are rounded out. It looks like you have a new water pump, based on how shiny the pully is. Just for info, the tensioner is moved by placing a allen socket wrench in the octagon shaped hole just above the bolt head in your photo and levering it to the side.

CrowSS · 05-05-2011, 10:39 AM

So last night I cranked the engine over 1.5 full revs. After I put the damper and plastic TDC indicator back on, I saw that it stopped exactly on the mark! Well, almost. The cams were 180 out, so I turned it over to true TDC. No problems. I wanted to make sure the valves were okay so I went all the around (timing wise) once more. No noises, no stops, no interference. All seems okay in regards to internal parts.
The longer I look at the carnage, the more I see what the former "owner" did. He did say that the TB and WP were replaced when I bought from him. (I asked for a receipt, but never got one.) More to see the date of when it was done. I now see that indeed that was done, but the tension roller is clearly OLD (it's rusted solid) and the idler roller has puked it's bearings. Leading me to guess that it is OLD as well. (Either that or the dude ran a washer over the engine to make it look clean and soaked them.)
So thankfully my God was smiling down on me that day and ended my trip before the belt actually broke. I would guess due to the "new-ness" of the belt, is why it didn't.
So I'm looking at a TB kit from Blauparts, with tool rental; along with the intake mods Lago has written about and finally a transmission fluid change. Hopefully back and running by the start of Summer.

CrowSS · 03-13-2012, 12:21 PM

Almost one year later! Yikes. Anyways, I recently got it all back together and gave it a trial run with the front end still off in case anything major went wrong.
It started and ran. However I have a "clacking" coming from the passenger side head area.
I am led to believe that it is:
1) Possible lifter/tappet/cam follower noise?
2) Possible timing being off?

It HAS been sitting for well over a year now. Chances of lifters not operating properly?

Otherwise I am concerned with the position of the passenger side cam due to it "moving" while replacing the cam seals. I "moved" it back into what I thought was it's proper position prior to locking the cam sprockets back down during TB install, but it COULD be off slightly.

What would actual valve interference noise sound like compared to lifter noise?

Compression shows 120-140 for all cylinders.
Don't know oil pressure on passenger side. Anyone know how to check?

CrowSS · 03-13-2012, 12:39 PM

OK, it's been so long, I forgot that the "wing washers" have a flat that lines up with the cam shaft. So it can't be "off" in regards to timing.
I guess that leaves lifters and/or oil pressure huh?

Prospeeder · 03-13-2012, 05:46 PM

drive it, the lifters wont quiet down for awhile. How on earth did you not bend all the valves??

CRAZY_RUSSIAN · 03-14-2012, 12:10 AM

good question, he might of just gotten lucky. anyways, the ticking... change your oil before you go on driving, then let it idle for about 30 minutes, the ticking should stop, if not, you got problems

grillage · 03-14-2012, 07:41 AM

Does it sound like this?

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...ighlight=noise

03-13-2012, 05:46 PM	#8
Prospeeder AudiWorld Senior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 837	drive it, the lifters wont quiet down for awhile. How on earth did you not bend all the valves?? __________________ 1992 Audi 100 CS Quattro 1990 Audi 200 Avant Turbo Quattro 1991 Audi 200 Turbo 1999 Audi A6 Avant

03-14-2012, 12:10 AM	#9
CRAZY_RUSSIAN AudiWorld Super User 1993 Audi 90 My Garage Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque,NM Posts: 2,050	good question, he might of just gotten lucky. anyways, the ticking... change your oil before you go on driving, then let it idle for about 30 minutes, the ticking should stop, if not, you got problems __________________ 1993 Audi 90CS Quattro (loving it) new front struts, 034 control arm bushings, tie rods. mount savers. B5 sport rear springs/socks, B5 sport swaybar, B5 upper a-arms, 034street density trans mounts,17" ASA, head lights, aux gauges. blue plasma instrument cluster, A4 3 spoke steering wheel, aluminum subframe mounts) replaced a motor at the end of 2008, gasket matched heads, ARP head studs, air box velocity stack, 4 to 3 wire MAF conversion, 18.5lbs flywheel with SPEC stage 2 clutch. 1975 VW bus (gone) 1973 VW Super Beetle (what was i thinking?) 1968 VW Bug (my pride and joy) 2.5 inch front drop and disk brake conversion, 2110cc motor (in progress)new wiring harness,3 inch wider fenders all around, 195/45r15 front and 195/65r15 rear tiers 1991 GMC Sonoma RWD, manual, 4 banger (gone) 1979 Suzuki GS750EN with 31k original miles 1981 Suzuki GS750L (will be on a chopping block for a bobber) 1981 Yamaha XV920 1983 Yamaha XV750 (for g.f.) 1985 Dnepr MT10-36 (stolen) 1992 Dnepr MT11-32 (also stolen)

03-14-2012, 07:41 AM	#10
grillage AudiWorld Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Cincinnati OH Posts: 407	Does it sound like this? http://forums.audiworld.com/showthre...ighlight=noise __________________ 1994 Audi Cabriolet (now with 5 speed!) 1994 Audi Cabriolet - the really really crappy one 1995.5 Audi S6 1993 Audi 90 CS Quattro (sold)

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05-02-2011, 11:55 AM	#2
CrowSS Audiworld Junior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12	So after some reading and what-not, I am still unclear as to how to check the timing. Here's what I see so far: -Position crank timing marks to ensure TDC -Hold position with crank pin tool in crank sensor hole -Attach cam sprocket tool to keep cams aligned -Remove sprockets from cam shafts (not completely unless doing cam seals) Does removing the sprockets allow the valve springs to close all valves and "force" the cams into a perfect position relative to TDC on the crank? I'm at a loss to see if the engine is out of time, how to verify where the cams should be.

05-02-2011, 12:44 PM	#3
CrowSS Audiworld Junior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12	Sorry, I can't see where to edit my posts, so I am triple posting. I have found that the cam sprockets should have larger ovals facing inward when the crank is aligned at TDC. I guess I will attempt to turn by hand with the current damage and see how close the cams are and/or if there is any interference with the valves.

05-03-2011, 02:50 PM	#4
hubturn AudiWorld Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 449	Your thinking about the valve springs is a bit off, but I understand the fear. Breaking the sprockets free allows you to replace the timing belt and remove the slack in it prior to tightening the sprocket bolts. With the crank pin in at TDC, and the cam tool aligning the cams, it is pretty tough to get the timing off. Still, you hand crank over the engine to make sure valves are not hitting pistons. The cam locking plates only go on one way, and you can use those to turn the cam shaft into correct position. Yes, it is scary the first time, particularly since the left bank (as looking at it from the front) sits on the peak of one lobe and wants to jump out of position. Just turn it back. Go to www.12v.org for some detailed "How to" info. Bravo on getting the vibration damper bolts out. Replace them if they are rounded out. It looks like you have a new water pump, based on how shiny the pully is. Just for info, the tensioner is moved by placing a allen socket wrench in the octagon shaped hole just above the bolt head in your photo and levering it to the side.

05-05-2011, 10:39 AM	#5
CrowSS Audiworld Junior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12	So last night I cranked the engine over 1.5 full revs. After I put the damper and plastic TDC indicator back on, I saw that it stopped exactly on the mark! Well, almost. The cams were 180 out, so I turned it over to true TDC. No problems. I wanted to make sure the valves were okay so I went all the around (timing wise) once more. No noises, no stops, no interference. All seems okay in regards to internal parts. The longer I look at the carnage, the more I see what the former "owner" did. He did say that the TB and WP were replaced when I bought from him. (I asked for a receipt, but never got one.) More to see the date of when it was done. I now see that indeed that was done, but the tension roller is clearly OLD (it's rusted solid) and the idler roller has puked it's bearings. Leading me to guess that it is OLD as well. (Either that or the dude ran a washer over the engine to make it look clean and soaked them.) So thankfully my God was smiling down on me that day and ended my trip before the belt actually broke. I would guess due to the "new-ness" of the belt, is why it didn't. So I'm looking at a TB kit from Blauparts, with tool rental; along with the intake mods Lago has written about and finally a transmission fluid change. Hopefully back and running by the start of Summer.

03-13-2012, 12:21 PM	#6
CrowSS Audiworld Junior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12	Almost one year later! Yikes. Anyways, I recently got it all back together and gave it a trial run with the front end still off in case anything major went wrong. It started and ran. However I have a "clacking" coming from the passenger side head area. I am led to believe that it is: 1) Possible lifter/tappet/cam follower noise? 2) Possible timing being off? It HAS been sitting for well over a year now. Chances of lifters not operating properly? Otherwise I am concerned with the position of the passenger side cam due to it "moving" while replacing the cam seals. I "moved" it back into what I thought was it's proper position prior to locking the cam sprockets back down during TB install, but it COULD be off slightly. What would actual valve interference noise sound like compared to lifter noise? Compression shows 120-140 for all cylinders. Don't know oil pressure on passenger side. Anyone know how to check?

03-13-2012, 12:39 PM	#7
CrowSS Audiworld Junior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 12	OK, it's been so long, I forgot that the "wing washers" have a flat that lines up with the cam shaft. So it can't be "off" in regards to timing. I guess that leaves lifters and/or oil pressure huh?