Diesel Cars Boom in the US; Audi A3, Q7 Make Top 10 List

[toovo1985]

Hi guys, I'm from Portugal and I would like anyone to explain me why haven't diesel engines ever had success in America? Is it because of the specificies of american cars? If anyone would care to answer my question I would be thankful

[Kris Hansen]

Several reasons. Perception that they are slow/noisy/dirty is a big one. People think they don't have any power, which is not true. People think they can't get diesel fuel in as many places, which is partially true.

The big thing we have against us is our fuel here is MUCH less potent than the fuel in Germany and other countries. So bad in fact that Audi had to significantly re-tune the 3.0 TDI in the Q7 so that it would run on our rot gut fuel. The bigger engines have no hope of running on it apparently.

This is a shame really, having had the chance to drive the 4.2 TDI in the A8, the new diesels are truly great and would be perfect for the American driving style.

[kristatos]

Originally Posted by toovo1985

Hi guys,

I'm from Portugal and I would like anyone to explain me why haven't diesel engines ever had success in America? Is it because of the specificies of american cars?

If anyone would care to answer my question I would be thankful

I think part of the problem is perception as already pointed out, while a significant other reason for slow uptake of the newer diesels is availability. I had to drive 100mi to get my Q7 TDI in Southern California and there were 6 or so Audi dealers closer that had at most one TDI that was nowhere close to what I was looking for - mostly they had the gasoline V8. A friend of mine who bought a VW Jetta TDI had the same problem - dealers received so little inventory she ended up settling for a car that wasn't quite 100% of what she wanted just to get a TDI when one showed up. She was in Chicago, so not like she's in a backwater where you'd expect to have trouble finding the car you want.

It seems to me like Audi is more dipping toes in the water to see if it's warm or cold, rather than just going all in. The TDIs in Californian and Chicago get snapped up super quick, so it would seem Audi and their dealers should be shifting inventory to reflect the trend.

[Sundowner]

Originally Posted by toovo1985

Hi guys,

I'm from Portugal and I would like anyone to explain me why haven't diesel engines ever had success in America? Is it because of the specificies of american cars?

If anyone would care to answer my question I would be thankful

It's not popular in America partially due to the fact that a diesel engine is almost just not worth the hassle. Our government taxes diesel higher than petrol, making it (usually) more expensive per gallon at the pump. Diesel engines also cost more, about $1300 over a petrol engine. If I'm paying $2.60 for regular gas in a car that gets 30 mpg, and $2.80 for diesel in a car that gets 40 mpg, and I drive 15,000 miles per year, it'll take me more than five (5) years to make the initial $1300 investment worth it. Right there, that blows the equation out of the water, since most Americans lease cars now, and lease terms are usually about 3 years long. Why pay extra for a car that I'll never see the money back out of?

I love diesels in concept, and I even own one, but I have a hard time justifying the purchase to anyone else. This is really a problem for Audi and VW who already offer a few wonderful and rather efficient petrol motors like the turbo'd 2.0T and the super'd 3.0T.

[toovo1985]

Originally Posted by Sundowner

It's not popular in America partially due to the fact that a diesel engine is almost just not worth the hassle. Our government taxes diesel higher than petrol, making it (usually) more expensive per gallon at the pump. Diesel engines also cost more, about $1300 over a petrol engine. If I'm paying $2.60 for regular gas in a car that gets 30 mpg, and $2.80 for diesel in a car that gets 40 mpg, and I drive 15,000 miles per year, it'll take me more than five (5) years to make the initial $1300 investment worth it. Right there, that blows the equation out of the water, since most Americans lease cars now, and lease terms are usually about 3 years long. Why pay extra for a car that I'll never see the money back out of?

I love diesels in concept, and I even own one, but I have a hard time justifying the purchase to anyone else. This is really a problem for Audi and VW who already offer a few wonderful and rather efficient petrol motors like the turbo'd 2.0T and the super'd 3.0T.

Thank you so much for the explanation

[kristatos]

Originally Posted by Sundowner

Our government taxes diesel higher than petrol, making it (usually) more expensive per gallon at the pump.

Honestly I don't understand diesel pricing at all. It is often lower than gasoline and sometimes the same or a bit higher per gallon. Currently where I live it's about the cost of mid-grade petrol. I would think auto-makers that have diesel engines in their lineup would lobby for parity on taxing if they really are taxed higher than petrol as part of their move towards higher fleet mpg targets.

Also, your other excellent point on the cost of the vehicle and ROI being 5 years out is certainly valid but why wouldn't those economics apply in other countries where diesels are prevalent?

I've also heard the same argument made on hybrids - that the increased cost of the vehicle isn't paid back in savings at the pump, but that didn't stop the Prius and other hybrids from selling like crazy. So, I think there is some other force at work here...

[Sundowner]

Originally Posted by kristatos

Honestly I don't understand diesel pricing at all. It is often lower than gasoline and sometimes the same or a bit higher per gallon. Currently where I live it's about the cost of mid-grade petrol. I would think auto-makers that have diesel engines in their lineup would lobby for parity on taxing if they really are taxed higher than petrol as part of their move towards higher fleet mpg targets.

Also, your other excellent point on the cost of the vehicle and ROI being 5 years out is certainly valid but why wouldn't those economics apply in other countries where diesels are prevalent?

I've also heard the same argument made on hybrids - that the increased cost of the vehicle isn't paid back in savings at the pump, but that didn't stop the Prius and other hybrids from selling like crazy. So, I think there is some other force at work here...

whenever you look at diesel fuel you have to understand one basic thing: cars aren't the only ones using it. Diesel fuel is (essentially) the same thing as heating oil. Petrol is (for the most part) only used by cars. When it's cold out there, and you're buying against home owners that HAVE to keep the house warm, the price of diesel goes up, usually over and above premium petrol. In the summer, when all the home furnances shut down, diesel can drop down closer to regular petrol, like it is right now.

Automakers have lobbied for DECADES to raise the petrol tax and/or cut the diesel tax for a variety reasons, mostly as a market driven hedge against the silly CAFE rules the gov't heaps on all of us. Americans love cars and they hate taxes. Adversely affecting either is political suicide, and the pols know it. Diesel it taxed higer than gas becuase it's predominantly used by commercial entities, and is therefore politically feasible. Taxing petrol affects "the little guy" and is therefore politically not feasible. Just a fact of political life.

In other developed countries, diesel is preferred over petrol becuase they tax the crap out of all auto fuels and always have, and at $5-$8per gallon, the economics of engine choice shift, and paying $1300 more for a diesel engine pays off in about 2 years instead of 6.

why does the Prius sell like crazy? Two reasons: it's a status car, and it's cheap. Toyota got it right with the Prius not becuase its a wonder car, but becuause its a highly recognizable stand-alone model. People buy a Prius beucase its sends an eco-friendly "look at me" message, and it does it for the paltry sum of about $25k. Now that the Prius cachet has been established, it's the go-to greenie car, regardless of personal income. Prius owners are just as likely to make $150k/yr as they are $40k/yr, and the buying public knows that.

Other hybrids are just versions of petrol cars, and don't get the same street cred becuase people can't see how cool you are just sitting in traffic. Hybrid versions of the Ford Escape, Altima, Fusion, and even the Honda Insight (rip-off Prius) can't touch the Prius for sales numbers, even when you add them all together.

And again, just from a numbers standpoint, the Prius wins against the the Jetta TDI, which is cheaper than the A3 TDI by thousands. The sticker on my 2010 Jetta sportwagen was over $27k. The sticker on my father in law's 2010 Prius was $25k. The Prius whips my Jetta by at least 8-10 mpg on the average, and it uses cheaper regular gas. From a $/mile basis, the Jetta would have to step it's game from 40 mpg to 60 mpg just to be competitive running on mor expensive diesel fuel.

as a very slight aside, here's something I bet you never thought about: your non-toll roads and bridges are designed, built, maintained, and operated using fuel tax that you pay on a per-gallon basis. Everytime the gov't jacks-up CAFE, those revenues drop, and concrete and steel isn't getting any cheaper. Every year, departments of transportation have to do more with less and less. I'm a bridge engineer in a state with the 4th or 5th lowest gas tax in the nation. Our roads and bridges are falling apart, but its easier to let a few people die than to raise the gas tax. I know it sounds melodramatic, but it's a basic fact of life.

[kristatos]

Originally Posted by Sundowner

whenever you look at diesel fuel you have to understand one basic thing: cars aren't the only ones using it. Diesel fuel is (essentially) the same thing as heating oil. Petrol is (for the most part) only used by cars. When it's cold out there, and you're buying against home owners that HAVE to keep the house warm, the price of diesel goes up, usually over and above premium petrol. In the summer, when all the home furnances shut down, diesel can drop down closer to regular petrol, like it is right now.

In other developed countries, diesel is preferred over petrol becuase they tax the crap out of all auto fuels and always have, and at $5-$8per gallon, the economics of engine choice shift, and paying $1300 more for a diesel engine pays off in about 2 years instead of 6.

why does the Prius sell like crazy? Two reasons: it's a status car, and it's cheap. Toyota got it right with the Prius not becuase its a wonder car, but becuause its a highly recognizable stand-alone model. People buy a Prius beucase its sends an eco-friendly "look at me" message, and it does it for the paltry sum of about $25k. Now that the Prius cachet has been established, it's the go-to greenie car, regardless of personal income. Prius owners are just as likely to make $150k/yr as they are $40k/yr, and the buying public knows that.

Other hybrids are just versions of petrol cars, and don't get the same street cred becuase people can't see how cool you are just sitting in traffic. Hybrid versions of the Ford Escape, Altima, Fusion, and even the Honda Insight (rip-off Prius) can't touch the Prius for sales numbers, even when you add them all together.

I can buy the argument on diesel fuel in cold climates but a lot of the country lives in warmer areas and diesel fuel doesn't cost more in the winter where I live - it tracks with gasoline.

Also, the Jetta Sportswagon vs Prius seems to be a comparison made to fit your conclusion. A base Jetta TDI is less than a base Prius, a loaded Jetta TDI is less money than a loaded Prius, going by MSRP. My point was that when the Prius was launched people were lining up to pay a premium for them because at that time fuel was expensive. So they weren't cheap yet they did catch on and I would argue because they were marketed successfully. All your ranting on taxes on fuel just reinforces why the original question is intriguing - why don't more people drive diesel cars here?

My belief is that most consumers don't perform sophisticated financial calculations - they do some basic math and buy what they want at the end of the day and use the available data to justify their decision. I agree most Prius owners probably bought them more to feel good about their car than for pure financial reasons. In California many people bought them for a while simply to get access to carpool lanes without having to actually carpool - another brilliant stroke in lobbying/marketing by Toyota. Audi/VW and other diesel manufacturers in North America barely do anything to market their diesel offerings. Toyota Prius has more marketing presence than every diesel model combined by far. Nissan Leaf has more press pre-launch than anything diesel powered that I can recall.

I think the average consumer in the market for an efficient car or who will pay a premium for a fuel efficient vehicle (like in the case of a Highlander Hybrid or so on) don't consider diesel cars because they aren't even aware they are an option unless they are buying a VW.

[Sundowner]

Originally Posted by kristatos

I can buy the argument on diesel fuel in cold climates but a lot of the country lives in warmer areas and diesel fuel doesn't cost more in the winter where I live - it tracks with gasoline.

Also, the Jetta Sportswagon vs Prius seems to be a comparison made to fit your conclusion. A base Jetta TDI is less than a base Prius, a loaded Jetta TDI is less money than a loaded Prius, going by MSRP. My point was that when the Prius was launched people were lining up to pay a premium for them because at that time fuel was expensive. So they weren't cheap yet they did catch on and I would argue because they were marketed successfully. All your ranting on taxes on fuel just reinforces why the original question is intriguing - why don't more people drive diesel cars here?

My belief is that most consumers don't perform sophisticated financial calculations - they do some basic math and buy what they want at the end of the day and use the available data to justify their decision. I agree most Prius owners probably bought them more to feel good about their car than for pure financial reasons. In California many people bought them for a while simply to get access to carpool lanes without having to actually carpool - another brilliant stroke in lobbying/marketing by Toyota. Audi/VW and other diesel manufacturers in North America barely do anything to market their diesel offerings. Toyota Prius has more marketing presence than every diesel model combined by far. Nissan Leaf has more press pre-launch than anything diesel powered that I can recall.

I think the average consumer in the market for an efficient car or who will pay a premium for a fuel efficient vehicle (like in the case of a Highlander Hybrid or so on) don't consider diesel cars because they aren't even aware they are an option unless they are buying a VW.

your first and second points can easily be answered. People who don't care to do any math don't buy diesel cars becuause diesel costs more at the pump than regualr gasoline. Maybe where you live that's different, but on a national level, it's otherwise true. The feds tax gas ata rate of 18.4 cents/gal, diesel at 24.4 cents/gal. why buy a car that uses a more expensive fuel? that doesn't make sense at first blush.

I do not consider your argument on the average consuumer being willing to pay more for a fuel efficient vehicle to be valid. It has not proven true. People buy the biggest cheapest cars they think they can afford, and that has proven out rather well. Just look at what's on the road. The only fuel efficent cars that command a premium car price are ones that have status attached to them like a Prius or a TDI. (you can say the TDI is poorly marketed, but it's hard to say that it doesn't have a gearhead insider cult car status.)

And by your argument, if people "really" did the math, we'd all be driving Honda Fits, beucase at 40 mpg and a wicked low starting price, that's your best $/mile vehicle out there. No one would be driving a TDI or a Prius.

[kristatos]

This is exactly what I am saying - people don't buy "by the math" or we'd all drive the same econobox and drag a trailer when we need to haul stuff. Americans bought lots of big SUVs and trucks in the 80s and 90s because those cars and the fuel they run on were cheap enough.

Look at the thread in the A3 forum - TDIs (and diesels in general) account already for a significant percentage of sales within a model. For some cars like A3 and Volkswagen Jetta the diesel version of the car sells as much as the gasoline version. You haven't convinced me that these cars are not compelling to the average consumer and as they are marketed more aggressively and more models come available in diesel we could see wider adoption - for sure there are still obstacles but in a lot of ways diesel makes as much if not more sense than a hybrid.

Originally Posted by Sundowner

And by your argument, if people "really" did the math, we'd all be driving Honda Fits, beucase at 40 mpg and a wicked low starting price, that's your best $/mile vehicle out there. No one would be driving a TDI or a Prius.