Request for additional oil analysis from RS4 owners for oil fuel dilution study

RI A6 · 02-08-2007, 07:02 AM

Thus far we have an oil analysis database with the results from 4 different RS4 owners, using Dyson Analysis as the lab, and one using Blackstone, encompassing 18 total samples across 12000 miles of operation. Ideally, I would like to see many more owners taking periodic oil samples, with the various oils being used, so that we develop a comprehensive record on this engine. In addition, I would like to see everyone using Dyson Analysis, so that the results are consistent, repeatable, and accurate. Terry Dyson has spent a significant number of hours of consulting on this problem for me already.

Currently we have analysis results on the following oils:

Factory Fill
Amsoil Euro 5W-40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Motul 8100 E-tech 0W-40

Here's the deal. I am currently doing a study on ways to mitigate the oil fuel dilution problem with the FSI V8 engine, and in ways to protect us with Audi of America, should serious engine problems begin to appear in the future. At this point, AoA fails to acknowledge that a problem exists, and has issued a canned response to me, which is exactly what they have to to for liability reasons. However, they are quite aware that they are being watched closely, and that a significant oil analysis record exists, from which they cannot hide.

I would like as many owners to participate as possible. We currently have no data on Mobil One 0W-40, Castrol Syntec 5W-50, or Castrol TXT 5W-40, that I know quite a few owners are using. For those that do choose to have analysis done at Dyson Analysis, if you send your analysis results to me, after they are completed, I will in return, provide you with access to the full database of results, and any future proprietary recommendations for oil, oil additives, and fuel additves.

crew219 · 02-08-2007, 07:22 AM

I can send u a few of my 2.0t UOAs if you're interested.

Dave

RI A6 · 02-08-2007, 07:45 AM

If I recall correctly, I saw one of your UOAs on BITOG a while back. It had some pretty nasty stuff going on.

Verr did talk to some Porsche engine designers a few months back, who indicated that the 1st generation of Audi FSI engines did have signficant known problems with fuel dilution. I suspect that includes your engine. The 2nd generation is supposed to reduce the problem. But obviously the problem is not completely solved.

I agree with you that this may be the reality for these engines, and many DI engines. However, there are some potential ways to mitigate the problem. The wisest course of action IMO at this time is to present it to AoA as a potential problem, and continue to document it. If it turns into a debacle like the oil sludge issue, then they were forewarned.

You might want to contact Terry and have him do a read on your analysis results. (I assume you used Blackstone) For a bit more cost, I believe he will be willing to make some recommendations based on his work with me. I suspect that some of the work we've done is applicable. There is some testing that I've commenced recently which will tell us quite a bit about whether we're on the right track, soon.

crew219 · 02-08-2007, 07:58 AM

I don't think there's any need for Dyson analysis in my case. The increase in dilution in the 2nd UOA was merely due to excessive winter idling, and fuel flooding the cylinders during a no-start after storing the vehicle for a month. The decrease in wear metals is significant, but can be debated as to whether it was caused by the different oil, or the engine being broken in.

The amsoil 5w40 lost viscosity and flashpoint significantly, compared to the 0w30 GC, but that could mainly be due to the increased fuel dilution.

My driving is about 80-90% city stop & go, and my trips are generally no longer than 10 miles. Given my results, I am probably going to stick to a 3500mi OCI and continue to change with either the 0w30 GC or 5w40 amsoil. With such a short OCI, the type of 502 oil used is inconsequential.

Dave

RI A6 · 02-08-2007, 08:16 AM

They do not use FTIR. I've even seen them blow flashpoint in one of my samples, which should be easy. Your Manganese numbers are incredibly high, indicating huge fuel dilution, although the Amsoil is fighting it rather well, as evidenced by lower iron wear, when compared to the previous sample.

crew219 · 02-08-2007, 08:39 AM

Didn't run it in the first OCI.

Dave

Silver Fun · 02-08-2007, 05:52 PM

the fix if there is a problem, but I'm not sure a comprehensive oil analysis is something I am going to understand. I do plan on keeping this car for a while so anything to help the long term wear and tear on the engine would be appreciated. My oil is the dealer's 0W-40 Castrol Syntec, now with about 2000 miles on it.

adg44 · 02-09-2007, 06:36 AM

02-08-2007, 07:22 AM	#2
crew219 AudiWorld Super User Garage is empty, add now Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,920	I think fuel dilution is just a reality for any high compression, high revving FSI engine. I can send u a few of my 2.0t UOAs if you're interested. Dave __________________ tyranny and anarchy are never far apart

02-08-2007, 07:45 AM	#3
RI A6 AudiWorld Super User Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,198	Love to see them, Dave If I recall correctly, I saw one of your UOAs on BITOG a while back. It had some pretty nasty stuff going on. Verr did talk to some Porsche engine designers a few months back, who indicated that the 1st generation of Audi FSI engines did have signficant known problems with fuel dilution. I suspect that includes your engine. The 2nd generation is supposed to reduce the problem. But obviously the problem is not completely solved. I agree with you that this may be the reality for these engines, and many DI engines. However, there are some potential ways to mitigate the problem. The wisest course of action IMO at this time is to present it to AoA as a potential problem, and continue to document it. If it turns into a debacle like the oil sludge issue, then they were forewarned. You might want to contact Terry and have him do a read on your analysis results. (I assume you used Blackstone) For a bit more cost, I believe he will be willing to make some recommendations based on his work with me. I suspect that some of the work we've done is applicable. There is some testing that I've commenced recently which will tell us quite a bit about whether we're on the right track, soon. __________________ _________________________________ 2008 A6 3.2L FSI Light Silver Metallic/Black Renewable Lubes Biosyn 5W-40 L.L. Bean fleece dog blanket _________________________________ Gone but not forgotten 2007 RS4 Daytona Gray/Silver Bridgestone RE01-R tires H-Sport sway bars Ferodo DS2500 pads Milltek non-resonated catbacks Milltek downpipes Renewable Lubes Biosyn 5W-40 L.L. Bean fleece dog blanket _________________________________

02-08-2007, 07:58 AM	#4
crew219 AudiWorld Super User Garage is empty, add now Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,920	Here I don't think there's any need for Dyson analysis in my case. The increase in dilution in the 2nd UOA was merely due to excessive winter idling, and fuel flooding the cylinders during a no-start after storing the vehicle for a month. The decrease in wear metals is significant, but can be debated as to whether it was caused by the different oil, or the engine being broken in. The amsoil 5w40 lost viscosity and flashpoint significantly, compared to the 0w30 GC, but that could mainly be due to the increased fuel dilution. My driving is about 80-90% city stop & go, and my trips are generally no longer than 10 miles. Given my results, I am probably going to stick to a 3500mi OCI and continue to change with either the 0w30 GC or 5w40 amsoil. With such a short OCI, the type of 502 oil used is inconsequential. Dave __________________ tyranny and anarchy are never far apart

02-08-2007, 08:16 AM	#5
RI A6 AudiWorld Super User Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,198	Be aware that Blackstone does not accurately measure fuel dilution They do not use FTIR. I've even seen them blow flashpoint in one of my samples, which should be easy. Your Manganese numbers are incredibly high, indicating huge fuel dilution, although the Amsoil is fighting it rather well, as evidenced by lower iron wear, when compared to the previous sample. __________________ _________________________________ 2008 A6 3.2L FSI Light Silver Metallic/Black Renewable Lubes Biosyn 5W-40 L.L. Bean fleece dog blanket _________________________________ Gone but not forgotten 2007 RS4 Daytona Gray/Silver Bridgestone RE01-R tires H-Sport sway bars Ferodo DS2500 pads Milltek non-resonated catbacks Milltek downpipes Renewable Lubes Biosyn 5W-40 L.L. Bean fleece dog blanket _________________________________

02-08-2007, 08:39 AM	#6
crew219 AudiWorld Super User Garage is empty, add now Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,920	The manganese was from octane booster (MMT). Didn't run it in the first OCI. Dave __________________ tyranny and anarchy are never far apart

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02-08-2007, 05:52 PM	#7
Silver Fun AudiWorld Senior Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,062	If we send it to Dyson can they just cc the results to you. I would like to be in on .... the fix if there is a problem, but I'm not sure a comprehensive oil analysis is something I am going to understand. I do plan on keeping this car for a while so anything to help the long term wear and tear on the engine would be appreciated. My oil is the dealer's 0W-40 Castrol Syntec, now with about 2000 miles on it.

02-09-2007, 06:36 AM	#8
adg44 AudiWorld Member Garage is empty, add now Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 540	I'll give you a M1 0w40 sample in a few months.... __________________ 2007 Audi RS 4 Imola Yellow, Premium Package

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