New to Audis
09-20-2010, 09:54 AM
#1
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New to Audis
'Lo all.
Just acquired an '87 4KQ in Zermatt silver, with 141K on her.
Overall she's running pretty well, other than a bi to flifter tick, but I'll address that down the road.
This is my first Audi, I'm mostly a SAAB guy, so I had questions about where people find/buy parts. It's pretty easy to get parts (even OEM) for older SAABs via several online parts houses, is there anything like this for older Audi's?
Also, cosmetically, the biggest thing wrong with the car is that both drivers side outside door handles are fsked. I'm planning on buying Bentley manual soon, does that cover stuff like door handle replacement?
Looking forward to playing with quattro in the snow!
Just acquired an '87 4KQ in Zermatt silver, with 141K on her.
Overall she's running pretty well, other than a bi to flifter tick, but I'll address that down the road.
This is my first Audi, I'm mostly a SAAB guy, so I had questions about where people find/buy parts. It's pretty easy to get parts (even OEM) for older SAABs via several online parts houses, is there anything like this for older Audi's?
Also, cosmetically, the biggest thing wrong with the car is that both drivers side outside door handles are fsked. I'm planning on buying Bentley manual soon, does that cover stuff like door handle replacement?
Looking forward to playing with quattro in the snow!
09-20-2010, 11:29 AM
#2
AudiWorld Senior Member
Well, the first thing you'll learn is that lifter tick is normal with these. 
Usually it's the result of the car sitting for a few days or more, but once you drive it the noise should go away. Since most of these are going to leak a little oil, it's also a good way to tell when to add a quart if the tick doesn't go away or becomes louder.
Some people also use it as a reminder to do an oil change. I don't know how much reality there is to new oil being quieter, but it's something people do. Some people also say different oil weights make the tick louder or quieter, but it's really not a big deal. Call it a benign heart palpitation. Annoying, but it's not going to kill you.
As far as parts, if your local O'Reiley/Autozone/Napa can't get it, my favorite place is Amazon. Once you input your particular car it shows you every part that fits, and they have a huge selection. I mean there's like six different brands of water pumps, probably twice that in timing belts. Between buying local and Amazon there hasn't been anything I haven't been able to find. Although it seems like of all the local parts stores, Autozone is the only one that carries certain things like the coolant temp switch that controls the radiator fan.
There's also Rock Auto, AutohausAZ, 034 Motorsport, et cetera. Some are more geared toward OEM replacements, some are more about performance, so it just depends on what you need. Be sure you check out their shipping prices though, they can really take you for a ride there. Amazon is always free over $25, which makes it easy.
The Bentley manual will definitely cover door handle replacement, but it's pretty easy. For the rears, once you take out the two screws holding the handle it just lifts out and the new one drops back in. For the front doors you have to unhook the lock and latch rods, which involves removing the door panels, as well as swap out the lock cylinders. But it's a good thing to know how to do since the door handles are absolute junk and always break.
It definitely helps to keep the latch and handle lubed up with lithium grease or your favorite non-runny grease.
If you have any other specific questions or concerns, just ask.
BTW, there's nothing better than locking the center diff and playing in the snow or gravel.
-Rog
Usually it's the result of the car sitting for a few days or more, but once you drive it the noise should go away. Since most of these are going to leak a little oil, it's also a good way to tell when to add a quart if the tick doesn't go away or becomes louder.Some people also use it as a reminder to do an oil change. I don't know how much reality there is to new oil being quieter, but it's something people do. Some people also say different oil weights make the tick louder or quieter, but it's really not a big deal. Call it a benign heart palpitation. Annoying, but it's not going to kill you.
As far as parts, if your local O'Reiley/Autozone/Napa can't get it, my favorite place is Amazon. Once you input your particular car it shows you every part that fits, and they have a huge selection. I mean there's like six different brands of water pumps, probably twice that in timing belts. Between buying local and Amazon there hasn't been anything I haven't been able to find. Although it seems like of all the local parts stores, Autozone is the only one that carries certain things like the coolant temp switch that controls the radiator fan.
There's also Rock Auto, AutohausAZ, 034 Motorsport, et cetera. Some are more geared toward OEM replacements, some are more about performance, so it just depends on what you need. Be sure you check out their shipping prices though, they can really take you for a ride there. Amazon is always free over $25, which makes it easy.
The Bentley manual will definitely cover door handle replacement, but it's pretty easy. For the rears, once you take out the two screws holding the handle it just lifts out and the new one drops back in. For the front doors you have to unhook the lock and latch rods, which involves removing the door panels, as well as swap out the lock cylinders. But it's a good thing to know how to do since the door handles are absolute junk and always break.
It definitely helps to keep the latch and handle lubed up with lithium grease or your favorite non-runny grease.If you have any other specific questions or concerns, just ask.
BTW, there's nothing better than locking the center diff and playing in the snow or gravel.
-Rog
Last edited by Rogviler; 09-20-2010 at 11:32 AM.
09-21-2010, 05:05 AM
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Thanks for the info!
Yes, I did notice a little bit of leaking, I think it's the cork valve cover gasket. I noticed that the cam area looks a little sludgy, so I may try a course or two of AutoRx and see if that cleans things up a bit and helps with the lifters.
AutoHausAZ looks like a pretty good resource. I'm kind of surprised there are no parts specialists like IPD for Volvo or eEuroparts for Volvo/SAAB/BMW.
I'll probably tackle the door handles next week.
How about timing belts? What's the service interval? I assume like most cars, when you do the belt, you should replace water pump seals, thermostat, etc, etc.
Yes, I did notice a little bit of leaking, I think it's the cork valve cover gasket. I noticed that the cam area looks a little sludgy, so I may try a course or two of AutoRx and see if that cleans things up a bit and helps with the lifters.
AutoHausAZ looks like a pretty good resource. I'm kind of surprised there are no parts specialists like IPD for Volvo or eEuroparts for Volvo/SAAB/BMW.
I'll probably tackle the door handles next week.
How about timing belts? What's the service interval? I assume like most cars, when you do the belt, you should replace water pump seals, thermostat, etc, etc.
09-21-2010, 10:30 AM
#4
AudiWorld Senior Member
Yeah, if you have a cork valve cover gasket I would get that changed out to a nice rubber one. They're cheap and easy to do, so that's a must. Same with the oil pan gasket. Cork just does not last.
Audi just seems to be really a niche market. I mean, when most people think of European sports cars they think BMW, Porsche, or something Italian, and when they think luxury it's BMW or Mercedes. Family hauler goes to Volvo or Saab. I've never been able to figure out why. Probably that "unintended acceleration" (people being morons) crap didn't help way back in the day.
I would say the closest we have to the companies you mentioned are 2Bennett and 034 Motorsport. They're still not nearly as comprehensive though. But for parts like the shifter linkage bushing that nobody else makes, at least we have them.
You'll definitely get good at cleaning up and repairing old parts, and you'll want to familiarize yourself with the junkyards in your area.
The timing belt is supposed to be done every 60,000 miles or 5 years, but some people go 100,000 or never. I think if they hadn't made it so that you have to remove the threadlocked, 400+ ft/lbs torqued crank bolt with special tools, people would do them more regularly. The danger of course is that if the belt breaks while the engine is running the pistons get a nice valve lunch.
Most people do the water pump at the same time, but it's much less of a pain to change the water pump than the timing belt, so that's up to you. You might as well, since they're only $30-40. Just make sure you're getting one with metal blades. I don't know why they even make the crappy plastic ones. The idler pulley is a good thing to change with the belt. Any other maintenance just depends on the condition of the parts when you inspect them.
Now, the lifter tick... The engine really shouldn't do it all the time except when it's been sitting for awhile. They will pretty much always do it when you first start the car and definitely if it's low on oil.
Some things to try if you really can't stand it or it won't go away even after a few days of hard driving:
VW guys like to put about 50¢ worth (1/2 quart) of diesel fuel into the oil, drive it hard to get it nice and hot, then change the oil. This is supposed to clean out any gunk that could be plugging up the lifters.
You could try switching to a heavier oil, like 20w50.
Next time you change the oil, substitute one quart of ATF (automatic transmission fluid) for a quart of the new oil. ATF has some good anti-varnish and cleaning properties, but doesn't foam like some additives.
You could replace the lifters (which may or may not work) or just check and renew them as per the tutorial here (1/4 the way down):
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=22766
But like I said, it's pretty normal for these engines. I know that with other types of engines, especially those that use lifter rods, it can signal the end of the world, but every old Audi you will ever drive will have it to some degree. I think it's just the way the lifters are designed where they don't get muffled by oil as well.
-Rog
Audi just seems to be really a niche market. I mean, when most people think of European sports cars they think BMW, Porsche, or something Italian, and when they think luxury it's BMW or Mercedes. Family hauler goes to Volvo or Saab. I've never been able to figure out why. Probably that "unintended acceleration" (people being morons) crap didn't help way back in the day.
I would say the closest we have to the companies you mentioned are 2Bennett and 034 Motorsport. They're still not nearly as comprehensive though. But for parts like the shifter linkage bushing that nobody else makes, at least we have them.
You'll definitely get good at cleaning up and repairing old parts, and you'll want to familiarize yourself with the junkyards in your area.
The timing belt is supposed to be done every 60,000 miles or 5 years, but some people go 100,000 or never. I think if they hadn't made it so that you have to remove the threadlocked, 400+ ft/lbs torqued crank bolt with special tools, people would do them more regularly. The danger of course is that if the belt breaks while the engine is running the pistons get a nice valve lunch.
Most people do the water pump at the same time, but it's much less of a pain to change the water pump than the timing belt, so that's up to you. You might as well, since they're only $30-40. Just make sure you're getting one with metal blades. I don't know why they even make the crappy plastic ones. The idler pulley is a good thing to change with the belt. Any other maintenance just depends on the condition of the parts when you inspect them.
Now, the lifter tick... The engine really shouldn't do it all the time except when it's been sitting for awhile. They will pretty much always do it when you first start the car and definitely if it's low on oil.
Some things to try if you really can't stand it or it won't go away even after a few days of hard driving:
VW guys like to put about 50¢ worth (1/2 quart) of diesel fuel into the oil, drive it hard to get it nice and hot, then change the oil. This is supposed to clean out any gunk that could be plugging up the lifters.
You could try switching to a heavier oil, like 20w50.
Next time you change the oil, substitute one quart of ATF (automatic transmission fluid) for a quart of the new oil. ATF has some good anti-varnish and cleaning properties, but doesn't foam like some additives.
You could replace the lifters (which may or may not work) or just check and renew them as per the tutorial here (1/4 the way down):
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=22766
But like I said, it's pretty normal for these engines. I know that with other types of engines, especially those that use lifter rods, it can signal the end of the world, but every old Audi you will ever drive will have it to some degree. I think it's just the way the lifters are designed where they don't get muffled by oil as well.
-Rog
09-21-2010, 01:15 PM
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Awesome, thanks for your help. I'll ask my buddy (from whom I received the car) if he or the PO ever did the timing belt. The car has 141K on it, so I would think it's been done at least once in it's life.
I'm no stranger to valvetrain noise. I have a 74MGBGT that has the noisiest valvetrain ever, and my 8valve SAAB is a solid lifter SOHC motor, so it's not exactly quiet either.
The 4000 sat for more than a year, with only occasional starts. It seemed noisy at first, but got quieter. I did notice that it seemed to come and go a little bit at idle, but disappeared in the upper revs.
I love 80's European cars, I think they mark a high point of engineering, mixed with driving fun, so I'm no stranger to working on 'em between my own cars and my circle of friends.
Volvos, SAABs, Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, all of them were built very robustly, as long as you kept up with the maintenance.
My Bentley arrived today, time to go brush up!
I'm no stranger to valvetrain noise. I have a 74MGBGT that has the noisiest valvetrain ever, and my 8valve SAAB is a solid lifter SOHC motor, so it's not exactly quiet either.
The 4000 sat for more than a year, with only occasional starts. It seemed noisy at first, but got quieter. I did notice that it seemed to come and go a little bit at idle, but disappeared in the upper revs.
I love 80's European cars, I think they mark a high point of engineering, mixed with driving fun, so I'm no stranger to working on 'em between my own cars and my circle of friends.
Volvos, SAABs, Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, all of them were built very robustly, as long as you kept up with the maintenance.
My Bentley arrived today, time to go brush up!
09-21-2010, 03:16 PM
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Actually the JT is a non-interference engine so therefore the valves won't get smacked if the t-belt does happen to break on you. When it comes to the lifter noise it has been my experience over the years that when they are replaced the noise will go away for about 60k miles and then they will slowly start giving you the cold start chatter. If you experience what seems a single knock that comes and goes you would be looking at the rod inside the vacuum pump mounted on the head right by the #2 or #3 spark plug.
This is not any type of attack on you Rog. You seem very knowledgeable about these cars.
This is not any type of attack on you Rog. You seem very knowledgeable about these cars.
09-21-2010, 07:12 PM
#7
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Oh that's right. For some reason I have it in my head that all of Audi's late 80s-90s engines were interference. It doesn't help that I'm currently rebuilding an MC (which is interference like all the turbos) to put in the 4kq...
I'd forgotten about the aux vacuum pump noise. I know a lot of VW guys just remove the rod that's in there, but I've never had that type of noise so I haven't investigated if that's a fix for the Audi engines. That would basically be like removing the pump, without the need to block up a bunch of holes, so it would just depend on how vital the pump is.
-Rog
I'd forgotten about the aux vacuum pump noise. I know a lot of VW guys just remove the rod that's in there, but I've never had that type of noise so I haven't investigated if that's a fix for the Audi engines. That would basically be like removing the pump, without the need to block up a bunch of holes, so it would just depend on how vital the pump is.
-Rog
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09-21-2010, 07:23 PM
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Err, I think you are confused: All the I5s are interference engines, as are the VW fours that they are based off of... It's a really common German design to put the water pump on the T-Belt. What happens normally is not that the T-belt itself breaks due to age(It's a belt... there's not really any reason for it to snap spontaneously...), but that the water pump bearings seize, thus killing the T-belt and valve train / engine internals. Also, think of the timing belt job as insurance against having to do a valve job.
09-21-2010, 07:34 PM
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Err, I think you are confused: All the I5s are interference engines, as are the VW fours that they are based off of... It's a really common German design to put the water pump on the T-Belt. What happens normally is not that the T-belt itself breaks due to age(It's a belt... there's not really any reason for it to snap spontaneously...), but that the water pump bearings seize, thus killing the T-belt and valve train / engine internals. Also, think of the timing belt job as insurance against having to do a valve job.
09-21-2010, 07:47 PM
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The pump is not vital unless you are into extreme hard driving as in tracking it. A general poll would show that almost all if not all people with these cars that have removed the internal rod notice no difference unless there is a terrific demand on the braking system. The time had come many times on my 4kq's and Quantum Syncro's that the rod had to go. Knock was always gone and I live in a rural area of the PNW where I get to drive as these cars should. No problems. The interference engine? JT's are not a problem. NG? Yes All the 20 valves plus the WX as was in my urq (sold) will smack the heck out of the pistons.
Take care Rog
Take care Rog
Last edited by 4corners; 09-21-2010 at 08:03 PM.