StopTech to Brembo Switch (Alcon comparo as well)
09-07-2006, 11:49 AM
#82
AudiWorld Expert
Just want to thank Dan@Stoptech, Ted@StaSIS and the other guy..(I think it is Gary from RT)
For their professional discussion on the big brake systems offered by their respective companies. Thanks for the professionalism.
09-07-2006, 02:14 PM
#84
AudiWorld Expert
Brake test fest? where at...Willow Springs? Buttonwillow? Streets?
Probably not...I am at Sears Point teaching for nasa this weekend. I have been keeping real busy with a new job (been here 15 months..but I am totally swamped)..so my excursions are few and far between. If there are any Buttonwillow events on the weekend..I might be able to make those...just depends on timing.
Sound like you and Tomasz are linked up...hope you all become rich and retire early. Talk to you later.
Steve
Sound like you and Tomasz are linked up...hope you all become rich and retire early. Talk to you later.
Steve
09-07-2006, 02:25 PM
#85
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Re: Brake test fest? where at...Willow Springs? Buttonwillow? Streets?
I've actually never even had a single conversation with Tomasz. I believe he's dealing with one of my other reps. Seems like a pretty good guy though.
Sears Point is such a fun track. Hope you have a great weekend.
I think I'll be at the Steets of willow event. Maybe I'll see ya out there.
Take Care,
G - -
Sears Point is such a fun track. Hope you have a great weekend.
I think I'll be at the Steets of willow event. Maybe I'll see ya out there.
Take Care,
G - -
09-07-2006, 02:39 PM
#86
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Re: Brake test fest? where at...Willow Springs? Buttonwillow? Streets?
It's actually at our Costa Mesa facility on Saturday the 16th of September.
That's the weekend after you'll be at Sears Point.
That's the weekend after you'll be at Sears Point.
09-07-2006, 04:55 PM
#87
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Controlling runout
In the ultra-high performance production-car world, as in racing, a two-piece rotor is attractive for several reasons, including reduced unsprung mass, rotational inertia and management of thermal effects. Accommodating radial expansion so as to prevent coning distortion, preventing the conduction of heat into the wheel bearings, and the opportunity to provide more even cooling to the outside face of the rotor, as is promoted with StopTech's AeroHat, all come into play.
Both our companies are able to control knockback in racing with non-preloaded floating rotor systems, but you have basically said that this is not about knockback, it is about runout, which you describe as "seeking a true centerline."
Careful machining in OE applications can easily control rotor runout at a level that is not a problem in service. Luxury and performance cars at the highest level are able to use one-piece rotors without experiencing any problems, so the benefits of using a lightly preloaded floating mechanism as claimed to further reduce runout dynamically are just that, your company's claim.
StopTech controls runout of our two-piece rotor assemblies to the same standards used by high quality suppliers throughout the braking industry for one-piece rotors. Uneven wear, vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response caused by runout are not an issue for our customers, as they are not for the owners of cars with the best one-piece or bolted two-piece OE rotors.
-Dan
Both our companies are able to control knockback in racing with non-preloaded floating rotor systems, but you have basically said that this is not about knockback, it is about runout, which you describe as "seeking a true centerline."
Careful machining in OE applications can easily control rotor runout at a level that is not a problem in service. Luxury and performance cars at the highest level are able to use one-piece rotors without experiencing any problems, so the benefits of using a lightly preloaded floating mechanism as claimed to further reduce runout dynamically are just that, your company's claim.
StopTech controls runout of our two-piece rotor assemblies to the same standards used by high quality suppliers throughout the braking industry for one-piece rotors. Uneven wear, vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response caused by runout are not an issue for our customers, as they are not for the owners of cars with the best one-piece or bolted two-piece OE rotors.
-Dan
09-07-2006, 07:51 PM
#88
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Not to start this up again, but you stand by this statement?
"They (Belleville washers) have a very high spring rate so once they are torqued down they don't allow the disk to move. When a disk isn't allowed to expand the hat may crack around the bolt hole area. The Brembo hardware is more expensive because it was specifically designed for that application. Brembo solution is used by the few OEMs running two piece rotors, I am not aware of the Belleville Inconel washer to be acceptable when durability is of importance."
This is what fired off much of the discussion and the reason there is discussion is because you make claims that are unfounded. I've never seen a cracked hat, or for that matter a rotor flange, on any STaSIS product. As you can see Ted discusses the function and design of our floating system, due to semantics it seems that "Bremboguy" feels that our rotors, and others, do not float but have "room for expansion." So even by a person who represents Brembo and is extremely knowledgable on the subject has stated that even in the worst case our system allows room for expansion, even if we disagree on the definition of the term "float." We see great information from Ted and Dan Barnes about the Belleville based floating system which does not mesh with your claim.
You also state that Belleville washers as unacceptable when durability is of importance. So somehow multiple World Challenge Touring Cars we run, a large number of customers and even our employees run with a system that isn't durable? This just hasn't been proven in the multiple years of use for many customers, employees and racecars. Our WCTC racecars use the same hats and rotors for multiple events.
One short coming of the original system was the lack of a jet nut for added security of the system. The one rotor failure that I have seen was with an older system that had been disassembled and replacement rotors affixed. Many variables could have effected this situation and it will be extremely hard to determine the exact fault, however as stated all new STaSIS equipment has been equipped with a bolt that extends through the hat and is locked into place with a one time use jet nut with red loctite. I have seen failures of competitors rotors, even one piece rotors. However I have no desire to bring these up to make our product look better or any other product look worse.
Honestly the chart doesn't bother myself all that much or other employees at STaSIS, however statements that call into questions the safety, durability or design of the product which are unfounded do bother us.
I hope that is clear and non-confrontational enough for you to not take offense to. This involves bringing proper information to light when improper information is presented.
Cheers,
This is what fired off much of the discussion and the reason there is discussion is because you make claims that are unfounded. I've never seen a cracked hat, or for that matter a rotor flange, on any STaSIS product. As you can see Ted discusses the function and design of our floating system, due to semantics it seems that "Bremboguy" feels that our rotors, and others, do not float but have "room for expansion." So even by a person who represents Brembo and is extremely knowledgable on the subject has stated that even in the worst case our system allows room for expansion, even if we disagree on the definition of the term "float." We see great information from Ted and Dan Barnes about the Belleville based floating system which does not mesh with your claim.
You also state that Belleville washers as unacceptable when durability is of importance. So somehow multiple World Challenge Touring Cars we run, a large number of customers and even our employees run with a system that isn't durable? This just hasn't been proven in the multiple years of use for many customers, employees and racecars. Our WCTC racecars use the same hats and rotors for multiple events.
One short coming of the original system was the lack of a jet nut for added security of the system. The one rotor failure that I have seen was with an older system that had been disassembled and replacement rotors affixed. Many variables could have effected this situation and it will be extremely hard to determine the exact fault, however as stated all new STaSIS equipment has been equipped with a bolt that extends through the hat and is locked into place with a one time use jet nut with red loctite. I have seen failures of competitors rotors, even one piece rotors. However I have no desire to bring these up to make our product look better or any other product look worse.
Honestly the chart doesn't bother myself all that much or other employees at STaSIS, however statements that call into questions the safety, durability or design of the product which are unfounded do bother us.
I hope that is clear and non-confrontational enough for you to not take offense to. This involves bringing proper information to light when improper information is presented.
Cheers,
09-08-2006, 10:18 AM
#89
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Re: Controlling runout
Dan,
Can you explain how it's possible to...
"<I>control runout of your two-piece rotor assemblies to the same standards used by high quality suppliers throughout the braking industry for one-piece rotors</I>"???
The "standards" of OEM discs are not at a level I would consider acceptable for a costly high performance big brake upgrade.
And the processes used to Quality Check, Balance, Correct or Maintain the trueness of a 1pc. disc are not posible to duplicate with a 2pc. discs that is supposed to have float.
<U><B>QUOTE: Dan@StopTech</B></U>
<I>Careful machining in OE applications can easily control rotor runout at a level that is not a problem in service. Luxury and performance cars at the highest level are able to use one-piece rotors without experiencing any problems, so the benefits of using a lightly preloaded floating mechanism as claimed to further reduce runout dynamically are just that, your company's claim.
...Uneven wear, vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response caused by runout are not an issue for our customers, as they are not for the owners of cars with the best one-piece or bolted two-<U>piece OE rotors.</U></I>
The first problem that most people experience with OEM systems is fade. We all know it's very easy to fade most OEM brake systems. The second, third, fourth,(and on) problems are exactly what you have described above.
Problematic wear...vibrations...inconsistencies in pedal feel and response. And these are in cars with the "<I>"best" one-piece or bolted two-piece OE rotors".</I>
Matching the quality standards of systems already experiencing problems just doesn't seem like a good goal for any manufacturer of big brake Upgrades.
Heck, Brembo even produces a good majority of the brake systems with "best" one-piece or two-piece OE rotors that you talk about. Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, Subaru, Ferrari ect.
This is where we gain the insight on where we can still find improvements for performance, pedal feel, longevity and in some cases even overall quality. We go above and beyond what even the best equipped OEM vehicles have from the start.
The highest quality fully floating 2pc. disc assemblies are where a majority of Brembo's improvements and added performance come from. Specifically due to what you would call "subtle differences" in our McLaren hardware vs. what the rest of the companies use.
Can you explain how it's possible to...
"<I>control runout of your two-piece rotor assemblies to the same standards used by high quality suppliers throughout the braking industry for one-piece rotors</I>"???
The "standards" of OEM discs are not at a level I would consider acceptable for a costly high performance big brake upgrade.
And the processes used to Quality Check, Balance, Correct or Maintain the trueness of a 1pc. disc are not posible to duplicate with a 2pc. discs that is supposed to have float.
<U><B>QUOTE: Dan@StopTech</B></U>
<I>Careful machining in OE applications can easily control rotor runout at a level that is not a problem in service. Luxury and performance cars at the highest level are able to use one-piece rotors without experiencing any problems, so the benefits of using a lightly preloaded floating mechanism as claimed to further reduce runout dynamically are just that, your company's claim.
...Uneven wear, vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response caused by runout are not an issue for our customers, as they are not for the owners of cars with the best one-piece or bolted two-<U>piece OE rotors.</U></I>
The first problem that most people experience with OEM systems is fade. We all know it's very easy to fade most OEM brake systems. The second, third, fourth,(and on) problems are exactly what you have described above.
Problematic wear...vibrations...inconsistencies in pedal feel and response. And these are in cars with the "<I>"best" one-piece or bolted two-piece OE rotors".</I>
Matching the quality standards of systems already experiencing problems just doesn't seem like a good goal for any manufacturer of big brake Upgrades.
Heck, Brembo even produces a good majority of the brake systems with "best" one-piece or two-piece OE rotors that you talk about. Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, Subaru, Ferrari ect.
This is where we gain the insight on where we can still find improvements for performance, pedal feel, longevity and in some cases even overall quality. We go above and beyond what even the best equipped OEM vehicles have from the start.
The highest quality fully floating 2pc. disc assemblies are where a majority of Brembo's improvements and added performance come from. Specifically due to what you would call "subtle differences" in our McLaren hardware vs. what the rest of the companies use.
09-13-2006, 02:24 PM
#90
your points are very well presented. these are the reasons why i went with StopTechs.
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