StopTech to Brembo Switch (Alcon comparo as well)
09-06-2006, 03:48 PM
#72
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Tomasz, Dan Barnes, BremboGuy, Ted - Thank you all for your posts - Excellent read
I really appreciate everyone's time and learned a heck of a lot reading all of this. Thanks!
09-06-2006, 05:46 PM
#74
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Re: Radial vs. axial float and knockback
Dan,
Good to hear from you on this topic.
Problem is, you still offer the same response as in our last conversation. You still seem to think that the only benefit or advantage to a "fully floating disc" is in prevention of knock-back. That is not the case. The prevention or assisting with knock-back just happens to be an added benefit.
Seeking a true center line to ensure even pad & rotor wear, improving pedal feel & response with more consistent rotor-to-disc contact, and protecting the hat/bell & assembly hardware from additional stresses are much larger and more important benefits.
In response to your "invitation" to share cases of customers switching from StopTech to Brembo...there have been many. I personally think it would be wrong to come in here and state these cases to try and sway people from purchasing a StopTech kit in favor of Brembo. That is not my intention. My intention is to let people know that Brembo has spent lots of research and development dollars, and extensive amounts of testing, to develop it's floating hardware systems. With that comes benefits that are not easily achieved by other manufacturers using simple inconel Bellville lock washers.
(for more information, read my response below to "just curious..." by <B>AndrewC::A55clown</B>)
Good to hear from you on this topic.
Problem is, you still offer the same response as in our last conversation. You still seem to think that the only benefit or advantage to a "fully floating disc" is in prevention of knock-back. That is not the case. The prevention or assisting with knock-back just happens to be an added benefit.
Seeking a true center line to ensure even pad & rotor wear, improving pedal feel & response with more consistent rotor-to-disc contact, and protecting the hat/bell & assembly hardware from additional stresses are much larger and more important benefits.
In response to your "invitation" to share cases of customers switching from StopTech to Brembo...there have been many. I personally think it would be wrong to come in here and state these cases to try and sway people from purchasing a StopTech kit in favor of Brembo. That is not my intention. My intention is to let people know that Brembo has spent lots of research and development dollars, and extensive amounts of testing, to develop it's floating hardware systems. With that comes benefits that are not easily achieved by other manufacturers using simple inconel Bellville lock washers.
(for more information, read my response below to "just curious..." by <B>AndrewC::A55clown</B>)
09-06-2006, 06:05 PM
#75
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Re: just curious. how much sideways play does the McLaren hardware provide? it also appears that
Andrew,
The amount of float (<I>as you called "sideways play"</I>) and room for expansion is determined by the dimensions of the disc being used. A disc that is 28mm thick will require different tolerances than a disc that is 34mm thick. In some cases we even switch to the t-bobbin style hardware to allow for higher amounts of float.
<B>T-Bobbin style hardware as used Andy Pilgrams CTSV race car.</B>
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/freeriderizzle/type5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
The alignment of the caliper-to-disc, <I>with either style of hardware</I>, is based on the true center line of the disc in motion. This allows for even pad-to-rotor contact at any variation of disc thickness through the various temperature ranges.
In the case of non-floating disc assemblies, or discs that are restricted by the hardware, there will be variations in their centerline as the disc expands. This is not the case with Brembo due to the extra research and development and implementing of the McLaren style hardware's.
The amount of float (<I>as you called "sideways play"</I>) and room for expansion is determined by the dimensions of the disc being used. A disc that is 28mm thick will require different tolerances than a disc that is 34mm thick. In some cases we even switch to the t-bobbin style hardware to allow for higher amounts of float.
<B>T-Bobbin style hardware as used Andy Pilgrams CTSV race car.</B>
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/freeriderizzle/type5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
The alignment of the caliper-to-disc, <I>with either style of hardware</I>, is based on the true center line of the disc in motion. This allows for even pad-to-rotor contact at any variation of disc thickness through the various temperature ranges.
In the case of non-floating disc assemblies, or discs that are restricted by the hardware, there will be variations in their centerline as the disc expands. This is not the case with Brembo due to the extra research and development and implementing of the McLaren style hardware's.
09-06-2006, 06:28 PM
#76
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thanks . . . so let's say a hypothetical 332 x 32 disc? ;-)
09-06-2006, 08:49 PM
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*golf clap* most informative post yet...
What I have concluded is that braking systems are very similar to suspension systems, in that you basically need to try each one before you purchase. There are many things to consider and there is not one correct choice.
09-07-2006, 09:52 AM
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Re: thanks . . . so let's say a hypothetical 332 x 32 disc? ;-)
Well, without giving up too much information, I can only give you a rough idea of the amount of float. It seems that every time we get really technical to help and educate the consumer, the competitors somehow find a way to incorporate our information into their design and claim it as their own.
Most people say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I don't.
Especially when they use our explanations and information to claim the same benefits from a product that is obviously not up to par, AND take credit for it as "innovation".
Back on topic...
On a 332x32mm disc we will generally supply aprox 0.2 - 0.4mm of axial float. A 328x28mm disc will see slightly less, at about 0.15 - 0.35mm of axial float. The exact amount will be based on the specific application and what we are trying to achieve.
Even when correctly assembled and torqued, there will always be a very minor amount of run-out in <B>any</B> 2pc. disc assembly. With the McLaren hardware, this small amount run-out quickly disappears due to the centrifugal force as the disc is in motion. It will seek a true center line and remain perfectly centered between the opposing pads.
In a system that is <U>not floating</U>, or restricted by too much spring tension, it will never find it's true centerline. Whether minor or not, this will add to uneven pad and disc wear, possible vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response.
This is not a theory.
This has been proven in both road and laboratory testing while developing the McLaren hardware.
Most people say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I don't.
Especially when they use our explanations and information to claim the same benefits from a product that is obviously not up to par, AND take credit for it as "innovation".
Back on topic...
On a 332x32mm disc we will generally supply aprox 0.2 - 0.4mm of axial float. A 328x28mm disc will see slightly less, at about 0.15 - 0.35mm of axial float. The exact amount will be based on the specific application and what we are trying to achieve.
Even when correctly assembled and torqued, there will always be a very minor amount of run-out in <B>any</B> 2pc. disc assembly. With the McLaren hardware, this small amount run-out quickly disappears due to the centrifugal force as the disc is in motion. It will seek a true center line and remain perfectly centered between the opposing pads.
In a system that is <U>not floating</U>, or restricted by too much spring tension, it will never find it's true centerline. Whether minor or not, this will add to uneven pad and disc wear, possible vibration and inconsistent pedal feel and response.
This is not a theory.
This has been proven in both road and laboratory testing while developing the McLaren hardware.
09-07-2006, 10:04 AM
#80
AudiWorld Super User
thank you for your candor. i was envisioning something bigger than the range you mentioned.
i can see where this can help especially with fit from car to car in the same application.