OK, update on alignment....went back to get realigned. There was some...

SAC-CA-GTI · 01-12-2006, 05:28 PM

confusion on my part as what is toe in, negative or positive? They said positive, I thought negative. They were doing it on a hunter machine, and as Alex said, they just point it in the middle and go. The first pic shows it at 3/16" total toe. Well the spec for the machine was at 3/32 for 0 toe. He got it there, but didn't seem right...so he put it at a little toe in at 9/32". Is this right? I don't know...I'm all confused. Meanwhile I raised my front susp. 1/2" and rear 1/4" which actually made my camber go UP! So, yes Ryan, I should have left it alone. It will go back down...or should I keep it there? I like the extra bit of height. Or is that camber bad on the left? Thoughts anyone? Oh, and I had to buy two new tires for $420! SUCKS. Could have got some used S03's for cheap, but the rain has been constant here in NorCal. Hopefully Big O will split the bill with me on the tires. And as for the tire rubbing on anything on the suspension...didn't see anything.
This pic is the alignment on 1/3/06

This is from today: (sorry if its hard to read)

Toe In...Toe Out

LCP · 01-12-2006, 06:47 PM

...I think last time I did an alignment I had it set to 1/32" each side up front and zero toe in the rear each side. Don't pay any real attention to total toe -- what matters is the individual number on each side.

EricVonHa · 01-12-2006, 07:02 PM

it was set more towards the factory spec of "toe-in". And, that is what you show "now" (bottom photo). Though, they toed the front wheels in even further. (the leading edge of the tires are closer together than the trailing edge). The car should be noticably more stable in straight line stability requiring less steering input to keep the car going straight.

Any time you change the ride height on a car, you will effect toe and camber as a result.

On the bottom photo, I'm a little concerned (being a perfectionist with this type of thing). The left front wheel has -.5 degree more negative camber. Ideally, side to side, this should be equal unless you're doing serious track time and taking a lot of right turns. It is a total pain in the azz to set up a car perfectly, but it can be done. Once they touch one adjustment, even if it's in the rear, it can throw the front off. I'd ask them to correct it, but that's just me being me. Alignments are no joke and it is a science.

It appears as though they were trying to give you more of an agressive street alignment. To me, -2 degrees of negative camber is quite a lot. You can see that the minimum factory spec (per Hunter) is -.4 And, you are at the far opposite of that.

Also, ask them why they didn't give you the "before" picture today. It would be helpful to see how far out of wack it was from the 1st alignment to the second.

Also, as you probably know, the agressive setup that you now have is going to chew up tires quicker than a soft street alignment. Your front tires have max toe-in and the negative camber is great for high speed sweepers and on/off-ramps, but you're driving 90% straight in normal conditions... and, I'm guessing that for over $400 for two tires.. you have an agressive speed rated tire with a low treadwear rating.. Keep up posted on the tire wear!

Jason@STaSIS · 01-12-2006, 08:35 PM

the control arms and links? if any of the bushings are bad then your will change BIGTIME when you are driving.

Also if your camber increased as you raised the car something is wrong with either your shop - or your car.

We have stock all of the B5 control arms and we offer race quality alignments (the same way we do the race cars - no electric dodads) for $150.... call me and lets get that car in and we'll find the issue.

SAC-CA-GTI · 01-12-2006, 10:04 PM

adjust my suspension to the ride height before taking it in, that raising it caused the camber to go up. That shouldn't be. And like I said, I just replaced the control arms Dec. 30th of last year. I might take you up on that alignment offer.

SAC-CA-GTI · 01-12-2006, 10:06 PM

did mine last time (May 2005) knew what he was doing. When I get my new tires I'll go back in and have the camber looked at and toe set to about 1/32 a side. And 0 in the rear.

Pat-SoCal · 01-13-2006, 06:10 AM

If you explained to these guys what you needed and they still didn't get it right, maybe it's time to take Jason up on his offer.

I don't understand how the alignment operator makes the toe zero by setting the alignment to 3/32. Isn't the specified range the units which they set the alignment software to read? Whether it's in 32nds, 64ths or in percentages? I do my alignments on the Hunter rack at AMS and I don't recall any "specified range" which changes the way the values change the alignment.

FixedWing · 01-13-2006, 06:28 AM

ryans4 · 01-13-2006, 07:35 AM

reefer_bob · 01-13-2006, 08:17 AM

Because something really seems out of whack, especially with the camber increasing as you increased ride height...

I almost wonder if you have a wrong set of control arms or something...

01-12-2006, 05:28 PM	#1
SAC-CA-GTI Senior Member Account #: 42872 Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 8,320	OK, update on alignment....went back to get realigned. There was some... confusion on my part as what is toe in, negative or positive? They said positive, I thought negative. They were doing it on a hunter machine, and as Alex said, they just point it in the middle and go. The first pic shows it at 3/16" total toe. Well the spec for the machine was at 3/32 for 0 toe. He got it there, but didn't seem right...so he put it at a little toe in at 9/32". Is this right? I don't know...I'm all confused. Meanwhile I raised my front susp. 1/2" and rear 1/4" which actually made my camber go UP! So, yes Ryan, I should have left it alone. It will go back down...or should I keep it there? I like the extra bit of height. Or is that camber bad on the left? Thoughts anyone? Oh, and I had to buy two new tires for $420! SUCKS. Could have got some used S03's for cheap, but the rain has been constant here in NorCal. Hopefully Big O will split the bill with me on the tires. And as for the tire rubbing on anything on the suspension...didn't see anything. This pic is the alignment on 1/3/06 This is from today: (sorry if its hard to read) Toe In...Toe Out __________________

01-12-2006, 06:47 PM	#2
LCP AudiWorld Expert Account #: 125 Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 26,557	Your toe problem (too much toe in) just got worse. It was increased from 3/32"/side to 1/8"/side... ...I think last time I did an alignment I had it set to 1/32" each side up front and zero toe in the rear each side. Don't pay any real attention to total toe -- what matters is the individual number on each side. __________________ "I can't stop apexing" 2000 S4 :: Nogaro Blue :: 6-spd :: AWE RSK04 :: AP Racing 13" 4-pots STaSIS Tracksports 550f/600r + 19mm rear sway bar :: APR Bipipe RS4 ICs :: Forge BPVs :: Autospeed DPs :: Borla :: Aquamist 1s UUC 40% short shifter w/spacer mod :: AWE center vent boost guage Lightweight flywheel :: 18x8 Ronal LZ's :: 235/40-18 Toyo T1R's 2002 allroad :: Atlas Grey :: Tip :: 245/50-17 Dunlop SP5000's Looking for tires? See My review of all of the tires I've had on my S4 Need info? See Everything anyone needs to know about their S4 Help our troops protect their heads: Donate to Operation Helmet Rest In Peace Matthew Ammon a/k/a O.W. Kenobi. May the Force be with you as you keep on apexing. Read his funniest post here.

01-12-2006, 07:02 PM	#3
EricVonHa Audiworld Junior Member Account #: 63233 Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 733	The "before" of the TOP picture shows "toe out". That is "negative". After they aligned it.... it was set more towards the factory spec of "toe-in". And, that is what you show "now" (bottom photo). Though, they toed the front wheels in even further. (the leading edge of the tires are closer together than the trailing edge). The car should be noticably more stable in straight line stability requiring less steering input to keep the car going straight. Any time you change the ride height on a car, you will effect toe and camber as a result. On the bottom photo, I'm a little concerned (being a perfectionist with this type of thing). The left front wheel has -.5 degree more negative camber. Ideally, side to side, this should be equal unless you're doing serious track time and taking a lot of right turns. It is a total pain in the azz to set up a car perfectly, but it can be done. Once they touch one adjustment, even if it's in the rear, it can throw the front off. I'd ask them to correct it, but that's just me being me. Alignments are no joke and it is a science. It appears as though they were trying to give you more of an agressive street alignment. To me, -2 degrees of negative camber is quite a lot. You can see that the minimum factory spec (per Hunter) is -.4 And, you are at the far opposite of that. Also, ask them why they didn't give you the "before" picture today. It would be helpful to see how far out of wack it was from the 1st alignment to the second. Also, as you probably know, the agressive setup that you now have is going to chew up tires quicker than a soft street alignment. Your front tires have max toe-in and the negative camber is great for high speed sweepers and on/off-ramps, but you're driving 90% straight in normal conditions... and, I'm guessing that for over $400 for two tires.. you have an agressive speed rated tire with a low treadwear rating.. Keep up posted on the tire wear! __________________

01-12-2006, 08:35 PM	#4
Jason@STaSIS Audiworld Premium Sponsor Account #: 82232 Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,494	have you checked the control arms and links? if any of the bushings are bad then your will change BIGTIME when you are driving. Also if your camber increased as you raised the car something is wrong with either your shop - or your car. We have stock all of the B5 control arms and we offer race quality alignments (the same way we do the race cars - no electric dodads) for $150.... call me and lets get that car in and we'll find the issue. __________________

01-12-2006, 10:04 PM	#5
SAC-CA-GTI Senior Member Account #: 42872 Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 8,320	Jason, they are ALL brand new control arms. And I found it weird when I went to adjust my suspension to the ride height before taking it in, that raising it caused the camber to go up. That shouldn't be. And like I said, I just replaced the control arms Dec. 30th of last year. I might take you up on that alignment offer. __________________

01-12-2006, 10:06 PM	#6
SAC-CA-GTI Senior Member Account #: 42872 Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 8,320	Yeah, I'm quickly learning that the guys that are working there now, don't really know. The guy that did mine last time (May 2005) knew what he was doing. When I get my new tires I'll go back in and have the camber looked at and toe set to about 1/32 a side. And 0 in the rear. __________________

01-13-2006, 06:10 AM	#7
Pat-SoCal Elder Member Account #: 16079 Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 11,588	Hmmm, you walked away with more toe-in :/ If you explained to these guys what you needed and they still didn't get it right, maybe it's time to take Jason up on his offer. I don't understand how the alignment operator makes the toe zero by setting the alignment to 3/32. Isn't the specified range the units which they set the alignment software to read? Whether it's in 32nds, 64ths or in percentages? I do my alignments on the Hunter rack at AMS and I don't recall any "specified range" which changes the way the values change the alignment. __________________

01-13-2006, 06:28 AM	#8
FixedWing Senior Member Account #: 66531 Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,155	"Most useless photo of the year award". :-p __________________ ================================================== ======================

01-13-2006, 07:35 AM	#9
ryans4 Senior Member Account #: 4359 Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 7,314	2nd, everything got worse, just take it to Jason and have it done "the old fashioned way"... __________________

01-13-2006, 08:17 AM	#10
reefer_bob Member Account #: 45294 Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 14,337	Dumb question, but did you check all your part numbers before installing the pieces? Because something really seems out of whack, especially with the camber increasing as you increased ride height... I almost wonder if you have a wrong set of control arms or something... __________________ Reefer_Bob. AIM: reeferbob R.I.P. Matthew Ammon aka O.W. Kenobi

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