There's a post I made a few days back that got deleted within the "Borat poll" and I wanted to...
03-31-2007, 08:00 AM
#1
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
There's a post I made a few days back that got deleted within the "Borat poll" and I wanted to...
reinstate it as an FYI related to people here spending their money on mods I specifically make and others accusing them of being silly, short-sighted, delusional and/or not being able to "see the forest for the trees."
Below is a copy of that post:
<<Subject: There's another aspect to the cost of things I make that no one's considered/mentioned in any of this...
and that is ROI, ie; "return on investment." The parts I make enjoy a HUGELY higher-then-average resale value when people decide to sell their cars. People have actually sold my parts when moving on to a different car for more than they paid, the same price they paid and VERY slightly under what they paid when the parts sold originally. Since when is that kind of investment "silly", unwise, impractical or ill-advised!?! So you spend $200 for "x-part" and use it for 2 years then sell it for $225-$250. That's "silly"? Or pay $355 for something and get $355 for it after a year or two. "Unwise" you say? Or $55 and sell it for $50 after 3 years use. Is that "really" an impractical and/or ill-advised "waste of money?" And items purchased in a "Group Purchase" are virtually guaranteed to "make" money or no worse than break-even upon resale due to buying at discounted/group pricing originally!
I think those that accuse people here of being short-sighted, spending too much or not being able to "see the forest for the trees" are the myopic ones. If there's a better-made, higher quality, longer-lasting, more efficient, time-proven and/or enduring part available for the 12V I'd like to see evidence of it... if there were I'd never made even the first 12V part!
I'd love to hear the "success stories" of parts the people saying these things have bought new, invested in and how much benefit they derived from it or how much of a "hit" they were ding'd when they wanted/needed to sell it or the car it was installed on.
Car culture is a funny thing. People do spend exhorbitant money on what they drive and admittedly there's some things I too find a little strange, weird and silly. But I don't lambast them publically for it. In fact I seldom say a word... their car/their money. But where's the "fault" in spending $1k on an intake system that is so well made, performs so well, guaranteed to do what it claims and give more power as well as economy if you can keep your foot out of it then be re-sold in 2-3 years for what you paid for it, or 10% less a bad thing!?! Lets do the math: Buy-in: $1k/Resale: $1,100, $1,000 or $900. Is it "really" all that bad to make a hundred bucks, drive it for free for 2-3 years or even lose a hundred bucks to have used the parts for that 2-3 years? If people REALLY thought they could get a safer, wiser ROI I wouldn't only encourage it, I'd participate in it! You can never know what a part cost you when you buy it... it's only when you sell it that your "cost" becomes known. And these are all parts that while they do have a finite life there's no parts to wear out other than on throttle bodies. They will easily out-live their owners. Whats to fail in a velocity stack, MAF housing, recovery sleeve, hose joiner et al!?!
Let's delve into costs of an entire airbox-to-throttle body intake system:
Airbox 4.5-3" VS outlet: $55
RS3 MAF: $255
HVRS: $185
XTB: $355
3" silicone hose w/elbows (guess): $150 w/clamps
Bear in mind all prices above "include" shipping except silicone and non-HVRS clamps.
That's a total of $1,000. Dyno shows 25WHP gain (minimum) over stock Dyno WHP with these mods and nothing else which translates to $40 per additional HP over stock. Compare this to the "rule-of-thumb" $100 per additional HP when dealing with a N/A engine. Now compare that with supercharging or turbo charging the 12V engine and you'll find those kits running upwards of $100 per additional HP considering the required 12V Hitachi ECU stand-alone engine management upgrade that's not calculated-in when comparing the 30V 2.8 super charged engine with the Bosch Motronic ECU which is a "chippable" ECU. Once intake tract has been carried out there then exists other things, like gun-drilled AAH cams etc that can be done that hover nearer $30 per additional HP over stock before encountering the next "wall." This is cheap, bullet-proof-reliable and documented HP increase with hundreds and hundreds of users around the world. This is NOT fantasy, heresay, speculation, conjecture or some pipe dream. This is documented & verifiable FACT via published dyno plots!
No, you can argue with many things however success isn't one of them. These parts aren't "costing" people but rather instead "paying" people to own them either directly or indirectly and I'd stand in long lines to reap the same benefit/reward system in ANY other purchases I make.
But dont take my word for it. There's a LONG line of people here that can vouch for me and the products I make/offer. Ask them what they paid originally, what they sold their used system for and to pro-rate the enjoyment and mileage benefits over their years of ownership then project "costs" of their actual "out-of-pocket" expenses, if any to see what they "lost" in having bought one or more of my components. Then try harder to convince them how silly, frivolous and outrageous they are for making money, getting or using parts for free and picking up a few ponies and MPG in the process.
This isnt "mental giant" stuff but YOWSA common sense and a little savvy sure pisses some off... especially those with a profound lack of it.
Makes me smile ;-)>>
Below is a copy of that post:
<<Subject: There's another aspect to the cost of things I make that no one's considered/mentioned in any of this...
and that is ROI, ie; "return on investment." The parts I make enjoy a HUGELY higher-then-average resale value when people decide to sell their cars. People have actually sold my parts when moving on to a different car for more than they paid, the same price they paid and VERY slightly under what they paid when the parts sold originally. Since when is that kind of investment "silly", unwise, impractical or ill-advised!?! So you spend $200 for "x-part" and use it for 2 years then sell it for $225-$250. That's "silly"? Or pay $355 for something and get $355 for it after a year or two. "Unwise" you say? Or $55 and sell it for $50 after 3 years use. Is that "really" an impractical and/or ill-advised "waste of money?" And items purchased in a "Group Purchase" are virtually guaranteed to "make" money or no worse than break-even upon resale due to buying at discounted/group pricing originally!
I think those that accuse people here of being short-sighted, spending too much or not being able to "see the forest for the trees" are the myopic ones. If there's a better-made, higher quality, longer-lasting, more efficient, time-proven and/or enduring part available for the 12V I'd like to see evidence of it... if there were I'd never made even the first 12V part!
I'd love to hear the "success stories" of parts the people saying these things have bought new, invested in and how much benefit they derived from it or how much of a "hit" they were ding'd when they wanted/needed to sell it or the car it was installed on.
Car culture is a funny thing. People do spend exhorbitant money on what they drive and admittedly there's some things I too find a little strange, weird and silly. But I don't lambast them publically for it. In fact I seldom say a word... their car/their money. But where's the "fault" in spending $1k on an intake system that is so well made, performs so well, guaranteed to do what it claims and give more power as well as economy if you can keep your foot out of it then be re-sold in 2-3 years for what you paid for it, or 10% less a bad thing!?! Lets do the math: Buy-in: $1k/Resale: $1,100, $1,000 or $900. Is it "really" all that bad to make a hundred bucks, drive it for free for 2-3 years or even lose a hundred bucks to have used the parts for that 2-3 years? If people REALLY thought they could get a safer, wiser ROI I wouldn't only encourage it, I'd participate in it! You can never know what a part cost you when you buy it... it's only when you sell it that your "cost" becomes known. And these are all parts that while they do have a finite life there's no parts to wear out other than on throttle bodies. They will easily out-live their owners. Whats to fail in a velocity stack, MAF housing, recovery sleeve, hose joiner et al!?!
Let's delve into costs of an entire airbox-to-throttle body intake system:
Airbox 4.5-3" VS outlet: $55
RS3 MAF: $255
HVRS: $185
XTB: $355
3" silicone hose w/elbows (guess): $150 w/clamps
Bear in mind all prices above "include" shipping except silicone and non-HVRS clamps.
That's a total of $1,000. Dyno shows 25WHP gain (minimum) over stock Dyno WHP with these mods and nothing else which translates to $40 per additional HP over stock. Compare this to the "rule-of-thumb" $100 per additional HP when dealing with a N/A engine. Now compare that with supercharging or turbo charging the 12V engine and you'll find those kits running upwards of $100 per additional HP considering the required 12V Hitachi ECU stand-alone engine management upgrade that's not calculated-in when comparing the 30V 2.8 super charged engine with the Bosch Motronic ECU which is a "chippable" ECU. Once intake tract has been carried out there then exists other things, like gun-drilled AAH cams etc that can be done that hover nearer $30 per additional HP over stock before encountering the next "wall." This is cheap, bullet-proof-reliable and documented HP increase with hundreds and hundreds of users around the world. This is NOT fantasy, heresay, speculation, conjecture or some pipe dream. This is documented & verifiable FACT via published dyno plots!
No, you can argue with many things however success isn't one of them. These parts aren't "costing" people but rather instead "paying" people to own them either directly or indirectly and I'd stand in long lines to reap the same benefit/reward system in ANY other purchases I make.
But dont take my word for it. There's a LONG line of people here that can vouch for me and the products I make/offer. Ask them what they paid originally, what they sold their used system for and to pro-rate the enjoyment and mileage benefits over their years of ownership then project "costs" of their actual "out-of-pocket" expenses, if any to see what they "lost" in having bought one or more of my components. Then try harder to convince them how silly, frivolous and outrageous they are for making money, getting or using parts for free and picking up a few ponies and MPG in the process.
This isnt "mental giant" stuff but YOWSA common sense and a little savvy sure pisses some off... especially those with a profound lack of it.
Makes me smile ;-)>>
03-31-2007, 08:39 AM
#2
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Nice, my numbers were off originally
as I wasn't exactly sure what the retail prices were for some of that stuff, plus I went with the SXTB which I believe is more? and is what I have on the CAB.
Glad to see your going the business/professional/cya route with your products. I think you'll be happier in the long run.
Glad to see your going the business/professional/cya route with your products. I think you'll be happier in the long run.
03-31-2007, 08:43 AM
#3
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Thread Starter
nope, SXTB is same price, just a better flowing/customer-provided TB
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/711/rsxtb2.jpg"></center><p>
the CNC doesnt know if it's doing an XTB or SXTB... it's just running the program I entered into it that's the baseline for ALL my throttle bodies.
Now RXTB and RSXTB are more because they are extensively ported polished and flowed by hand after CNCing with TONs more flow via ground, low-profile butterfly screws, tapered inlet flange ID, diffuser-foiled (notched) shafts and individually flowed primary/secondary venturi's... so much more "hand-worked" that they even weigh 4 ounces less than an XTB/SXTB!
RSXTB in progress in pic
the CNC doesnt know if it's doing an XTB or SXTB... it's just running the program I entered into it that's the baseline for ALL my throttle bodies.
Now RXTB and RSXTB are more because they are extensively ported polished and flowed by hand after CNCing with TONs more flow via ground, low-profile butterfly screws, tapered inlet flange ID, diffuser-foiled (notched) shafts and individually flowed primary/secondary venturi's... so much more "hand-worked" that they even weigh 4 ounces less than an XTB/SXTB!
RSXTB in progress in pic
03-31-2007, 01:05 PM
#6
AudiWorld Super User
Thread Starter
well, there's no explaining some villagers ;-) But I hold the dyno plots, and the re-sale history...
is a matter of record here. Not "my" fault they can neither back up or support their claims/accusations.
Besides they didnt accuse "me" of being all those things. Just the people that buy into it. It's them I'm trying to rationalize/justify.
Besides they didnt accuse "me" of being all those things. Just the people that buy into it. It's them I'm trying to rationalize/justify.
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03-31-2007, 01:41 PM
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Can you post the dyno plot?
I will agrea that these parts do sell for close to if not the same price as they were purchased for. I purchased a VS about 3 yrs ago for $85 and sold it for $65 or $75 (can't remember). If I set the price higher I probably could have even sold it for the origanl buying price.
I would be curious to see the dyno numbers you are talking about though. Also, many other mods out there can also be purchased which yeild a better money to horsepower ratio than the $100 "rule-of-thumb". For instance, my 034 injector kit for the 20v yields a dyno proven 5-7 whp increase for only $305.
I would be curious to see the dyno numbers you are talking about though. Also, many other mods out there can also be purchased which yeild a better money to horsepower ratio than the $100 "rule-of-thumb". For instance, my 034 injector kit for the 20v yields a dyno proven 5-7 whp increase for only $305.
03-31-2007, 10:21 PM
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There exists a lot of nice stuff in his pp. Mance, you have been up to some interesting stuff . . .
Please tell us a little about those light weight drive shafts, CV joints, etc.
How much power do you save out of them?
I figure you have done the math to have the rotational forces figured out.
How much power do you save out of them?
I figure you have done the math to have the rotational forces figured out.
