S4 vs M3 in the wet!
07-08-2003, 06:31 AM
#1
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S4 vs M3 in the wet!
<center><img src="http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg"></center><p>http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s41.jpg
http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg<ul><li><a href="http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg">http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg</a</li></ul>
http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg<ul><li><a href="http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg">http://www.e.ramsden.dsl.pipex.com/tg/m3s42.jpg</a</li></ul>
07-08-2003, 07:00 AM
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Re: S4 vs M3 in the wet!
One car understeers the other oversteers. Since everyone is used to oversteer he couldnt compinsate and drive the car properly because thats the first report like that I have read anywhere. And track times of the S4 have always been faster then the M3. Just my two cents from all the other articles I have read.
07-08-2003, 07:35 AM
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The problem is that the author hasn't adapted.
Having driven RWD, FWD and AWD cars(and taught at a stock car racing school), it's easy to see that many people try to apply their skills in rear wheel cars to all cars. The fact is that applying rear wheel drive dynamics to an all wheel drive car will NOT yield the best results. I think that is where this author fails.
If you look at RWD vs. FWD lines, you'll see that there are very different turn-in and apex points. (See Bob Bondurant's book on High Performance Driving as a guide.) The same applies to AWD. AWD cars typically don't rotate as easily as RWD cars, so you don't carry in as much speed into the turn, but you apply throttle earlier exiting the turn (thereby using all four wheels for traction both laterally and longitudinally) and rocketing out of the turn faster.
The fact that the author is saying that the Audi S4 has tremendous understeer tells me that he's carrying too much speed into the turn for the car and is forcing the Audi's Quattro drive system to compensate for his lack of balance and finesse.
As is ALWAYS said in racing: Balance is key. Understeer and oversteer may look spectacular, but it's also very slow.
Bob K.
If you look at RWD vs. FWD lines, you'll see that there are very different turn-in and apex points. (See Bob Bondurant's book on High Performance Driving as a guide.) The same applies to AWD. AWD cars typically don't rotate as easily as RWD cars, so you don't carry in as much speed into the turn, but you apply throttle earlier exiting the turn (thereby using all four wheels for traction both laterally and longitudinally) and rocketing out of the turn faster.
The fact that the author is saying that the Audi S4 has tremendous understeer tells me that he's carrying too much speed into the turn for the car and is forcing the Audi's Quattro drive system to compensate for his lack of balance and finesse.
As is ALWAYS said in racing: Balance is key. Understeer and oversteer may look spectacular, but it's also very slow.
Bob K.
07-08-2003, 07:39 AM
#6
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Did he disable ESP? He mentions "...you can't disarm the stability system - as you can in the M3..."
Is the ESP disable button removed on the '04 S4?
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07-08-2003, 07:58 AM
#8
Key phrases for me........
1. "if you know what you are doing" - many of the drivers out there don't have the driving skills this person supposedly has
2. "you wouldn't drive the M3 on the throttle on a public road as I did" - so let's talk about the real world where over 99% of driving occurs. Yes, the M3 is a better track car. That is great if you take it to the track and are a well trained, skilled driver.
3. "maybe not in the snow" - I live in a climate that may have snow on the ground 5-6 months of the year. AWD matters to ME.
Anyways, I want a wagon. A fast, stealthy, AWD wagon. One that hauls 4 people comfortably. With bikes or skis on top and climbing gear or golf clubs on the inside. M3 is no competition for this.
My ultimate garage would have an S4 Avant and an M3 cabrio BTW.
2. "you wouldn't drive the M3 on the throttle on a public road as I did" - so let's talk about the real world where over 99% of driving occurs. Yes, the M3 is a better track car. That is great if you take it to the track and are a well trained, skilled driver.
3. "maybe not in the snow" - I live in a climate that may have snow on the ground 5-6 months of the year. AWD matters to ME.
Anyways, I want a wagon. A fast, stealthy, AWD wagon. One that hauls 4 people comfortably. With bikes or skis on top and climbing gear or golf clubs on the inside. M3 is no competition for this.
My ultimate garage would have an S4 Avant and an M3 cabrio BTW.
07-08-2003, 08:02 AM
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What a joke...
OMG!!!!
The author is <i>clearly</i> biased towards
the M3 -- this is evident right from the beginning
of the article and he <u>admits</u> it himself
in several places!!!
I doubt any knowledgeable driver will take this
article as anything but as a joke.
I mean -- check out his <i>style</i> of writing...
How infantile -- sounds like a teenager writing
it after being promised an M3 upon finishing...
Oh well.
--
The author is <i>clearly</i> biased towards
the M3 -- this is evident right from the beginning
of the article and he <u>admits</u> it himself
in several places!!!
I doubt any knowledgeable driver will take this
article as anything but as a joke.
I mean -- check out his <i>style</i> of writing...
How infantile -- sounds like a teenager writing
it after being promised an M3 upon finishing...
Oh well.
--
07-08-2003, 08:22 AM
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Ofcourse, that's with Mr. Sutcliffe behind the wheel...
I'm sure the majority of S4 & M3 owners out
there (including me) don't have the ability
or the experience to push cars to their very
limits on a public road, let alone on a race
track.
So what does this article tell me? That both
cars have positives and negatives in "stock"
form. The M3, edging ahead, under the control
of an "experienced driver". Does that make the
S4 a bad car? If you race down public roads
at 10/10ths and want to beat every M3 in sight,
maybe.
Just because you have a car that beats the other
car by a 10th of a sec or 10 seconds under the
control of an experienced driver, at a certain
track, doesn't automatically make "YOU" faster
on the track.
I remember reading about a journalist (in a new
Acura RSX) who followed an instructor in an Acura
NSX on a race track. Ofcourse, you know what
happens. Then they switched cars and the
journalist thought he was going to kick the
instructor to the curb because he was now in the
faster car. Wrong. The instructor out ran him,
lap after lap.
The S4 in the Speed Channel World Challenge
wasn't the fastest around many of the tracks,
yet they were winning races.
If any "one" professional driver I would trust
to give me the best opinion about these 2 cars,
it would be Hans Stuck. He currently has
experience with M3's and mucho experience with
AWD dynamics (butt sensor
Not to take anything
away from Sutcliffe, but with Hans AWD experience
maybe he could drive a AWD car differently and
improve the lap times.
Both cars are great. Who gives a crap. Buy what
you want and enjoy.
just my 2 cent rant,
E
there (including me) don't have the ability
or the experience to push cars to their very
limits on a public road, let alone on a race
track.
So what does this article tell me? That both
cars have positives and negatives in "stock"
form. The M3, edging ahead, under the control
of an "experienced driver". Does that make the
S4 a bad car? If you race down public roads
at 10/10ths and want to beat every M3 in sight,
maybe.
Just because you have a car that beats the other
car by a 10th of a sec or 10 seconds under the
control of an experienced driver, at a certain
track, doesn't automatically make "YOU" faster
on the track.
I remember reading about a journalist (in a new
Acura RSX) who followed an instructor in an Acura
NSX on a race track. Ofcourse, you know what
happens. Then they switched cars and the
journalist thought he was going to kick the
instructor to the curb because he was now in the
faster car. Wrong. The instructor out ran him,
lap after lap.
The S4 in the Speed Channel World Challenge
wasn't the fastest around many of the tracks,
yet they were winning races.
If any "one" professional driver I would trust
to give me the best opinion about these 2 cars,
it would be Hans Stuck. He currently has
experience with M3's and mucho experience with
AWD dynamics (butt sensor
Not to take anythingaway from Sutcliffe, but with Hans AWD experience
maybe he could drive a AWD car differently and
improve the lap times.
Both cars are great. Who gives a crap. Buy what
you want and enjoy.
just my 2 cent rant,
E