StopTech vs. Stasis mis-statements
09-05-2002, 02:25 PM
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StopTech vs. Stasis mis-statements
Earlier, Jeremy Williams from Matrix Engineering posted some incorrect and misleading statements about StopTech brake systems. This is the original thread:
https://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/946290.phtml
I'll address his points one by one:
1. "Stasis S8 calipers (same as on Ferrari 355) are made by Brembo. Stoptech calipers are a cheap copy of the Brembo caliper and are made overseas in Taiwan."
Brembo does make the S8 calipers, though it is not the same as the 355 Ferrari. StopTech buys castings made to our specification from a QS-9000 registered supplier in Taiwan. We do all critical finish machining, assembly and testing at our facility in Torrance, CA. Our calipers share common piston sizes and seals with Brembo calipers, including Porsche and Ferrari units. All similarities end there, as we use a different pad shape and different pad retaining abutment plates as well as our patented bridge. You cannot bolt a Brembo caliper half to our caliper half.
2. "The Stasis calipers flex less than Stoptech's since they're better quality, resulting in a better pedal feel."
Stasis supplies a caliper made by Brembo, call it a Brembo or S8 caliper; Stasis sells it, they don't make it. We have been awarded a patent on our bolt-in bridge, the main function being to stiffen the caliper. What test did you run to get your numbers? Did you actually run a test yourself? If you did it on a car did you have a pressure gauge in the line? We have not tested an S8 caliper, but have tested several competing calipers including a Brembo F50. We put calipers on a pressure test bench using a digital pressure gage and our calipers have shown to have ½ the flex of any similar units. There is also a caliper distortion that can only be calculated using an FEA computer model to simulate the effect the rotor has twisting the caliper. Again, our bridge dramatically reduces this. As for better pedal feel, not only is caliper stiffness an issue, piston sizing is critical to pedal travel, stiffness and pedal modulation as well. We test with several different piston size combinations to fine tune not only pure straight line stopping, but other variables such as pedal stroke and firmness. Have you ever tried a Brembo kit with different piston sizes just to see if it might be better? We have. On nice hot days on an asphalt airstrip changing hot brakes time and again, taking data, analyzing and seeing if we could make improvements. Believe me, it's not as glamorous as it sounds...
3. "Stasis Winston Cup rotors ($200.00 option) are the real-deal Brembo units that are used by top Winston Cup teams, made in Italy."
What is the base price on a rotor before the $200.00 price increase? Our rotors are the real-deal units, Made in the USA that have won in World Challenge, Grand-Am, GS Grand AM Cup (Don Istook's winning S4),US Touring Car as well as having run the entire 24 hours of Daytona, plus 2 1/2 hours of practice and qualifying. Sorry, we don't have a $200.00 upgrade. Winston Cup is brutal on brakes, but do you really need that level of heavy-duty component for your weekend track day? What is the weight of the Cup rotor? They are typically heavier than a road racing part. Oh, by the way, the Winston Cup Rule Book specifically prohibits the use of floating rotors; so how does that work?
4. "The S4 calipers are nice since they're factory units and can be serviced by an Audi dealer if necessary."
Under any type of warranty? Doubtful, but you can always pay Audi dealer shop rates and Audi OE replacement part prices.
5. "Moreover, the S8 caliper can use the factory pads and wear sensors. No other brake kits that I'm aware of allow you to do this."
Consider yourself now informed and aware that the pad StopTech uses in our calipers can be adapted to use a pad wear sensor.
6. "With Stasis you can choose which pads you'd like; Ferodo, Pagid, or Porterfield"
With StopTech you can choose Ferodo, Pagid, Porterfield, Hawk, Mintex, AXXIS, EBC, Performance Friction, SBA... See the FAQ section of our website for pad manufacturers part numbers so you can compare availability and pricing compared to the S8, or any other performance calipers. Here's the link: http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq19.html
7. "Stoptech might tell you that their rotors are floating rotors, but they are not---they are fixed in place. This doesn't allow the rotor to self center or change with thermal expansion"
You need to take a moment to educate yourself on exactly what is a "floating rotor". You can take a detailed look at our floating system on the FAQ section of our website. Here's the link: http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq18.html
8. "It is much easier to change pads on the Stasis kit vs. the Stoptech. Why? Because the Stoptech kit has hex screws/bolts that tend to get seized up when the brakes get hot. You have to reach around the back of the wheel, loosen the hex bolts, then remove the bridge(this can be tough sometimes too b/c it's such a tight fit). With the Stasis calipers, all you have to do is pull two clips, then pull the pin, and the pads drop out. Ryan at Stasis estimates that it takes longer to take off the wheel than change the pads on the Stasis kit."
Yes, you do need to remove 2 bolts to change pads in our calipers. These 2 bolts (technically they are Socket Head Cap Screws, not "hex" screws) are part of the stiffening function of the caliper bridge that provides better performance. If the bolts are tightened properly, they are quite easy to remove. I'll have to admit, if you're in the middle of an 8 Hour Endouro making a hot pit stop to change pads, fighting for the overall lead, a quick release clip would be nice to swap the pads. When was the last time one of your customers was in that situation? Most pro endurance race teams use a spring type clip, not drive pins like you described. The pins go in from one direction, so you need to reach around the back of the caliper anyway to either drive them out or re-align and drive them back in. I've done hot pad swaps on a stock Viper caliper using pins- not that much of a joy. Both set-ups need to jack up the car and remove the tires. A StopTech pad swap will take less than 5 minutes per side even if you take your time, after which the driver gets the benefit from having the stiffest 4-piston caliper made.
9. Oops, you didn't have a 9... you went straight from 8 to 10. I have the same problem with MS Word auto numbering for me.
10. "Stasis Winston Cup rotors are drop dead SEXY!!!!!!!!"
For that price, they better be.
StopTech has proven to be a high quality, competitively priced brake system capable of competing with the best the world has to offer. Take a look at the current Car & Driver article testing 15 of the hottest super cars in the country. A StopTech equipped Dodge Viper had the 3rd shortest stopping distance from 150-0. Only a Porsche 996 Twin Turbo prepped by Autothority and riding on shaved Michelin Sport tires and a 2200# mid-engine Mosler sports car had better stopping performance. We out performed cars equipped with the best systems companies such as Brembo, AP, Wilwood had to offer.
I don't typically take such a personal tone in a public forum, but your post is so full of falsehoods and innuendo meant to demean something myself and others have spent the last 3 ½ years working our asses off on, I have to put it out there. I make all the above statements with no hesitation and a willingness to back each and every word anytime, anyplace. I'm one of the founding members of StopTech and my partners and I have gone to great lengths to bring what we feel is a new approach to engineering, testing and manufacturing brake systems specifically for each platform we target. We have a great team of Engineers, Production Personnel and Front Office Staff to back up our product. I'd be happy to personally give you a tour of our facility and do everything to convince you that StopTech is everything we claim.
Let me close by saying Stasis does a fine job of specifying, manufacturing and packaging components and delivering them to the marketplace to fill in what customer's are looking for. They have a great, well earned reputation and we have conferred with them many times. I also understand Matrix has experience in racing and developing products for the street and track and has a loyal following in some performance enthusiast circles; but as far as knowledge of StopTech is concerned, you couldn't be further off base. I don't quite understand where you're coming from in your post, I'd be happy to discuss any issue with you to further clarify any confusion.
Matt Weiss
StopTech
mweiss@stoptech.com
https://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/946290.phtml
I'll address his points one by one:
1. "Stasis S8 calipers (same as on Ferrari 355) are made by Brembo. Stoptech calipers are a cheap copy of the Brembo caliper and are made overseas in Taiwan."
Brembo does make the S8 calipers, though it is not the same as the 355 Ferrari. StopTech buys castings made to our specification from a QS-9000 registered supplier in Taiwan. We do all critical finish machining, assembly and testing at our facility in Torrance, CA. Our calipers share common piston sizes and seals with Brembo calipers, including Porsche and Ferrari units. All similarities end there, as we use a different pad shape and different pad retaining abutment plates as well as our patented bridge. You cannot bolt a Brembo caliper half to our caliper half.
2. "The Stasis calipers flex less than Stoptech's since they're better quality, resulting in a better pedal feel."
Stasis supplies a caliper made by Brembo, call it a Brembo or S8 caliper; Stasis sells it, they don't make it. We have been awarded a patent on our bolt-in bridge, the main function being to stiffen the caliper. What test did you run to get your numbers? Did you actually run a test yourself? If you did it on a car did you have a pressure gauge in the line? We have not tested an S8 caliper, but have tested several competing calipers including a Brembo F50. We put calipers on a pressure test bench using a digital pressure gage and our calipers have shown to have ½ the flex of any similar units. There is also a caliper distortion that can only be calculated using an FEA computer model to simulate the effect the rotor has twisting the caliper. Again, our bridge dramatically reduces this. As for better pedal feel, not only is caliper stiffness an issue, piston sizing is critical to pedal travel, stiffness and pedal modulation as well. We test with several different piston size combinations to fine tune not only pure straight line stopping, but other variables such as pedal stroke and firmness. Have you ever tried a Brembo kit with different piston sizes just to see if it might be better? We have. On nice hot days on an asphalt airstrip changing hot brakes time and again, taking data, analyzing and seeing if we could make improvements. Believe me, it's not as glamorous as it sounds...
3. "Stasis Winston Cup rotors ($200.00 option) are the real-deal Brembo units that are used by top Winston Cup teams, made in Italy."
What is the base price on a rotor before the $200.00 price increase? Our rotors are the real-deal units, Made in the USA that have won in World Challenge, Grand-Am, GS Grand AM Cup (Don Istook's winning S4),US Touring Car as well as having run the entire 24 hours of Daytona, plus 2 1/2 hours of practice and qualifying. Sorry, we don't have a $200.00 upgrade. Winston Cup is brutal on brakes, but do you really need that level of heavy-duty component for your weekend track day? What is the weight of the Cup rotor? They are typically heavier than a road racing part. Oh, by the way, the Winston Cup Rule Book specifically prohibits the use of floating rotors; so how does that work?
4. "The S4 calipers are nice since they're factory units and can be serviced by an Audi dealer if necessary."
Under any type of warranty? Doubtful, but you can always pay Audi dealer shop rates and Audi OE replacement part prices.
5. "Moreover, the S8 caliper can use the factory pads and wear sensors. No other brake kits that I'm aware of allow you to do this."
Consider yourself now informed and aware that the pad StopTech uses in our calipers can be adapted to use a pad wear sensor.
6. "With Stasis you can choose which pads you'd like; Ferodo, Pagid, or Porterfield"
With StopTech you can choose Ferodo, Pagid, Porterfield, Hawk, Mintex, AXXIS, EBC, Performance Friction, SBA... See the FAQ section of our website for pad manufacturers part numbers so you can compare availability and pricing compared to the S8, or any other performance calipers. Here's the link: http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq19.html
7. "Stoptech might tell you that their rotors are floating rotors, but they are not---they are fixed in place. This doesn't allow the rotor to self center or change with thermal expansion"
You need to take a moment to educate yourself on exactly what is a "floating rotor". You can take a detailed look at our floating system on the FAQ section of our website. Here's the link: http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq18.html
8. "It is much easier to change pads on the Stasis kit vs. the Stoptech. Why? Because the Stoptech kit has hex screws/bolts that tend to get seized up when the brakes get hot. You have to reach around the back of the wheel, loosen the hex bolts, then remove the bridge(this can be tough sometimes too b/c it's such a tight fit). With the Stasis calipers, all you have to do is pull two clips, then pull the pin, and the pads drop out. Ryan at Stasis estimates that it takes longer to take off the wheel than change the pads on the Stasis kit."
Yes, you do need to remove 2 bolts to change pads in our calipers. These 2 bolts (technically they are Socket Head Cap Screws, not "hex" screws) are part of the stiffening function of the caliper bridge that provides better performance. If the bolts are tightened properly, they are quite easy to remove. I'll have to admit, if you're in the middle of an 8 Hour Endouro making a hot pit stop to change pads, fighting for the overall lead, a quick release clip would be nice to swap the pads. When was the last time one of your customers was in that situation? Most pro endurance race teams use a spring type clip, not drive pins like you described. The pins go in from one direction, so you need to reach around the back of the caliper anyway to either drive them out or re-align and drive them back in. I've done hot pad swaps on a stock Viper caliper using pins- not that much of a joy. Both set-ups need to jack up the car and remove the tires. A StopTech pad swap will take less than 5 minutes per side even if you take your time, after which the driver gets the benefit from having the stiffest 4-piston caliper made.
9. Oops, you didn't have a 9... you went straight from 8 to 10. I have the same problem with MS Word auto numbering for me.
10. "Stasis Winston Cup rotors are drop dead SEXY!!!!!!!!"
For that price, they better be.
StopTech has proven to be a high quality, competitively priced brake system capable of competing with the best the world has to offer. Take a look at the current Car & Driver article testing 15 of the hottest super cars in the country. A StopTech equipped Dodge Viper had the 3rd shortest stopping distance from 150-0. Only a Porsche 996 Twin Turbo prepped by Autothority and riding on shaved Michelin Sport tires and a 2200# mid-engine Mosler sports car had better stopping performance. We out performed cars equipped with the best systems companies such as Brembo, AP, Wilwood had to offer.
I don't typically take such a personal tone in a public forum, but your post is so full of falsehoods and innuendo meant to demean something myself and others have spent the last 3 ½ years working our asses off on, I have to put it out there. I make all the above statements with no hesitation and a willingness to back each and every word anytime, anyplace. I'm one of the founding members of StopTech and my partners and I have gone to great lengths to bring what we feel is a new approach to engineering, testing and manufacturing brake systems specifically for each platform we target. We have a great team of Engineers, Production Personnel and Front Office Staff to back up our product. I'd be happy to personally give you a tour of our facility and do everything to convince you that StopTech is everything we claim.
Let me close by saying Stasis does a fine job of specifying, manufacturing and packaging components and delivering them to the marketplace to fill in what customer's are looking for. They have a great, well earned reputation and we have conferred with them many times. I also understand Matrix has experience in racing and developing products for the street and track and has a loyal following in some performance enthusiast circles; but as far as knowledge of StopTech is concerned, you couldn't be further off base. I don't quite understand where you're coming from in your post, I'd be happy to discuss any issue with you to further clarify any confusion.
Matt Weiss
StopTech
mweiss@stoptech.com
09-05-2002, 02:40 PM
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Thanks Matt... didn't know about the pad size faq, that's great info!
You may want to think about including that info with the pages that show the kits.
Very articulate btw. Perhaps I really do need to upgrade to stoptechs...
Very articulate btw. Perhaps I really do need to upgrade to stoptechs...
09-05-2002, 02:52 PM
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Proof positive why I went with SToptech, you tell em MATT!
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/17215/101-0177_img.jpg"></center><p>Thanks and great to meet you back at thill in may!
David.
David.
