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APR's tuning on the M-box is either tuned very conservative or they have something wrong with the

Posted by: The R on 2003-03-26 17:05:01
Account #: 3387

In Reply to: How can ABT make less torque, but 30 HP more at 500 rpm less than APR? Confusing. posted by PhoenixS4 on 2003-03-26 13:44:23

code. I've seen too many M-boxes with low numbers. Don't know what the deal is, but the A box cars run significantly better.

--------------------------------------------
Rob aka "The 4DR Assassin"
Captain of the S4 Rowing Team

00 S4 Silver/Silver
93 Corrado SLC
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Audi S4: It speaks softly, but carries a big stick!

"You must be fast...cuz I was haulin' a$$ when I passed you!"

"BUT do not look down on B5 as they will bite you in the ass with vengeance" by Oggie_s

Thread:

let the chip debate begin.....dyno inside... many thanks to AWE, specially Todd - xccess 2003-03-26 10:49:43 (20737 views)

Re: let the chip debate begin.....dyno inside... many thanks to AWE, specially Todd - alicka 2005-11-06 12:37:47 (413 views)

what about APR v5.0? didn't that have alot of kinks worked out? - wanna buy an s4 2003-12-15 13:40:07 (1201 views)

Follow-up question about different Chips........ - forcedS4 2003-07-22 08:57:53 (1490 views)

Re: let the chip debate begin.....dyno inside... many thanks to AWE, specially Todd - forcedS4 2003-07-22 08:53:48 (1188 views)

....man I'm glad I got that chip.....................(Billy Madison) - FRS4 2003-03-26 15:13:07 (1995 views)

With my M-box this shows me why I don't want APR v3.3. ABT looks smooth & X has da powa! - shaneS4 2003-03-26 14:52:17 (1428 views)

Unfortunately that is a misrepresentation to get you to spend big bucks, it's AMS not ABT software - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 15:18:52 (1736 views)

Yes, but it's still the best software on the market ;) - Argeiphontes 2003-03-26 18:32:54 (1192 views)

You would have to quantify that statement. - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 19:40:19 (1156 views)

Tory, that's not really fair. I'm not disagreeing with you, but by that logic, MTM isn't MTM - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 16:44:48 (1350 views)

Actually no, here;'s why.. - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 19:37:42 (1350 views)

Jo Hoppen is nothing more than an MTM distributor... - NonBenz OZ SL GB 2003-03-26 19:40:26 (1310 views)

Not true...MTM has sent engineers here. - RichP 2003-03-27 06:30:58 (1110 views)

True, but that still doesn't change the fact that Hoppen is an MTM reseller. - NonBenz OZ SL GB 2003-03-27 06:58:42 (812 views)

right, like I said below, Strat sold MTM, which was the same MTM chip that anyone had... - Mark P 2003-03-27 09:28:52 (1104 views)

I'm pretty sure Strat was getting their MTM stuff from Hoppen and - RichP 2003-03-28 06:07:01 (831 views)

My understanding as well - Remember when Strat sold MTM? That had nothing to do with Hoppen, which - Mark P 2003-03-27 06:18:43 (731 views)

That was my understanding as well. - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 22:34:16 (759 views)

Ahhhh, interesting. - shaneS4 2003-03-26 15:38:16 (856 views)

Not sure what I'm suppose to read into this - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 19:38:34 (697 views)

Shortshifter circlip? - shaneS4 2003-03-26 19:51:55 (913 views)

OH HAHAHAHAHA!! - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 20:09:37 (684 views)

wow! How can I get such an accurate butt dyno:P - Chaka 2003-03-26 14:38:54 (674 views)

AWEsome comparison! Thanks! - S4MadManTuningTroLL 2003-03-26 14:09:26 (734 views)

Thank you Xcess. Comparaison between chips is what I needed in fact. Numbers are trivial... - Chuck-S4 2003-03-26 14:05:18 (988 views)

What about GIAC 1.0 bar???? where is that??? - veryfastS4@aol.com 2003-03-26 13:55:02 (1024 views)

NICE JOB Xcess!!! That will be a reference in the future! - Hell's-S4 2003-03-26 13:47:04 (610 views)

Thanks ,, I just want to do it to back up my butt dyno - xccess 2003-03-26 13:54:54 (694 views)

How can ABT make less torque, but 30 HP more at 500 rpm less than APR? Confusing. - PhoenixS4 2003-03-26 13:44:23 (1070 views)

APR's tuning on the M-box is either tuned very conservative or they have something wrong with the - The R 2003-03-26 17:05:01 (4104 views)

P.S. Confirms that short shifting is the way to go. - PhoenixS4 2003-03-26 13:51:14 (795 views)

Not if the final output torque with tranny gearing is still higher. (Which it probably is.) - BryanGT 2003-03-26 16:57:31 (645 views)

It matters where in the rev range you make that torque. HP = (torque x RPM)/5252. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 13:51:07 (658 views)

Well the peak torque was at the same rpm, but I guess the APR tq curve falls off faster. - PhoenixS4 2003-03-26 13:53:12 (779 views)

Many Thanks. Great Work. I Love my X Chip!!!!!!! - S4SPEED-VA 2003-03-26 13:11:32 (1015 views)

do they still have the data - can they plot APR vs MTM - that looks interesting - Mark P 2003-03-26 13:01:06 (762 views)

I can ask Todd, or Todd can you do it and post it here ? - xccess 2003-03-26 13:02:56 (706 views)

Results look very similar to our dyno tests. - tuan@grdperformance.com 2003-03-26 12:54:34 (1277 views)

Thanks for doing this, now compare to mine that i did sometime ago - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 12:49:59 (890 views)

yeap it look right to me :) and yes that a 93 octane - xccess 2003-03-26 12:53:45 (675 views)

>CLEEK< Track Thread... - bageldog 2003-03-26 12:49:35 (679 views)

So the dyno proves our tests were right.. APR mbox is slow :/ - LightWeight 2003-03-26 12:48:10 (940 views)

I will owned you with my APR - xccess 2003-03-26 12:55:24 (984 views)

hahaha.. I found out what the problem is with my car.. :) - LightWeight 2003-03-26 13:11:17 (931 views)

Now listen junior, don't get so happy about it..... - xccess 2003-03-26 13:15:13 (767 views)

It's AARP, and I don't see how that's going to do you any good unless you like eating dinner at 4:30 - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:57:13 (580 views)

Sir, I fixed it - xccess 2003-03-26 13:03:34 (562 views)

LOL. =) Also, thanks for the charts. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 13:05:56 (717 views)

NP, any time - xccess 2003-03-26 13:06:29 (650 views)

APR v3.3? I've seen a 2000 A-box v3.3 dyno 23hp/27lb-ft more than a 2001.5 M-box v3.2 - Third ROC 2003-03-26 12:40:30 (852 views)

Yes, v3.3.. - LightWeight 2003-03-26 12:48:42 (668 views)

That same 2000 APR A-box was 8hp less but 2 lb-ft more than a 2001.5 M-box GIAC X chip. - Third ROC 2003-03-26 12:46:31 (751 views)

Not really comparable, it depends on too many factors, the dyno itself being one of them. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:46:03 (532 views)

The cars I'm talking about were on the same dyno. The v3.2 runs were from several 2001+ cars. - Third ROC 2003-03-26 12:48:51 (651 views)

Looks like ABT and MTM have their shit together. Where are the MAP and A/F graphs? - BryanGT 2003-03-26 12:25:55 (841 views)

what block on VAG 002 ? - xccess 2003-03-26 12:36:45 (600 views)

Did you VAG log these runs? Post anything you got :-) - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:38:44 (575 views)

no but it is possible if the request is make.. - xccess 2003-03-26 12:40:25 (665 views)

Manifold pressure Vs. RPM, and the dyno's wideband O2 vs. RPM... - BryanGT 2003-03-26 12:47:22 (902 views)

003 (airflow and timing) for sure, maybe 115 (boost), 002 (air and fuel) - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:46:43 (691 views)

I assume we can do all three block at the same time right ? - xccess 2003-03-26 12:51:48 (570 views)

Like Bryan said wideband is best, then just do 115 (manifold pressure) and 003 (timing/air) - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 13:17:25 (586 views)

Yes, but you'll only get 1 sample per second that way. Do them seperately for a better sample rate. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:55:29 (636 views)

Air fuel is more accurate when read externally (Wideband); you should be able to read 2 blocks... - BryanGT 2003-03-26 12:55:17 (557 views)

How's this for a thought: - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:01:40 (1079 views)

lol poor MTM....the beer bitch. - SlowestS4Here 2003-03-26 12:27:40 (928 views)

And what about this dyno from AWE WebSite ??? 389 lbs-ft torque - Chuck-S4 2003-03-26 11:51:55 (1146 views)

different cars different run, can not be compare.. just like when I go to different dyno system - xccess 2003-03-26 12:49:21 (689 views)

Chuck definitely not comparable - Prodigy 2003-03-26 11:58:56 (659 views)

No, those are wheel numbers on that dyno. That's what an X will dyno on the dyno I've been on. - The R 2003-03-26 12:12:17 (711 views)

I'm talking about the 389 number he brought up - Prodigy 2003-03-26 12:13:52 (571 views)

Oh ok, gotcha. My bad...I'm in a hurry so I'm not paying attention. :-p - The R 2003-03-26 12:18:46 (565 views)

Many factors I know ; but I did buy my chip based on that dyno sheet. - Chuck-S4 2003-03-26 12:00:43 (614 views)

What year is an M box? - used2bmcouper-nowa6r 2003-03-26 11:44:30 (671 views)

2001.5 - DAP 2003-03-26 11:45:20 (697 views)

Damn, that M-box APR chip looks like it's broken... - LCP 2003-03-26 11:37:46 (1148 views)

it could , but I highly dout it since ABT was a first chip that ran - xccess 2003-03-26 11:40:40 (807 views)

Great work! That X -chip dyno is NOT smooth. Confirms what I felt when testing it. - Argeiphontes 2003-03-26 11:35:31 (1013 views)

For all that say the X is unrefined or overkill. Go buy an A4 give me the booooost! - BLK01S4 2003-07-02 09:08:44 (651 views)

Giac X is great,I have one for sale ..... - SDS4 2003-03-26 11:28:21 (2320 views)

Nice work. X chip has a serious a torque peak. - Symbiotic 2003-03-26 11:28:01 (858 views)

Has anyone elaborated on whats producing the spike ? - Prodigy 2003-03-26 11:33:44 (702 views)

It is pretty aggressive. However I was only seeing 15-17 PSI - Symbiotic 2003-03-26 11:49:17 (746 views)

The X seems a little, shall I say X-tream... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 11:38:51 (1009 views)

Unrefined??? - SlvrBulletS4 2003-03-26 11:46:00 (991 views)

large boost spikes, ruff power curves...what do you call it? Smooth? - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 11:48:35 (736 views)

No I call it torque! - SlvrBulletS4 2003-03-26 11:51:36 (870 views)

If only my x-chipped Titty pulled ahead on every shift.. :( - LightWeight 2003-03-26 12:51:56 (891 views)

If I wanted a peaky torque curve I'd buy a single turbo Supra... - BryanGT 2003-03-26 12:42:58 (902 views)

In the end the X chip take the trophy. - Blitz 4 U only $35k 2003-03-26 12:57:59 (756 views)

Theres a name for people who only care about peak power. Starts with "Dyno", ends with "Queen". :-P - BryanGT 2003-03-26 13:22:58 (656 views)

Until you're blowing oil all over'm ; ^ P - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 13:06:44 (712 views)

*DING* *DING* *DING* Winnar! - Argeiphontes 2003-03-26 12:57:29 (800 views)

I'm not talking about the "spike in power", but the large 1.5 bar boost spikes... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 12:02:12 (833 views)

XR = 1.5+bar and is unrefined. But vers.8 X is very smooth, controlled, and refined IMO. - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:33:39 (638 views)

Agreed... - Milpitas2.7T 2003-03-26 12:42:50 (717 views)

I'm guessing every one of those chips boosts above 1.2 bar. 1.3 peaks seem to be par for the course. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:09:54 (590 views)

yes 1.2+ bar at that rpm is within spec as per the compressor maps! - SlvrBulletS4 2003-03-26 12:06:28 (699 views)

Ok, well in my humble opinion the X-chip is still unrefined... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 12:18:59 (657 views)

Cut the X some slack man ;-). Also the fact the X runs a little richer is a plus. - Symbiotic 2003-03-26 12:43:06 (730 views)

Hmmm, that would have been fun... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 12:49:13 (656 views)

I long for the day when these compressor maps will be available for viewing....sigh - Prodigy 2003-03-26 12:11:47 (593 views)

www.sjmautotechnik.com - NonBenz OZ SL GB 2003-03-26 15:42:02 (857 views)

Ouch, looks like APR is having some timing issues on this M-Box... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 11:26:00 (741 views)

Did anybody ever dyno a APR 100? How does an APR100 compare to an X? - Boosted6 2003-03-26 12:00:00 (756 views)

Yes. - The R 2003-03-26 12:17:54 (831 views)

It will be interesting to see how my car handles the APR programming - Symbiotic 2003-03-26 11:42:50 (741 views)

Yeah, don't know what their deal is with the M box...only runs good if you have a Stage III. - The R 2003-03-26 11:28:13 (646 views)

Wow! Very nice! Thank you! - RKA 2003-03-26 11:24:37 (659 views)

This post will be referenced much in the future. Dare I say this post will end the debate? - Markcore 2003-03-26 11:24:04 (687 views)

I dout it :) - xccess 2003-03-26 11:27:05 (659 views)

Great work!! - Steve Trac 2003-03-26 11:19:08 (583 views)

damn. - stickerboy^TM uroslut 2003-03-26 11:17:26 (609 views)

nice work man...good of you to take the time. - Mr. Piggie(mike01s4) 2003-03-26 11:17:24 (780 views)

Was this APR's 93 octane program or the 91 running on 93? - used2bmcouper-nowa6r 2003-03-26 11:13:21 (896 views)

93 Octane V3.3 - The Reaper 2003-03-26 21:29:28 (668 views)

It looks more like the 85 octane program based on the timing. - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 11:17:51 (743 views)

APR actually seems to have better low end hp & torque than Abt. Just loses it above 4k RPMs - Mark P 2003-03-26 11:52:56 (751 views)

Yea so my APR chip is a big freaking POS....lots of torque though - used2bmcouper-nowa6r 2003-03-26 11:26:55 (1318 views)

Once they fix the timing above 4000rpm APR will be up there with the rest. - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:17:20 (557 views)

When is that going to happen? It's not like this is a new problem. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:19:04 (655 views)

it's going on right now - Mark P 2003-03-26 12:32:13 (735 views)

Patiently awaiting the M whooooWhhooOOOO. - Hal S4 2003-03-27 04:37:10 (551 views)

Excellent, keep us posted! - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:37:29 (545 views)

Good to hear, but kind of sad since the non-A box chips have been out for over 2 years. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:35:42 (619 views)

APR 93 on 93 octane - xccess 2003-03-26 11:15:54 (1185 views)

Do you have the orignial PDF files? Could you e-mail them to me? - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 11:12:20 (607 views)

no.. I did with the scanner and it turn in to the JPEG format... - xccess 2003-03-26 11:15:04 (657 views)

Could you e-mail me the large jpeg files? - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 11:18:25 (623 views)

sure..let me zip up and I will send it over - xccess 2003-03-26 11:20:48 (577 views)

Thx. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 11:22:53 (723 views)

Very cool! Nice job! - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 11:10:02 (734 views)

What about TAP? hehe - [H]Skrill 2003-03-26 11:07:47 (651 views)

got not TAP... - xccess 2003-03-26 11:10:34 (802 views)

Nice - totally agrees with my VAG acceleration results. X > ABT > MTM > APR. By the way, - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 11:07:02 (1025 views)

That seems *mostly* accurate with what I've seen on the local dyno - SmokinS4 w/Achtuning 2003-03-26 13:01:06 (769 views)

Look at the torque, not HP... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 11:31:12 (875 views)

I agree - the APR issue is in a narrow RPM window, after the TQ peak, but - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:21:17 (774 views)

I agree totally and the problem the APR M-box has is unacceptable - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 12:53:09 (782 views)

What are you running now. - 2k2S4 2003-03-26 12:56:29 (551 views)

Older APR 91/100... - s4IRIsH 2003-03-26 13:00:05 (705 views)

Darin didn't you also post boost vs. rpm plots - Prodigy 2003-03-26 11:29:23 (913 views)

Yep, X runs a little higher boost than ABT, at least 1psi on avg - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 12:24:39 (643 views)

hmm for some reason I thought it was more, maybe XR is the one I have in mind - Prodigy 2003-03-26 12:32:08 (640 views)

I believe what this means is if you had an X, you could probably hit 12s. =] - Markcore 2003-03-26 11:36:50 (660 views)

or - Prodigy 2003-03-26 11:47:04 (733 views)

we did try to run it with the race fuel, but the fuel is bad. - xccess 2003-03-26 11:12:17 (710 views)

dyno plots ownZ U!! - BiTurboBoy 2003-03-26 11:02:16 (705 views)

FYI.... - xccess 2003-03-26 11:08:49 (801 views)

Me thinks APR needs to do some revisions...pronto. - Hal S4 2003-03-26 11:00:15 (818 views)

V3.3 - LightWeight 2003-03-26 12:45:14 (567 views)

Yeah, the issue (timing) has been identified for some time now. - DarinS4Turbo 2003-03-26 11:11:49 (615 views)

And the X-Chip takes the cake in this comparo! Thx xccess! Great work. - SlowestS4Here 2003-03-26 10:59:21 (755 views)

were the rollers lubed before EVERY run??? Unscientific results! - MichaelTM 2003-03-26 10:55:55 (845 views)

I believe Todd has ask me to... - xccess 2003-03-26 11:00:42 (902 views)

it's good to have you back - i laugh more - dscottjr 2003-03-26 10:56:44 (709 views)

Hmm, the ABT HP curve is nice and smooth, like stock. - OldSkewS4 2003-03-26 10:53:22 (800 views)

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