VAG spec 508.00/509.00 oils
08-29-2019, 03:39 AM
#91
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10-02-2019, 08:50 AM
#93
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Hello, I'm new to this forum, but not new to this topic (spec VW 508). I read all posts here, including them to Mark Cincinnati. Here is my 2 cents:
- Yes, Audi and Volks state "only VW 508" and "REQUIRE VW 508". Here is why: they must state it this way to stand with the CAFE and EPA regulations they comply with. A simple analogy: the auto start/stop technology is also a part in the CAFE/EPA puzzle. Consequently, customers CAN'T deactivate it permanently, because the manufacturer couldn't get their "kudos" from the EPA agency. Same goes with oil spec VW 508: the driver in this spec is fuel economy long ODI. Consequently, the manufacturer states the spec as "ONLY" and "REQUIRED" to get the kudos from CAFE/EPA (i.e. reduced EPA tax).
- Yes, spec VW 508 comes with specific additive, even a green dye in it. But according a tech guru working at Total technical services (one of the largest oil company in the world, offering VW 508 compliant motor oil as well), the additive package is the same as....VW 504 oil formulation ! Clearly, the driver behind this spec is fuel economy. So if one uses VW 504 0W30, it won't break anything, especially not additive wise.
- Yes, this spec VW 508 is specified for B-cycle engine. Again, the driver behing this B-cycle is fuel economy (in the Volkswagen Tiguan, B-cycle offer comes with a decrease in horsepower and lazy from stop accelerations). It is true that some engine lubrication components has been revised around the 0W-20, VW 508 spec, such oil pump flow, but I don't expect any harm using one grade above, such 0W-30. Keep in mind the following, during cold ambiant temperature, any 0W-20 will always be way thicker than a 0W30 at operating temperature....and your B-cycle engine can actually handle this thick 0W-20 at start up.
I do plan to use Total Quartz Ineos Long Life 0W20 that meets VW 508 spec in my B-cycle 2.0 TSI engine. However, I consider mixing it with Total Quartz Ineos Long Life 5W30 that meets VW 504 during hot season to "strenghten" the oil film a bit (increasing wear protection in mind). Like I said earlier, this is the exact same formulation, so it ends up as fine tuning the desired viscosity.
Happy ride !
- Yes, Audi and Volks state "only VW 508" and "REQUIRE VW 508". Here is why: they must state it this way to stand with the CAFE and EPA regulations they comply with. A simple analogy: the auto start/stop technology is also a part in the CAFE/EPA puzzle. Consequently, customers CAN'T deactivate it permanently, because the manufacturer couldn't get their "kudos" from the EPA agency. Same goes with oil spec VW 508: the driver in this spec is fuel economy long ODI. Consequently, the manufacturer states the spec as "ONLY" and "REQUIRED" to get the kudos from CAFE/EPA (i.e. reduced EPA tax).
- Yes, spec VW 508 comes with specific additive, even a green dye in it. But according a tech guru working at Total technical services (one of the largest oil company in the world, offering VW 508 compliant motor oil as well), the additive package is the same as....VW 504 oil formulation ! Clearly, the driver behind this spec is fuel economy. So if one uses VW 504 0W30, it won't break anything, especially not additive wise.
- Yes, this spec VW 508 is specified for B-cycle engine. Again, the driver behing this B-cycle is fuel economy (in the Volkswagen Tiguan, B-cycle offer comes with a decrease in horsepower and lazy from stop accelerations). It is true that some engine lubrication components has been revised around the 0W-20, VW 508 spec, such oil pump flow, but I don't expect any harm using one grade above, such 0W-30. Keep in mind the following, during cold ambiant temperature, any 0W-20 will always be way thicker than a 0W30 at operating temperature....and your B-cycle engine can actually handle this thick 0W-20 at start up.
I do plan to use Total Quartz Ineos Long Life 0W20 that meets VW 508 spec in my B-cycle 2.0 TSI engine. However, I consider mixing it with Total Quartz Ineos Long Life 5W30 that meets VW 504 during hot season to "strenghten" the oil film a bit (increasing wear protection in mind). Like I said earlier, this is the exact same formulation, so it ends up as fine tuning the desired viscosity.
Happy ride !
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Audi Junkie (07-22-2022)
10-02-2019, 11:12 AM
#95
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1- how oil behave: with an increase of temperature, viscosity decreases and vice-versa.
2- 0w-20 thicker than a 0w-30? Of course, a 0w-20 at -20 celcius will always be a lot thicker than 0w-30, 5w-30, even a 10w-40 (and so on) at 100 celcius. See point 1 for oil behavior in regard to temperature.
My point was: if your engine can handle a thick, cold 0W-20 at startup, it can most likely handle a thin, hot 5W-30 at operating temperature. Well, it’s true that conditions differs between cold startup and highway (RPM, load, etc) but I just wished to put things in perspective about the risk to use a slightly heavier oil viscosity grade than recommended. Oil viscosity inside your engine varies all the time with temperature.
10-02-2019, 11:34 AM
#97
With great pleasure.
1- how oil behave: with an increase of temperature, viscosity decreases and vice-versa.
2- 0w-20 thicker than a 0w-30? Of course, a 0w-20 at -20 celcius will always be a lot thicker than 0w-30, 5w-30, even a 10w-40 (and so on) at 100 celcius. See point 1 for oil behavior in regard to temperature.
My point was: if your engine can handle a thick, cold 0W-20 at startup, it can most likely handle a thin, hot 5W-30 at operating temperature. Well, it’s true that conditions differs between cold startup and highway (RPM, load, etc) but I just wished to put things in perspective about the risk to use a slightly heavier oil viscosity grade than recommended. Oil viscosity inside your engine varies all the time with temperature.
1- how oil behave: with an increase of temperature, viscosity decreases and vice-versa.
2- 0w-20 thicker than a 0w-30? Of course, a 0w-20 at -20 celcius will always be a lot thicker than 0w-30, 5w-30, even a 10w-40 (and so on) at 100 celcius. See point 1 for oil behavior in regard to temperature.
My point was: if your engine can handle a thick, cold 0W-20 at startup, it can most likely handle a thin, hot 5W-30 at operating temperature. Well, it’s true that conditions differs between cold startup and highway (RPM, load, etc) but I just wished to put things in perspective about the risk to use a slightly heavier oil viscosity grade than recommended. Oil viscosity inside your engine varies all the time with temperature.
And yes, the 0w20 is mostly for emissions and fuel economy, combined with the b-cycle combustion process. Some of the non b-cycle motors have also moved to 0w20.
You’ll just need to trust the engineers, testing, and development of engines based around the specific oil, rather than guessing and trying to adjust/blend viscosities based on information read on the internet.
Run the recommended oil, change it at the recommended intervals, and you will have nothing to worry about.
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maceoC3PO (10-07-2019)
10-02-2019, 11:42 AM
#98
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I think there is some confusion here. And you need to compare apples to apples, meaning 0w20/0w30 at -20c and +100c. The cold viscosity should be the same (if not extremely similar) as they are both 0w oils. Where you will see a difference in viscosity is at higher temperatures, hence the 20 weight vs 30 weight.
And yes, the 0w20 is mostly for emissions and fuel economy, combined with the b-cycle combustion process. Some of the non b-cycle motors have also moved to 0w20.
You’ll just need to trust the engineers, testing, and development of engines based around the specific oil, rather than guessing and trying to adjust/blend viscosities based on information read on the internet.
Run the recommended oil, change it at the recommended intervals, and you will have nothing to worry about.
And yes, the 0w20 is mostly for emissions and fuel economy, combined with the b-cycle combustion process. Some of the non b-cycle motors have also moved to 0w20.
You’ll just need to trust the engineers, testing, and development of engines based around the specific oil, rather than guessing and trying to adjust/blend viscosities based on information read on the internet.
Run the recommended oil, change it at the recommended intervals, and you will have nothing to worry about.
I agree that guessing in mixing fluids based on Internet reading wouldn’t be advisable, that why I have comprehensive experience in used oil laboratory and have tested and correlated different viscosity grades to achieved desired viscosity at 100 C celcius in order to compensate engineer’s requested trade-offs.
10-07-2019, 02:14 PM
#99
With great pleasure.
1- how oil behave: with an increase of temperature, viscosity decreases and vice-versa.
2- 0w-20 thicker than a 0w-30? Of course, a 0w-20 at -20 celcius will always be a lot thicker than 0w-30, 5w-30, even a 10w-40 (and so on) at 100 celcius. See point 1 for oil behavior in regard to temperature.
My point was: if your engine can handle a thick, cold 0W-20 at startup, it can most likely handle a thin, hot 5W-30 at operating temperature. Well, it’s true that conditions differs between cold startup and highway (RPM, load, etc) but I just wished to put things in perspective about the risk to use a slightly heavier oil viscosity grade than recommended. Oil viscosity inside your engine varies all the time with temperature.
1- how oil behave: with an increase of temperature, viscosity decreases and vice-versa.
2- 0w-20 thicker than a 0w-30? Of course, a 0w-20 at -20 celcius will always be a lot thicker than 0w-30, 5w-30, even a 10w-40 (and so on) at 100 celcius. See point 1 for oil behavior in regard to temperature.
My point was: if your engine can handle a thick, cold 0W-20 at startup, it can most likely handle a thin, hot 5W-30 at operating temperature. Well, it’s true that conditions differs between cold startup and highway (RPM, load, etc) but I just wished to put things in perspective about the risk to use a slightly heavier oil viscosity grade than recommended. Oil viscosity inside your engine varies all the time with temperature.
Three questions
1. Im still unclear why a 0w20 is thicker than a 0w30 again at cold ambient temps
2. You mentioned the only thing driving the vw508 requirements is fuel economy requirements a d talked about vw504 having the same additives. I assume you have been privy to the actual requirements for each specification then. Can you please share them.
3. Can you advise if there are any differences in tolerances and oil requirements on this b cycle engine and is there any difference in the electromechanical variable oil pump programming on the 504 spec cars vs 508?
Thanks
10-07-2019, 03:14 PM
#100
Nick... Hmmmm.
Well - 0W-20 is the same flow or thickness(viscosity) when cold as 0W-30, hence the “0”. If the thickness was different at -20c SAE probably would not certify the rating scale across all oil brands as a standard.. would you agree?
When hot the 0W-30 is thicker than the 0W-20 as a few quick googles will confirm, not sure where you are coming from.
Post a link to anywhere that confirms your information, thanks.
Well - 0W-20 is the same flow or thickness(viscosity) when cold as 0W-30, hence the “0”. If the thickness was different at -20c SAE probably would not certify the rating scale across all oil brands as a standard.. would you agree?
When hot the 0W-30 is thicker than the 0W-20 as a few quick googles will confirm, not sure where you are coming from.
Post a link to anywhere that confirms your information, thanks.
Last edited by Pauly001; 10-07-2019 at 03:16 PM.