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Firstly, sorry for your hassle.
I think an interesting point here is that Audi knew the car was tuned. Did you always flash back to stock before all of services? In that case, they might have flagged it at a prior service and just kept that information.
I'll just make the point here that this is not computer rocket science - pretty much any computer system these days can be tested for tampering and there are many methods to detect or prevent it. The basic premise with engine ECUs is usually a software checksum - a math algorithm that verifies if the software has changed or been replaced. Any aftermarket flash will change the checksum value, and chips often have a counter showing how many times they've been reset or overwritten, so with Audi your only real alternative is to physically replace your ECU between a modded and factory-clean unit, or use a third-party external piggyback ECU - a device that mods the input/output signals going to the ECU to deliver increased perfomance. ie: the ECU commands parameter X at half-throttle, the piggyback interrupts and sendsY to the system. Chipwerke is an example but there are dozens of brands out there for various car brands. Then you just physically unplug the piggyback before warranty service, and there's no trace of the modifications at all. Audi apparently is among the most draconian company policies on aftermarket mods - now requiring a checksum scan on every major service interval (so I hear), by comparison Volkswagen itself is known to be much more lenient, leaving it up to the discretion of the dealership.
Sorry to hear about your problems, but honestly.. I can't have a lot of sympathy. All aftermarket mod providers give you a pretty standard boilerplate warning - they do not guarantee their product won't cause additional wear & tear, or potential damage to your car. Being tested and demonstrated safely is not the same as proven or warrantied safe. And as others mentioned, the damage in your photos really looks like FOD to me - that's not caused by software, but when you willingly violated Audi's terms of warranty, that's their excuse out to play hardball with you. Unfortunately I think you'd really need to demonstrate the chain of evidence- where the FOD came from (maybe a service job shortly before?) and the actual source of the damage to get around it, and that would almost definitely mean suing Audi. As-is, they have proof you violated your warranty, deliberately 'and we can prove it', while you don't have proof to support your claim.
I had HPA DSG and ECU tuning for over a decade on Volkswagens, and never a single hiccup or warranty concern with 5 different VW dealers in WA, OR, BC or AB. But I'm very careful with Audi until the car is out of powertrain warranty.
I'll just make the point here that this is not computer rocket science - pretty much any computer system these days can be tested for tampering and there are many methods to detect or prevent it. The basic premise with engine ECUs is usually a software checksum - a math algorithm that verifies if the software has changed or been replaced. Any aftermarket flash will change the checksum value, and chips often have a counter showing how many times they've been reset or overwritten, so with Audi your only real alternative is to physically replace your ECU between a modded and factory-clean unit, or use a third-party external piggyback ECU - a device that mods the input/output signals going to the ECU to deliver increased perfomance. ie: the ECU commands parameter X at half-throttle, the piggyback interrupts and sendsY to the system. Chipwerke is an example but there are dozens of brands out there for various car brands. Then you just physically unplug the piggyback before warranty service, and there's no trace of the modifications at all. Audi apparently is among the most draconian company policies on aftermarket mods - now requiring a checksum scan on every major service interval (so I hear), by comparison Volkswagen itself is known to be much more lenient, leaving it up to the discretion of the dealership.
Sorry to hear about your problems, but honestly.. I can't have a lot of sympathy. All aftermarket mod providers give you a pretty standard boilerplate warning - they do not guarantee their product won't cause additional wear & tear, or potential damage to your car. Being tested and demonstrated safely is not the same as proven or warrantied safe. And as others mentioned, the damage in your photos really looks like FOD to me - that's not caused by software, but when you willingly violated Audi's terms of warranty, that's their excuse out to play hardball with you. Unfortunately I think you'd really need to demonstrate the chain of evidence- where the FOD came from (maybe a service job shortly before?) and the actual source of the damage to get around it, and that would almost definitely mean suing Audi. As-is, they have proof you violated your warranty, deliberately 'and we can prove it', while you don't have proof to support your claim.
I had HPA DSG and ECU tuning for over a decade on Volkswagens, and never a single hiccup or warranty concern with 5 different VW dealers in WA, OR, BC or AB. But I'm very careful with Audi until the car is out of powertrain warranty.
The way VW-Audi usually flag TD1 for ECU tunes is VERY simple. The ECU has a hardware flash counter. When the ECU accepts a flash the hardware increments the flash counter. This cannot be reset and cannot be prevented from incrementing. If it is done at the dealership, the VW-Audi database will also record that flash event. So, if the car's flash counter says "5" but VW-Audi's record says that the car has had "4" ECU flash service events on record, you are flagged TD1. It's very simple.
There is actually a way to open up the ECU, clip on a PROM programmer and write the chip that way. Or, if you want, desolder the chip and solder on another. If you do this, you will still be flagged TD1 because now the ECU code is different and the checksum is different. This will also not match the records VW-Audi has on file.
Also, if you open the ECU, that will break the seal and it'll also flag TD1 -- but this requires the dealer's MkI eyes.
You CAN buy a new ECU. But it'll be useless in your car unless you take it to the dealer and hook it up the the VW-Audi network to key it to the vehicle. When you do that they'll want the old ECU back! If you refuse, you get flagged.
What I don't understand with regards to the why anyone will repair the car for $40K when $40K + the scrap value of the car is about the same as the value of the car?
I had the same thing happen last March, I sold the RS broken and have an MB GT63s, absolutely amazing car, I couldn't be happier. I will never own an Audi again, not because of the car but due to very poor customer service and relations. Just a terrible experience with them. Jury is our out on the Benz, I have had the most amazing experiences Chevy over the years, I even had an entire engine replaced in Z06 at no charge after throwing a rod on the race track.
Originally Posted by Jvise
I’m an avid car lover and have been blessed to have the opportunity to own several different vehicles from muscle to exotics. My first Audi branded vehicle was the RS7. I own 15+ vehicles, including a 2018 720S and 2018 911 TTS. I am averaging one purchase every 4-6 months. I’m not trying to boast, just merely attempting to communicate my automobile infatuation. My intentions for this article are to be informational, factual and non-emotional. In no way do I want to “blast” any outfit.
I’ve had the APR stage 1 tune installed for over 32k miles with zero issues. Early one morning, I was driving to office and motor sputtered with CEL appearing. I read the code thru the APR ap and it stated misfire in cylinder 1. I had the tune removed and brought into dealer. Computer still read that ECU was previously tuned and car was flagged as “TD1”. I authorized full evaluation at my expense and the findings were, “turbo impellers damaged, evidence of dirt in intake system, cylinder 1 not holding compression, excessive metal particles in oil.” Dealer denied warranty and quotes approximately $50k for new engine block and turbos. See pics below.
Action items:
-I called Goodspeed (APR dealer that installed) and they refused to assist, telling me to call APR.
-I contacted APR numerous times with very little assistance. They claimed they didn’t feel the tune could have caused this damage and that something foreign may have entered the turbos, possibly a loose item that was left during last service at dealer. They would not provide anything in writing and stopped returning calls.
-I called AWE to see if there was any part of intake that could have become loose and suck into turbos and they were very little help. They did mention there was a newer version that I could “upgrade” to.
-I contacted Audi corporate requesting any sort of “good will” help and they refused.
-I met with Audi Chandler and they reduced quote by about 10% as a good faith gesture and I proceeded with repair.
The unknown:
-Did the APR tune directly cause engine failure?
-Did OEM turbo fail as a manufacture defect and warranty was denied based off tune?
-Was there a loose part left within intake after last dealer service?
The bottom line and lesson learned:
When you alter the ECU on these cars, you are opening Pandora’s box for any unknown issues to appear. I will never truly know what root cause of failure was, but I’m certain if car wasn’t tuned, engine failure wouldn’t have occurred, or it would have been covered under warranty.
P.S. I replaced the RS7 with 2019 MB E63S and couldn’t be happier. I’ll save that for the MB forum. . .
I’m an avid car lover and have been blessed to have the opportunity to own several different vehicles from muscle to exotics. My first Audi branded vehicle was the RS7. I own 15+ vehicles, including a 2018 720S and 2018 911 TTS. I am averaging one purchase every 4-6 months. I’m not trying to boast, just merely attempting to communicate my automobile infatuation. My intentions for this article are to be informational, factual and non-emotional. In no way do I want to “blast” any outfit.
I’ve had the APR stage 1 tune installed for over 32k miles with zero issues. Early one morning, I was driving to office and motor sputtered with CEL appearing. I read the code thru the APR ap and it stated misfire in cylinder 1. I had the tune removed and brought into dealer. Computer still read that ECU was previously tuned and car was flagged as “TD1”. I authorized full evaluation at my expense and the findings were, “turbo impellers damaged, evidence of dirt in intake system, cylinder 1 not holding compression, excessive metal particles in oil.” Dealer denied warranty and quotes approximately $50k for new engine block and turbos. See pics below.
Action items:
-I called Goodspeed (APR dealer that installed) and they refused to assist, telling me to call APR.
-I contacted APR numerous times with very little assistance. They claimed they didn’t feel the tune could have caused this damage and that something foreign may have entered the turbos, possibly a loose item that was left during last service at dealer. They would not provide anything in writing and stopped returning calls.
-I called AWE to see if there was any part of intake that could have become loose and suck into turbos and they were very little help. They did mention there was a newer version that I could “upgrade” to.
-I contacted Audi corporate requesting any sort of “good will” help and they refused.
-I met with Audi Chandler and they reduced quote by about 10% as a good faith gesture and I proceeded with repair.
The unknown:
-Did the APR tune directly cause engine failure?
-Did OEM turbo fail as a manufacture defect and warranty was denied based off tune?
-Was there a loose part left within intake after last dealer service?
The bottom line and lesson learned:
When you alter the ECU on these cars, you are opening Pandora’s box for any unknown issues to appear. I will never truly know what root cause of failure was, but I’m certain if car wasn’t tuned, engine failure wouldn’t have occurred, or it would have been covered under warranty.
P.S. I replaced the RS7 with 2019 MB E63S and couldn’t be happier. I’ll save that for the MB forum. . .
My 2017 RS7 with 62,000km had to be towed last week. It was idling rough, then stalling whenever the rpms fell below 1,000. The initial error message was for the dynamic steering. A few km later, the engine light came on so we pulled over and had it towed. The initial diagnosis was a turbo blew and need replacing. However, they found metal particles in the oil and engine and now it is being taken apart with the possibility of a new engine required. We made no alterations to this vehicle and have maintained it on schedule. There is another RS7 with the same problem in the same dealer at the same time. It seems this is a common failure, not caused by your alterations.
So, reading the latest response, I'm hearing a strong resemblance to the failure in my 2016 RS7. I had a service to replace the oil separator, 100 miles later... seized engine. Audi dealer and AoA blamed tune. I blamed service. Since AoA stayed firm, as did the dealer, I sent the engine to UAE (long story, but if you watch the videos you'll see why I'd do such a crazy thing) and they ultimately found both dealer and I were both wrong. The oil pump seized and was stuck on low pressure. So, as rpms increased, oil did not.
The components farthest away from the source didn't receive enough oil, and damage occurred. The culprit looks to be the cast aluminum housing the hardened stainless shafts ride in. Mine has play that allowed the gears to over-mesh. I wonder how many of these new failures (not the original post) could be due to the same thing.
Here's a link to the first of video of the series. I find Tasos to be fascinating.
So these engines are known to have the turbo issue caused by the clogged oil screen, numerous reports on the 3.0 and 4.0 engines, could this not be the cause of the engine failure? I would think anyone tuning these engines would install the upgraded oil screen as a preventive measure?
09-21-2019, 04:16 PM
