Toluene revisited
05-06-2001, 06:17 PM
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Toluene revisited
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506185839271.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190036239.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506185918870.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190042393.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190032454.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
(note, graphs may take time to load)
In the past I did some acceleration tests with / without toluene and found no discernable difference as measured by a stopwatch (car is stock). I decided to try again, this time recording knock sensor voltage & timing retard. Tests were run in 4th gear from idle speed (720 rpm) to redline (6600 rpm). Fuel level was measured with VAG-COM before toluene was added (the car was driven 28 minutes after addition before testing again). The test was initiated, with the car cruising at idle speed, by flooring the gas pedal. The road was straight with an uphill rise. Recorded were knock voltage by cylinder, timing retard by cylinder, engine speed and net engine torque (all with VAG-COM). First thing that was noticed when viewing all the data was how knock is not solely dependent on sensor voltage. Both the rate of change in the signal and the operating condition of the engine are required. Additionally the retarded cylinder does not necessarily correspond to the sensor most effected. A cursory look of the sensor voltage does not show much difference between premium gas and a mix containing 20% toluene. Timing retard is experienced as soon as a heavy load is placed on the engine. The throttle quickly opens to 2/3 open as soon as the gas pedal is floored. One less cylinder experienced a knock threshold on the run with toluene and timing reverted back to the map points as speed increased. Without toluene cylinder #3, then #4, required additional retarding. From the speed chart you can see that while cylinder #3 was being retarded on the gas only run the toluene run began to pull ahead. At the 100 mph mark the 20% toluene run was about 1 second ahead. At any given point in time beyond the 10 second mark horsepower was greater with toluene because engine speed or engine speed and torque were greater. At the point where horsepower falls with increasing engine speed the horsepower of the two runs were about the same even though the toluene run was running at greater speed because of the lower drop in torque relative to the same engine speed with only gas. Has anyone checked the effect on chipped engines?
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190036239.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506185918870.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190042393.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
<img src="http://im1per.shutterfly.com/procserv?si=00002937301920010506190032454.JPG&ps=0 &rx=640&ry=480">
(note, graphs may take time to load)
In the past I did some acceleration tests with / without toluene and found no discernable difference as measured by a stopwatch (car is stock). I decided to try again, this time recording knock sensor voltage & timing retard. Tests were run in 4th gear from idle speed (720 rpm) to redline (6600 rpm). Fuel level was measured with VAG-COM before toluene was added (the car was driven 28 minutes after addition before testing again). The test was initiated, with the car cruising at idle speed, by flooring the gas pedal. The road was straight with an uphill rise. Recorded were knock voltage by cylinder, timing retard by cylinder, engine speed and net engine torque (all with VAG-COM). First thing that was noticed when viewing all the data was how knock is not solely dependent on sensor voltage. Both the rate of change in the signal and the operating condition of the engine are required. Additionally the retarded cylinder does not necessarily correspond to the sensor most effected. A cursory look of the sensor voltage does not show much difference between premium gas and a mix containing 20% toluene. Timing retard is experienced as soon as a heavy load is placed on the engine. The throttle quickly opens to 2/3 open as soon as the gas pedal is floored. One less cylinder experienced a knock threshold on the run with toluene and timing reverted back to the map points as speed increased. Without toluene cylinder #3, then #4, required additional retarding. From the speed chart you can see that while cylinder #3 was being retarded on the gas only run the toluene run began to pull ahead. At the 100 mph mark the 20% toluene run was about 1 second ahead. At any given point in time beyond the 10 second mark horsepower was greater with toluene because engine speed or engine speed and torque were greater. At the point where horsepower falls with increasing engine speed the horsepower of the two runs were about the same even though the toluene run was running at greater speed because of the lower drop in torque relative to the same engine speed with only gas. Has anyone checked the effect on chipped engines?
05-07-2001, 06:44 AM
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I've said it before and I will say it again....
Hello,
Nice work, John. I will always applaud someone who actually takes the time to do an experiment.
There is no argument from me on the effectiveness of toluene as an octane boost. I would just like to post a caveat again to warn against the typical, if a little is good, alot must be better, mentality. What is interesting is that you are running 20% toluene in your tests and seeing only a marginal difference under high load conditions. I would warn against anyone going to higher concentration to obtain a greater effect. Slowing down the combustion process too much under high loads will cause burning of valves and high HC emissions.
With that said, it would be nice to see this work with a chipped car. Perhaps there is someone in your area that could swap an ECU with you for the day, or run a side-by-side test under the same conditions. Also, what is the side-by-side effect of regular octane booster in comparision.
This last point is of relavence to my argument that people should not trust 100% toluene purchased as "paint stripper" as being 100% clean.
Improper fuel is the best way to destroy a motor.
Your post thankfully reinforces my earlier argument that toluene is not "rocket fuel" as some people who use it suggest. If you are seeing that much increase in power, you should be running race gas or need serious help with your engine management system.
Once again, thanks for the research effort!
Michael
Nice work, John. I will always applaud someone who actually takes the time to do an experiment.
There is no argument from me on the effectiveness of toluene as an octane boost. I would just like to post a caveat again to warn against the typical, if a little is good, alot must be better, mentality. What is interesting is that you are running 20% toluene in your tests and seeing only a marginal difference under high load conditions. I would warn against anyone going to higher concentration to obtain a greater effect. Slowing down the combustion process too much under high loads will cause burning of valves and high HC emissions.
With that said, it would be nice to see this work with a chipped car. Perhaps there is someone in your area that could swap an ECU with you for the day, or run a side-by-side test under the same conditions. Also, what is the side-by-side effect of regular octane booster in comparision.
This last point is of relavence to my argument that people should not trust 100% toluene purchased as "paint stripper" as being 100% clean.
Improper fuel is the best way to destroy a motor.
Your post thankfully reinforces my earlier argument that toluene is not "rocket fuel" as some people who use it suggest. If you are seeing that much increase in power, you should be running race gas or need serious help with your engine management system.
Once again, thanks for the research effort!
Michael
05-07-2001, 01:12 PM
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Good post John, I am chipped and have a VAG Tool but don't know how to use it beyond checking DFCs
...so far, I would like to learn more but as I said have just started to work with the thing. I have high speed high rpm hesitation which I think could be my knock sensor raining on the parade, but I don't know. If you explain how to do it I will do some tests and see if there is anything there worth knowing. Email me, JIM
05-07-2001, 02:22 PM
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The most you will get out of ANY quantity of tolulene or other octane enhancers...
is a reduction in timing retard, which was seen.
Were the car closer to the detonation threshold, or the timing maps able to use MORE timing, I am sure that more effect could be made from this.
I'd be interested to see what tolulene and water injection together could do.
Were the car closer to the detonation threshold, or the timing maps able to use MORE timing, I am sure that more effect could be made from this.
I'd be interested to see what tolulene and water injection together could do.
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