Take a look at the three seperate incidents from the Japanese GP...
10-14-2008, 05:17 PM
#12
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I don't know about this one...
I agree that there should have been no penalty handed out, but I really don't know who was at fault. Bourdais appeared to stay very far right (his wheel was on the curbing) and do what he was supposed to do while Massa seemed to just ignore that Bourdais was even there. Massa had just done the fastest lap of the race the previous lap so my guess is that he was knee deep in the "red mist". Had Massa been the leader, or ahead on track, then maybe Bourdais would of backed out, but I don't feel that he needed to do so under the circumstances. I think Bourdais lost the investigation because the situation was driving-for-his-job vs. possible-world-champion, Ferrari vs. Ferrari customer, etc.
10-14-2008, 05:28 PM
#13
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Like Bourdais said, "I should have rolled out the red carpet for him." Pure BS
It was Massa's fault, he is the overtaking car, and therin lies the responsibilty to make a clean pass. Bourdais was as far to the right as he could be. Screw Massa.
10-14-2008, 06:03 PM
#14
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I don't think Massa could even see him, but Bourdais could see Massa
Looks like Massa (almost) clears Bourdais in the brake zone, and then just assumes Bourdais would slot in behind. Clearly a bad assumption, but Bourdais' attempt to take the inside line and run side by side was highly optimistic. Massa is right to be pissed at that move.
I'm getting all this from the last clip in the video, where the camera is angled BACK at Massa but still has a frontal angle on Bourdais. Massa has no straight sightline to Bourdais, and Bourdais is also probably wide of Massa's mirror angle. Bourdais appears to narrow the gap slightly in the first part of the turn. In other words, he's attempting a faster corner entry despite being well off line to the inside.
I'm getting all this from the last clip in the video, where the camera is angled BACK at Massa but still has a frontal angle on Bourdais. Massa has no straight sightline to Bourdais, and Bourdais is also probably wide of Massa's mirror angle. Bourdais appears to narrow the gap slightly in the first part of the turn. In other words, he's attempting a faster corner entry despite being well off line to the inside.
10-14-2008, 09:14 PM
#15
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So many things wrong in that video...
Arnoux didn't wait more than one corner before attacking after cutting the track, after he clearly gained an advantage by doing so....
Gilles didn't get a drive through for avoidable contact.
Both of them banged wheels and their cars didn't shatter into a bajillion little shreds of carbon fiber.
No sir, we can't have that kind of shenanigannery happening today. No sir.
*Says the man who has watched less F1 this year than in the previous 30 years of his F1 fandom, and has zero regrets. Thank you Aussie V8s, BTCC, WTCC and WRC for reminding me what real racing looks like.
Gilles didn't get a drive through for avoidable contact.
Both of them banged wheels and their cars didn't shatter into a bajillion little shreds of carbon fiber.
No sir, we can't have that kind of shenanigannery happening today. No sir.
*Says the man who has watched less F1 this year than in the previous 30 years of his F1 fandom, and has zero regrets. Thank you Aussie V8s, BTCC, WTCC and WRC for reminding me what real racing looks like.
10-15-2008, 06:24 AM
#17
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No but if you smoke the stuff she does I can see that you can't see clearly...
My points are very fair, logical and without bias.
1- Lewis screwed up and paid for it with his tires. No need for idiots on the sidelines to attribute a 25 seconds penalty. Brain fade from a driver has happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Do you really want non professional people sitting somewhere on the track second guessing the drivers?
2- IMHO Massa's incident was far worst because there was contact and he broke the cutting a chicane rule. Why does he get the same penalty Lewis got?
3- Bourdais had the right away, period. Massa should have slacked off and taken him later on that lap. So call it a race incident and do not attribute a penalty to either. But to give Bourdais a post race penalty is just absurd.
Two really bad mistakes/moves from Massa and as far as I'm concern he got away with murder!
Again just my $0.02.
1- Lewis screwed up and paid for it with his tires. No need for idiots on the sidelines to attribute a 25 seconds penalty. Brain fade from a driver has happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Do you really want non professional people sitting somewhere on the track second guessing the drivers?
2- IMHO Massa's incident was far worst because there was contact and he broke the cutting a chicane rule. Why does he get the same penalty Lewis got?
3- Bourdais had the right away, period. Massa should have slacked off and taken him later on that lap. So call it a race incident and do not attribute a penalty to either. But to give Bourdais a post race penalty is just absurd.
Two really bad mistakes/moves from Massa and as far as I'm concern he got away with murder!
Again just my $0.02.
10-15-2008, 07:54 AM
#18
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Before we get into the whole Lewis thing, don't forget these same non pros put Kubica and Kimi under
investigation for their antics on turn 2 or 3 i think. 2nd these non pros are just like refs in any other sport sometimes they get it right somtimes, they get it wrong.
Back to Lewis, his turn 1 shenanigans clearly underline why the other drivers think he is dangerous, he damn well knew he had no chance to pass kimi there, yet he gets so blinded by his ego almost seems like he doesn't care about anything else. I liken it to a LB in football coming from the outside to get a sack and the the QB starts stepping up into the pocket, all of a sudden the LB is about to miss but he is so determined to sack the QB that he sticks a hand out and grabs the QB by the face mask. So mission accomplished got the QB down but its a penalty. He even pushed his teammate over to squeeze into that spot, what an a-hole to have for a teammate. So the drive thru penalty was appropriate.
Massa's penalty no excuses for him he did punt Lewis and got the appropriate drive thru penalty. I think the only reason he didn't get the chicane penalty was that all 4 wheels didn't go on the grass.
Look in the end they only have themselves to blame for f-ing up their own races.
Back to Lewis, his turn 1 shenanigans clearly underline why the other drivers think he is dangerous, he damn well knew he had no chance to pass kimi there, yet he gets so blinded by his ego almost seems like he doesn't care about anything else. I liken it to a LB in football coming from the outside to get a sack and the the QB starts stepping up into the pocket, all of a sudden the LB is about to miss but he is so determined to sack the QB that he sticks a hand out and grabs the QB by the face mask. So mission accomplished got the QB down but its a penalty. He even pushed his teammate over to squeeze into that spot, what an a-hole to have for a teammate. So the drive thru penalty was appropriate.
Massa's penalty no excuses for him he did punt Lewis and got the appropriate drive thru penalty. I think the only reason he didn't get the chicane penalty was that all 4 wheels didn't go on the grass.
Look in the end they only have themselves to blame for f-ing up their own races.
10-15-2008, 08:43 AM
#19
Turn 1 - Hamilton was over optimistic, clearly, but...
Screwing up and outbraking yourself is its own penalty. He didn't really "force" Kimi to do anything.
Look at it this way - if it had been just LH and Kimi on track dueling for position, LH would have overcooked the turn and gone straight off. Kimi would then tap the brakes, turn in as normal behind LH's straightlining car, taking the turn and the position. Kimi and Ferrari would have been happy as pigs in slop
So, LH effed it up grandly. The only thing that "forced" Kimi off track was the presence of other traffic. Notably, Kovaleinen.
This kind of crap happens in racing.
As for Massa, HE's the one with the ego who thinks everybody should clear out of his way.
He blew the chicane totally, braked too late, and went wide. He almost missed the chicane completely. Easy mistake to make, IMO, because of the way the track is set up. So, in this case, HE overcooked the turn, but still thought he was in a position to defend the corner. Sorry, son, ain't gonna work. He should've backed off and tucked in. Instead he went off track and punted LH. A 25 second penalty was hardly enough, since LH was forced to wait for the entire field to go by before he could get back on track. This incident is not too much different from Schuey's torpedo move on Villeneuve, which cost him (deservedly) all his points for the season.
As far as Bourdais goes, Massa just drove right into him. Was Bourdais supposed to stop for him? Cars in pitlane exit had right of way, as explicitly stated by Whiting. I don't recall seeing any Yield signs for pit-out.
This brings up another point. If I were Charlie Whiting, I'd be seriously pissed off. I mean, is he "race control," or what? Twice, now, his explicit instructions (the pit lane thing, as well as giving McLaren the "OK" at Spa) have been publicly and controversially countermanded
by the "amateurs." The marshals should fall under his command,not operate independently like the loose cannons they are.
Look at it this way - if it had been just LH and Kimi on track dueling for position, LH would have overcooked the turn and gone straight off. Kimi would then tap the brakes, turn in as normal behind LH's straightlining car, taking the turn and the position. Kimi and Ferrari would have been happy as pigs in slop
So, LH effed it up grandly. The only thing that "forced" Kimi off track was the presence of other traffic. Notably, Kovaleinen.
This kind of crap happens in racing.
As for Massa, HE's the one with the ego who thinks everybody should clear out of his way.
He blew the chicane totally, braked too late, and went wide. He almost missed the chicane completely. Easy mistake to make, IMO, because of the way the track is set up. So, in this case, HE overcooked the turn, but still thought he was in a position to defend the corner. Sorry, son, ain't gonna work. He should've backed off and tucked in. Instead he went off track and punted LH. A 25 second penalty was hardly enough, since LH was forced to wait for the entire field to go by before he could get back on track. This incident is not too much different from Schuey's torpedo move on Villeneuve, which cost him (deservedly) all his points for the season.
As far as Bourdais goes, Massa just drove right into him. Was Bourdais supposed to stop for him? Cars in pitlane exit had right of way, as explicitly stated by Whiting. I don't recall seeing any Yield signs for pit-out.
This brings up another point. If I were Charlie Whiting, I'd be seriously pissed off. I mean, is he "race control," or what? Twice, now, his explicit instructions (the pit lane thing, as well as giving McLaren the "OK" at Spa) have been publicly and controversially countermanded
by the "amateurs." The marshals should fall under his command,not operate independently like the loose cannons they are.
10-15-2008, 08:52 AM
#20
LOL. Brits are the most chauvinistic F1 fans in the world...
If you're British, you can do no wrong. Look at all the hoopla over Jenson Button. Or Nigel Mansell, for that matter.
Nigel Roebuck is a huge UK cheerleader, too.
LH has god-like driving skills, it's true, but he has all the maturity and judgement of, well, a guy in his early 20's, I guess...
Nigel Roebuck is a huge UK cheerleader, too.
LH has god-like driving skills, it's true, but he has all the maturity and judgement of, well, a guy in his early 20's, I guess...