Anyone here running the NASA 25 hour?
10-17-2005, 09:10 AM
#31
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well, thats a large part of what I get out of it...
I enjoy the garage time, it's recreational and theraputic. I do have help with the car and a crew at the races but I find that I don't "crave" track time like I did a few years ago...I'm pretty satisfied with our schedule except there's been a LONG road taking a worked car and making it suitable for our needs. It seems to be nearly there and at the last test day most of the things we did were improvements (including mundane things like figuring out how to get the splitter to stop getting torn off).
Still, if you're volunteering :-)
Still, if you're volunteering :-)
10-17-2005, 11:08 AM
#32
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I don't have an account on Rennlist
Here you go, here's a test of your ADD to see if you can read one of my posts longer than a sentence and understand it. And if you want condescending..>
Though I did post on the DSR forum (which has received a deafening silence from West) and sent an e-mail to West because I'm interested in this program (and others) and am highly dubious about your ability to tell the whole unexagerrated truth in a post (waiting for my $600 set of tires that can do 30 heat cycles and my $3k hayabusa that will run for years ROTFLMAO) or discuss the technical aspects intelligently (based on your innacurate ranting about Stohr with Mark a while back). It's an interesting subject that you aren't qualified to intelligently discuss. If Mark or Randy want to hop on and talk about it, I'd love to hear from them because they could probably provide useful content rather than some vague assertions.
What is the motor, what is the drive? Who built the motor? What sort of brakes does it use? Did the heim-jointed delicate suspension get replaced with bushed robust suspension? Where did they put the fuell cell? Do you know how much fuel that car uses in 1.5 hours? How was the fuel cell (which would have to be around 13 gallons) 100% contained inside the chassis that's only designed to hold 5? They would have had to significantly widen the chassis/frame rails to enclose the cell and that would be an interesting modification I or Mark would love to hear about. How did they weatherproof the car? How much current do the lights + cooling fans draw? I know exactly how much current a motorcycle alternator puts out and how much the consumables consume and there's a problem that simply adding a battery wouldn't solve with 11+ volts of JUST headlights (forget the tail lights, ignition and fans) so I'd like to know how they got around that.
I have no doubt whatsoever about Randy Pobsts ability as a driver or experience to be able to handle any sort of race car he's in but you can drop his name all day but what you are talking about is a car that's never raced, a type of car that's never been in a single enduro, a team that's never been in a single enduro and taking on a 25 hour race (probably in bad weather) with 50+ sedans and you figure you guys pretty much have the whole thing worked out because of the driver lineup? Note the car that won last year (with Randy as one of the drivers) was a Porsche not a sports racer and there are some pretty sound reasons for that.
How about a list of all the enduros or enduro championships West/Stohr have won? Do you know how many professional racing drivers and teams compete in the 25 hour? We have three pro drivers in our freaking E2 Civic! If you expect us to be awed because a completely untested car with a team with exactly ZERO experience in this race (or endurance racing chain-driven motorcycle-engine sports racers) and then you are exactly associated how? You introduced some drivers? you need to re-read the definition of "condescending". I wish them all the luck in the world because it's a great idea and would be a stupendous accomplishment. If they haven't even done one single enduro in the car and they don't even know for sure if they're going to do it a mere 2 months out, that's a program with a lower chance of success than some of the other cars I've heard about people building for that class.
And somehow answering Mark's questions and expounding on other aspects of car setup for NASA enduros is condescending is it Mike? You, have never driven, built, maintained, supported or owned an endurance-racing chain-driven motorcycle-engine race car. You lecturing Mark Dalen on Stohrs a while back pretty much set the mood for this thread. Your "facts" were simply blathering bull**** and exagerration demonstrating a lack of hands-on knowledge or experience to have a legitimate frame of refrence to discuss technical aspects. How much racing did you do in your motorcycle-engined, chain-driven sports racer in that period? Oh none? You don't own one?, you are always an expert by association not by participation right? As I thought, you were incapible about answering the questions Mark asked and simply made vague assertions. Since this isn't F1, I highly doubt there is any "secret" information because you wouldn't have mentioned it if it was "secret".
How about the number of enduros Radical cars have won in the US vs. Stohrs (you have no idea of even a ballpark number do you). I'm not a representative for Radical, don't care much about that company but your continual ranting about them is assanine. Lee Stohr dominated DSR again this year (clubbing West's cars like baby seals and there wasn't even a single Radical entered in DSR)) and in CSR Radical was the highest placed non-Atlantic car (2nd) ahead of every single Stohr. How do you reconcile those FACTS with your blathering? Those are the facts. Stohr cars (of any sort) have never won a single enduro anywhere in the US. This makes them unproven in this arena.
I won two consecutive NASA endurance racing championships out west here with my Radical primarly because few others wanted to show up and race their (even more) delicate cars...McGee motorsports did the same in the SCCA enduros out here in a nearly identical car to mine. Adam Zimmerman was winning enduros on the East Coast up to when he was killed in his Radical. A Radical SR3 won the ESR class at the 25 hour last year (but couldn't match the reliability + pace of the Porsches that have won that race every year it was held). They and I are the only teams/drivers in the united states to win endurance championships in motorcycle powered sports racers and that (gasp) MIGHT give me a LEEEEEETLE bit of insight that someone on the "Sidelines" like yourself doesn't have. I won the 12 hour in my Civic, we taught the owner of PDQ motorsports all about endurance racing (he was on our crew for several years) and he won the 25 hour in class and was 7th overall in a car that was 2nd from the lowest class, what is YOUR experience entering and competing in this race Mike? I've DONE IT and though I'm no Randy Pobst, I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do so unless you can actually ANSWER a question rather than just saying "yes it has headlights" or speaking for other people who conveniently don't post here, why don't you go back into your cave?
Tough ****ing **** if you or anyone you are associated finds that "condescending". I would prefer to have this conversation with people who are ACTUALLY doing the work rather than have some vague association, hence my e-mail and trolling for a discussion on the DSR forum.
The proof is in the pudding, when they win the 25 they'll have the undisputable honor of having achieved it. If you can put someone on who can discuss this intelligently I'd appreciate it. Hopefully someone from West will respond to me on the DSR forum where Mark and other racers post so I can get some useful and accurate information on an interesting project.
Incidentally, I asked if anyone here was racing in the 25 hour and your answer was "no".
Though I did post on the DSR forum (which has received a deafening silence from West) and sent an e-mail to West because I'm interested in this program (and others) and am highly dubious about your ability to tell the whole unexagerrated truth in a post (waiting for my $600 set of tires that can do 30 heat cycles and my $3k hayabusa that will run for years ROTFLMAO) or discuss the technical aspects intelligently (based on your innacurate ranting about Stohr with Mark a while back). It's an interesting subject that you aren't qualified to intelligently discuss. If Mark or Randy want to hop on and talk about it, I'd love to hear from them because they could probably provide useful content rather than some vague assertions.
What is the motor, what is the drive? Who built the motor? What sort of brakes does it use? Did the heim-jointed delicate suspension get replaced with bushed robust suspension? Where did they put the fuell cell? Do you know how much fuel that car uses in 1.5 hours? How was the fuel cell (which would have to be around 13 gallons) 100% contained inside the chassis that's only designed to hold 5? They would have had to significantly widen the chassis/frame rails to enclose the cell and that would be an interesting modification I or Mark would love to hear about. How did they weatherproof the car? How much current do the lights + cooling fans draw? I know exactly how much current a motorcycle alternator puts out and how much the consumables consume and there's a problem that simply adding a battery wouldn't solve with 11+ volts of JUST headlights (forget the tail lights, ignition and fans) so I'd like to know how they got around that.
I have no doubt whatsoever about Randy Pobsts ability as a driver or experience to be able to handle any sort of race car he's in but you can drop his name all day but what you are talking about is a car that's never raced, a type of car that's never been in a single enduro, a team that's never been in a single enduro and taking on a 25 hour race (probably in bad weather) with 50+ sedans and you figure you guys pretty much have the whole thing worked out because of the driver lineup? Note the car that won last year (with Randy as one of the drivers) was a Porsche not a sports racer and there are some pretty sound reasons for that.
How about a list of all the enduros or enduro championships West/Stohr have won? Do you know how many professional racing drivers and teams compete in the 25 hour? We have three pro drivers in our freaking E2 Civic! If you expect us to be awed because a completely untested car with a team with exactly ZERO experience in this race (or endurance racing chain-driven motorcycle-engine sports racers) and then you are exactly associated how? You introduced some drivers? you need to re-read the definition of "condescending". I wish them all the luck in the world because it's a great idea and would be a stupendous accomplishment. If they haven't even done one single enduro in the car and they don't even know for sure if they're going to do it a mere 2 months out, that's a program with a lower chance of success than some of the other cars I've heard about people building for that class.
And somehow answering Mark's questions and expounding on other aspects of car setup for NASA enduros is condescending is it Mike? You, have never driven, built, maintained, supported or owned an endurance-racing chain-driven motorcycle-engine race car. You lecturing Mark Dalen on Stohrs a while back pretty much set the mood for this thread. Your "facts" were simply blathering bull**** and exagerration demonstrating a lack of hands-on knowledge or experience to have a legitimate frame of refrence to discuss technical aspects. How much racing did you do in your motorcycle-engined, chain-driven sports racer in that period? Oh none? You don't own one?, you are always an expert by association not by participation right? As I thought, you were incapible about answering the questions Mark asked and simply made vague assertions. Since this isn't F1, I highly doubt there is any "secret" information because you wouldn't have mentioned it if it was "secret".
How about the number of enduros Radical cars have won in the US vs. Stohrs (you have no idea of even a ballpark number do you). I'm not a representative for Radical, don't care much about that company but your continual ranting about them is assanine. Lee Stohr dominated DSR again this year (clubbing West's cars like baby seals and there wasn't even a single Radical entered in DSR)) and in CSR Radical was the highest placed non-Atlantic car (2nd) ahead of every single Stohr. How do you reconcile those FACTS with your blathering? Those are the facts. Stohr cars (of any sort) have never won a single enduro anywhere in the US. This makes them unproven in this arena.
I won two consecutive NASA endurance racing championships out west here with my Radical primarly because few others wanted to show up and race their (even more) delicate cars...McGee motorsports did the same in the SCCA enduros out here in a nearly identical car to mine. Adam Zimmerman was winning enduros on the East Coast up to when he was killed in his Radical. A Radical SR3 won the ESR class at the 25 hour last year (but couldn't match the reliability + pace of the Porsches that have won that race every year it was held). They and I are the only teams/drivers in the united states to win endurance championships in motorcycle powered sports racers and that (gasp) MIGHT give me a LEEEEEETLE bit of insight that someone on the "Sidelines" like yourself doesn't have. I won the 12 hour in my Civic, we taught the owner of PDQ motorsports all about endurance racing (he was on our crew for several years) and he won the 25 hour in class and was 7th overall in a car that was 2nd from the lowest class, what is YOUR experience entering and competing in this race Mike? I've DONE IT and though I'm no Randy Pobst, I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do so unless you can actually ANSWER a question rather than just saying "yes it has headlights" or speaking for other people who conveniently don't post here, why don't you go back into your cave?
Tough ****ing **** if you or anyone you are associated finds that "condescending". I would prefer to have this conversation with people who are ACTUALLY doing the work rather than have some vague association, hence my e-mail and trolling for a discussion on the DSR forum.
The proof is in the pudding, when they win the 25 they'll have the undisputable honor of having achieved it. If you can put someone on who can discuss this intelligently I'd appreciate it. Hopefully someone from West will respond to me on the DSR forum where Mark and other racers post so I can get some useful and accurate information on an interesting project.
Incidentally, I asked if anyone here was racing in the 25 hour and your answer was "no".
10-17-2005, 11:33 AM
#33
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there's also a basic durability question...
if you total the hours of track time (lets say 23 hours running) and divide that by 30 minute sessions, that's 43 sessions or the equivalent of 14.3 SCCA race days (practice + qualifying + race) without really being able to work on the car.
the wear and tear is exponential and it's the little stuff (like fatigue in the A-arms) that tends to do in the car.
It's why people do it, it's freaking hard. We found that it was literally 4 times harder to win the 25 hour than the 12 hour (which was a relative walk in the park) with a sedan! By "we" i mean the car I owned and raced and the sister team I race with and their car.
the wear and tear is exponential and it's the little stuff (like fatigue in the A-arms) that tends to do in the car.
It's why people do it, it's freaking hard. We found that it was literally 4 times harder to win the 25 hour than the 12 hour (which was a relative walk in the park) with a sedan! By "we" i mean the car I owned and raced and the sister team I race with and their car.
10-17-2005, 12:41 PM
#34
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hmm...once again...
you are wrong. Perhaps if you raced in these cars and were part of the community you'd have something better than vague and wildly innacurate claims about Stohrs at track days.
2005 Runoffs:
DSR there were no Radicals this year so if by "obliterate" you mean they were simply obsolete and didn't show...well I guess. Lee Stohr's cars certainly did obliterate all of West's cars.
CSR, Radical finished 2nd ahead of all the Stohrs (after having been run off the track in turn 1 and having to drive through virtually the whole field). West cars were 3rd 4th (not as fast as the SR3 that was 2nd). True that Rennie got bumped off but results are what happened not what might have happened or could happen.
Stohr/West cars won 0 enduros in the US last year, Radical won at least 8 that I know of (two of which I was the driver and car owner in).
Also, why do you call West cars Stohrs? They are the WR 1000, WR unlimited and WR renegade and don't market the Stohr name (and it's omitting this kind of basic information which makes me believe you are so full of ****). Those two cars are not the same and Lee Stohr Cars and West Cars do not sell the same cars. Are you saying West specially designed an enduro car? Then it's not a Stohr at all is it. Lee Storh was the genius behind that and the development of his idea is clearly not being matched by West's version of the old car (in fact, they were "obliterated" by Stohr).
Lee Stohr makes the coolest and most modern sports racers around and they're vastly superior cars to Radical in design if not always speed and are far more successful in SCCA sprint racing. Stohr and West has no endurance racing credential or experience or success but if Randy Pobst and Mark White believe they can win overall their first time out...more power to them. I'll remain skeptical until I see the results because the car the team and the crew as more important than the drivers over 25 hours. It wouldn't be the drivers that let them down, it would be a delicate car and an inexperienced crew and then the risk of being taken out by heavy and sloppily driven cars that weigh 3 or 4 times as much but given your VAST experience with this kind of racing, you already know that. FYI only one sports racer finished ahead of our PDQ 125hp Civic last year (which was 7th overall) and that was the ESR class winning RADICAL. That's how poorly sports racers do in these long races (other than Radicals).
And I'm telling you flat out, I don't believe you are "Randy Pobst's Agent". If you made an introduction or something that's being a good buddy but plenty of people here know Randy and that's the sort of claim that's pretty easily checked so I hope that's true and his sister is no longer his agent because you took over that job.
2005 Runoffs:
DSR there were no Radicals this year so if by "obliterate" you mean they were simply obsolete and didn't show...well I guess. Lee Stohr's cars certainly did obliterate all of West's cars.
CSR, Radical finished 2nd ahead of all the Stohrs (after having been run off the track in turn 1 and having to drive through virtually the whole field). West cars were 3rd 4th (not as fast as the SR3 that was 2nd). True that Rennie got bumped off but results are what happened not what might have happened or could happen.
Stohr/West cars won 0 enduros in the US last year, Radical won at least 8 that I know of (two of which I was the driver and car owner in).
Also, why do you call West cars Stohrs? They are the WR 1000, WR unlimited and WR renegade and don't market the Stohr name (and it's omitting this kind of basic information which makes me believe you are so full of ****). Those two cars are not the same and Lee Stohr Cars and West Cars do not sell the same cars. Are you saying West specially designed an enduro car? Then it's not a Stohr at all is it. Lee Storh was the genius behind that and the development of his idea is clearly not being matched by West's version of the old car (in fact, they were "obliterated" by Stohr).
Lee Stohr makes the coolest and most modern sports racers around and they're vastly superior cars to Radical in design if not always speed and are far more successful in SCCA sprint racing. Stohr and West has no endurance racing credential or experience or success but if Randy Pobst and Mark White believe they can win overall their first time out...more power to them. I'll remain skeptical until I see the results because the car the team and the crew as more important than the drivers over 25 hours. It wouldn't be the drivers that let them down, it would be a delicate car and an inexperienced crew and then the risk of being taken out by heavy and sloppily driven cars that weigh 3 or 4 times as much but given your VAST experience with this kind of racing, you already know that. FYI only one sports racer finished ahead of our PDQ 125hp Civic last year (which was 7th overall) and that was the ESR class winning RADICAL. That's how poorly sports racers do in these long races (other than Radicals).
And I'm telling you flat out, I don't believe you are "Randy Pobst's Agent". If you made an introduction or something that's being a good buddy but plenty of people here know Randy and that's the sort of claim that's pretty easily checked so I hope that's true and his sister is no longer his agent because you took over that job.
10-17-2005, 01:31 PM
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Yup
Kind of hard to imagine a car built for 30 minute sprint races doing well for 25 hours. Of course, they could be doing a complete new design for enduro racing.
Now why does a pro driver need an agent to cut a deal for an amateur race against a bunch of us hacks?
Now why does a pro driver need an agent to cut a deal for an amateur race against a bunch of us hacks?
10-17-2005, 01:44 PM
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gawd Mark I dunno...
I was hoping that maybe John/TSR and Steve S and some other folks would be doing the race so I could go say hi.
I hope that A-mac makes it up there, with a Mazda motor and no chain and 20 gallon tank and the cream of the west coast DSR drivers, that would be a good race. The A-mac guys spent an hour picking my brain about that car but WTF do I know about enduros? **** that reminds me I have to send them a driver resume.
Guess we have the same old problem here, those who do and those who don't but feel like they do because they know people who do.
Hey, I don't seem to have a current e-mail addy for you, can you send me an e-mail? I want to talk about your Stohr. My e-mail addy is available at my DSR forum profile if you don't have it.
I hope that A-mac makes it up there, with a Mazda motor and no chain and 20 gallon tank and the cream of the west coast DSR drivers, that would be a good race. The A-mac guys spent an hour picking my brain about that car but WTF do I know about enduros? **** that reminds me I have to send them a driver resume.
Guess we have the same old problem here, those who do and those who don't but feel like they do because they know people who do.
Hey, I don't seem to have a current e-mail addy for you, can you send me an e-mail? I want to talk about your Stohr. My e-mail addy is available at my DSR forum profile if you don't have it.