Frustrated - some perspective, please...cam adjusters -- sorry, long post
03-05-2009, 01:41 PM
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Frustrated - some perspective, please...cam adjusters -- sorry, long post
Okay, I'm trying to think methodically here because I feel annoyed. I have a 2001 AR. 40,000 miles. I am the second owner, and I purchased the car in February 2008.
The car is currently being serviced at Roger Beasley Audi in Austin, Texas...leaking cam adjuster gaskets are one of the things being addressed. I've been aware of that issue since early last year, but the leak wasn't too bad and at least two other indies confirmed that.
Anyway, recently I finally had enough money to get this serviced, and after shopping around prices and reading reviews/reputations of all the shops in Austin, I took it back to Roger Beasley (even though I was surprised that so many enthusiasts in my area actually like the dealer). Many folks on this very forum seem to think that Beasley has the best service.
After a week of being in the shop (not only for cam adjuster gaskets, but also control arms and some brake work), the service department tells me that for three days, they have been flummoxed because, after doing the cam adjuster gaskets, when they put everything back together, the car was throwing a code and the engine was knocking. They couldn't figure out why. Again, they've been trying for three days to figure out what's up. So the tech apparently starts double-checking his work, takes the cam off again, checks the timing, checks oil pressure, etc. In the same conversation, the service rep says that when the tech double-checked everything, "the cam adjusters seemed fine." But then in practically the next breath, the rep changes his mind and says, "it looks like someone was already in there in the past, and it looks like your cam adjusters were already damaged, and the timing on your car was already off."
Huh? My car's timing was already off?! So this is where I start feeling really pissed off. Here's why:
I know for a fact that the same auto broker from whom I purchased the car took the car to the very same Roger Beasley Audi in December 2007, only two months before I purchased the car. And I know that because shortly after I purchased the car from that broker in February 2008, I took it to Roger Beasley and a service technician said, "oh, yeah, we know this car...it was just here." And he produced from the Beasley service department's own files a handwritten list of all the items that they believed needed to be serviced...which includes the leaking cam adjuster gaskets currently in question.
But the point is that at that time, Roger Beasley otherwise gave the car a thorough inspection (that's how they came up with the handwritten list of service items), and there was nothing in there that indicated any concern with the car's timing.
Furthermore, while I was shopping around to try to find a good indie or other mechanic in Austin, I had the same car inspected by *two other indies* -- on three separate occasions -- who basically found the same issues that Beasley had originally found, and again, *no one* had any concerns about the car's timing or anything else about the cams.
In addition, I've driven the car for a year, and I've never once heard the car knock, nor have I ever had so much as a "check engine" light come on....not *once.* In fact, other than the leaking oil, the car has driven just fine.
So Roger Beasley has seen the car twice, two other indies have seen the car, I've driven the car for a year without issue, without knocking, without check engine lights, and now, all of a sudden, after Beasley was in there, they say, "the cams were already damaged, and the timing was off."
I just got off the phone with their service rep, and the first potential "accommodation" that he floated is to charge me three hours of labor, instead of the nine hours their techs have spent being flummoxed, to go ahead and change the timing belt and get everything adjusted as it should be. He says that with three hours of labor, parts (including water pump), the additional work is $1100!
At that amount, I pointed out to him that precisely because I've been thinking about service, I've been reading about what others pay for their service here on the audiworld forum, and even under the *best* circumstances -- not all screwy, with so-called discounts, like the present circumstances -- others get their timing belt and water pump changed for at little as $750. (FWIW, by the way, Beasley's original quote for the timing belt and water pump -- which I didn't take, by the way -- was $1900.)
Anyway, I feel like I am being jerked around. I suspect that something happened to the cam adjusters on this visit only, and not before. And all of my efforts to research mechanics and try to be smart about preserving funds has been for naught.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do...the service rep was insistent that I go look at the damaged cam adjuster, but I told him it's irrelevant...even if the damage is real, that doesn't change the fact that it's likely that it just happened, on their watch...otherwise, the FOUR previous inspections of the car would have turned up something wrong with the car's timing. Right?
All feedback and recommendations would be much appreciated. Thanks for letting me vent.
The car is currently being serviced at Roger Beasley Audi in Austin, Texas...leaking cam adjuster gaskets are one of the things being addressed. I've been aware of that issue since early last year, but the leak wasn't too bad and at least two other indies confirmed that.
Anyway, recently I finally had enough money to get this serviced, and after shopping around prices and reading reviews/reputations of all the shops in Austin, I took it back to Roger Beasley (even though I was surprised that so many enthusiasts in my area actually like the dealer). Many folks on this very forum seem to think that Beasley has the best service.
After a week of being in the shop (not only for cam adjuster gaskets, but also control arms and some brake work), the service department tells me that for three days, they have been flummoxed because, after doing the cam adjuster gaskets, when they put everything back together, the car was throwing a code and the engine was knocking. They couldn't figure out why. Again, they've been trying for three days to figure out what's up. So the tech apparently starts double-checking his work, takes the cam off again, checks the timing, checks oil pressure, etc. In the same conversation, the service rep says that when the tech double-checked everything, "the cam adjusters seemed fine." But then in practically the next breath, the rep changes his mind and says, "it looks like someone was already in there in the past, and it looks like your cam adjusters were already damaged, and the timing on your car was already off."
Huh? My car's timing was already off?! So this is where I start feeling really pissed off. Here's why:
I know for a fact that the same auto broker from whom I purchased the car took the car to the very same Roger Beasley Audi in December 2007, only two months before I purchased the car. And I know that because shortly after I purchased the car from that broker in February 2008, I took it to Roger Beasley and a service technician said, "oh, yeah, we know this car...it was just here." And he produced from the Beasley service department's own files a handwritten list of all the items that they believed needed to be serviced...which includes the leaking cam adjuster gaskets currently in question.
But the point is that at that time, Roger Beasley otherwise gave the car a thorough inspection (that's how they came up with the handwritten list of service items), and there was nothing in there that indicated any concern with the car's timing.
Furthermore, while I was shopping around to try to find a good indie or other mechanic in Austin, I had the same car inspected by *two other indies* -- on three separate occasions -- who basically found the same issues that Beasley had originally found, and again, *no one* had any concerns about the car's timing or anything else about the cams.
In addition, I've driven the car for a year, and I've never once heard the car knock, nor have I ever had so much as a "check engine" light come on....not *once.* In fact, other than the leaking oil, the car has driven just fine.
So Roger Beasley has seen the car twice, two other indies have seen the car, I've driven the car for a year without issue, without knocking, without check engine lights, and now, all of a sudden, after Beasley was in there, they say, "the cams were already damaged, and the timing was off."
I just got off the phone with their service rep, and the first potential "accommodation" that he floated is to charge me three hours of labor, instead of the nine hours their techs have spent being flummoxed, to go ahead and change the timing belt and get everything adjusted as it should be. He says that with three hours of labor, parts (including water pump), the additional work is $1100!
At that amount, I pointed out to him that precisely because I've been thinking about service, I've been reading about what others pay for their service here on the audiworld forum, and even under the *best* circumstances -- not all screwy, with so-called discounts, like the present circumstances -- others get their timing belt and water pump changed for at little as $750. (FWIW, by the way, Beasley's original quote for the timing belt and water pump -- which I didn't take, by the way -- was $1900.)
Anyway, I feel like I am being jerked around. I suspect that something happened to the cam adjusters on this visit only, and not before. And all of my efforts to research mechanics and try to be smart about preserving funds has been for naught.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do...the service rep was insistent that I go look at the damaged cam adjuster, but I told him it's irrelevant...even if the damage is real, that doesn't change the fact that it's likely that it just happened, on their watch...otherwise, the FOUR previous inspections of the car would have turned up something wrong with the car's timing. Right?
All feedback and recommendations would be much appreciated. Thanks for letting me vent.
03-05-2009, 01:53 PM
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... breathe deeply
...all the service history that has been performed by an Audi dealer will be in the computer under VIN number - so Beasley's original inspection and/or recommendations should already be logged ... so no debating who said what when ... as for cost of timing belt and water pump, I was just quoted $2400 yesterday by University Park Audi in Dallas ... if it wasn't knocking when you came in - keep after them on that - stay calm - and keep the facts on the table - good luck!
03-05-2009, 01:53 PM
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Can you email this same story to a principal at the shop? It is..
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/119851/img_1588.jpg"></center><p>
very well stated. They seem entirely responsible.
FWIW, my timing belt, water pump, adjusters, T-stat cost close to $1600 last week.
very well stated. They seem entirely responsible.
FWIW, my timing belt, water pump, adjusters, T-stat cost close to $1600 last week.
03-05-2009, 02:14 PM
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IMHO.. you have a good stand:
The car worked fine before I brought it in.
It had a leak and services and you tended to them.
When my car is working the way it was when I gave it to you, the job is done and its done at the price I agree on when I first gave you the car.
It had a leak and services and you tended to them.
When my car is working the way it was when I gave it to you, the job is done and its done at the price I agree on when I first gave you the car.
03-05-2009, 02:34 PM
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Cam adjusters shouldn't cause knock at idle unless they are stuck in the activated position.
Cam adjusters (aka cam chain tensioners) advance the timing so normally they should just sit there and do nothing as the car idles normally. I think this is an Audi gimmick. I took my allroad in (for an alignment) and the service tech told me that my cam adjusters were bad and both needed replaced because the engine was making noise. I think he's full of crap and I will investigate when I get around to taking off my valve cover.
03-05-2009, 04:00 PM
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You will not necessarily see anything when you look at the tensioner. One of the jobs
of the tensioner as well as adjusting the timing of the inlet cam is keeping the chain tight. Noise from a tensioner is not uncommon & does warrant replacement.
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03-05-2009, 04:08 PM
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What was the code? You need to get the code from them. I suspect it was a cam timing code
& they put it back together with the cam a tooth or two off & the noise was coming from the valves contacting the pistons.
Timing belt with all rollers,tensioners,water pump, camshaft seals cam plugs, valve cover gaskets & chain tensioner gaskets would cost $1850.00 at my shop.
A shop is only as good as it's worst mechanic. That is why I do everything myself.
Timing belt with all rollers,tensioners,water pump, camshaft seals cam plugs, valve cover gaskets & chain tensioner gaskets would cost $1850.00 at my shop.
A shop is only as good as it's worst mechanic. That is why I do everything myself.
03-05-2009, 04:37 PM
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often you will get a rattle from a failing chain tensioner on start up. lasts a few seconds &
Then gone . It will get worse & is hard on the sprockets. This is also a good way to describe the noise from the valves hitting the pistons. I had a tdi come in the other day that was very noisy & it's cam was a tooth off & valves were hitting the pistons. luckily no damage was done.