Allroad suspension - Arnott bags, Bilstein shocks
07-02-2014, 10:00 PM
#151
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Arnott is merely sending you the money back. Not replacing the Bilstein shocks.
You remove the failed Bilstein shocks from your car, yank them out of the Gen1 airbag, send them back, they mail you a check.
I went through this a couple of months ago. Had to put the old OEM shock back on with the Arnott bag. Good thing I saved it.
You remove the failed Bilstein shocks from your car, yank them out of the Gen1 airbag, send them back, they mail you a check.
I went through this a couple of months ago. Had to put the old OEM shock back on with the Arnott bag. Good thing I saved it.
07-07-2014, 12:15 AM
#152
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About rubber sleeves.
It is a profitable business here (in Russia). Our guys to use german sleeves from Contitech or turkish sleeves from Airtech. They use blank from sleeves 90 mm diameter and manual round press.
I'm sure that you can find more interesting business solution in US from Firestone or other domestic companies.
07-21-2014, 04:33 AM
#153
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romario could you explain the rear shock modification that you had posted here:
http://www.audi-club.ru/forum/showth...27#post5422627
I can not quite understand the translation
Thanks
http://www.audi-club.ru/forum/showth...27#post5422627
I can not quite understand the translation
Thanks
01-27-2015, 08:00 AM
#154
AudiWorld Senior Member
Excellent Holmes!! Some solid evidence at last on what these Arnotts chaps are up to. Jolly good what!!
So this tells us why Arnotts are so reluctant to reveal any details about the damping rates of their shocks. They've just plucked some Bilsteins off the shelf and hope they'll do the job. If the fronts are intended for an A4 - unless they're intended for a V6 A4 - then they would be designed for something with a whole lot less weight than the engine in the front of the allroad.
These shocks clearly need revalving. But the question is to what specs?
This is similar to the time I installed Bilsteins first in my A4. I had ordered a set of grooved Bilsteins which have a number of grooves machined into the lower body of the shock for the spring perch so you can adjust the ride height within quite wide limits. This side of things worked perfectly, but they had forgotten to pay any attention to the damping rates. Out of the box, the shocks were completely under-damped - much worse than the factory "Sport" shocks whose only problem was that they gave MUCH too high a ride height. You might expect "Sports" suspension to be lower than normal, but this thing sat up like a Toyota Landcruiser.
Long story short - I took the new shocks for a run and the back was pitching and bucking like a drunken sailor while the front used to bottom out, crunching the bottom of the sump, on the mildest of bumps on the highway. It was completely unsafe and possibly illegal, so I had them taken out and valved properly (at Bilstein's cost). When reinstalled, the rears were fine but the fronts were far too stiff on compression having almost no give at all, then on rebound totally soft so she would hit a bump and the nose would pitch up in the air with theupward stroke being largely uncontrolled.
Another couple of revalvings and front compression is almost right while rebound is too soft only on low velocity bumps (ie undulations in the road surface, or a ramp between road repairs). I can live with it because it's OK 95 per cent of the time and the hassle of taking the car off the road and waiting 1-2 weeks before I can reinstall their latest leap of faith is scarcely worth it.
Interestingly, Bilstein don't know what the spring rates of the Eibachs are, so they're guessing about damper rates too. (EDIT: sorry - I've recounted my wartime reminiscences before [perhaps several times]. This is one of the benefits of growing older - you never need to think up new stories...)
If they know so little about the A4 - which has been raced in Europe for over a decade - how much less will they know about damping rates for the allroad with its linear spring rate, variable depending on ride height?
What's the next step Volker?
So this tells us why Arnotts are so reluctant to reveal any details about the damping rates of their shocks. They've just plucked some Bilsteins off the shelf and hope they'll do the job. If the fronts are intended for an A4 - unless they're intended for a V6 A4 - then they would be designed for something with a whole lot less weight than the engine in the front of the allroad.
These shocks clearly need revalving. But the question is to what specs?
This is similar to the time I installed Bilsteins first in my A4. I had ordered a set of grooved Bilsteins which have a number of grooves machined into the lower body of the shock for the spring perch so you can adjust the ride height within quite wide limits. This side of things worked perfectly, but they had forgotten to pay any attention to the damping rates. Out of the box, the shocks were completely under-damped - much worse than the factory "Sport" shocks whose only problem was that they gave MUCH too high a ride height. You might expect "Sports" suspension to be lower than normal, but this thing sat up like a Toyota Landcruiser.
Long story short - I took the new shocks for a run and the back was pitching and bucking like a drunken sailor while the front used to bottom out, crunching the bottom of the sump, on the mildest of bumps on the highway. It was completely unsafe and possibly illegal, so I had them taken out and valved properly (at Bilstein's cost). When reinstalled, the rears were fine but the fronts were far too stiff on compression having almost no give at all, then on rebound totally soft so she would hit a bump and the nose would pitch up in the air with theupward stroke being largely uncontrolled.
Another couple of revalvings and front compression is almost right while rebound is too soft only on low velocity bumps (ie undulations in the road surface, or a ramp between road repairs). I can live with it because it's OK 95 per cent of the time and the hassle of taking the car off the road and waiting 1-2 weeks before I can reinstall their latest leap of faith is scarcely worth it.
Interestingly, Bilstein don't know what the spring rates of the Eibachs are, so they're guessing about damper rates too. (EDIT: sorry - I've recounted my wartime reminiscences before [perhaps several times]. This is one of the benefits of growing older - you never need to think up new stories...)
If they know so little about the A4 - which has been raced in Europe for over a decade - how much less will they know about damping rates for the allroad with its linear spring rate, variable depending on ride height?
What's the next step Volker?
So they take the stance "here's the product we designed. If it works for you, great. If not, okay too." We are the lunatic fringe here, and from a business standpoint, we represent a *very* small market. Most of the people that purchase Arnott products, I would guess, are indie mechanics, who are saving their customers 50% off Audi OEM. Most of those customers won't notice the difference from worn out OEM to new Gen II.
That's just how it is.
01-27-2015, 08:15 AM
#156
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yes, that is how it is. Just is a strange approach: developing (well, that might be a too strong word; more like "grab something we make and slam something off the shelf (the Bilstein shock) on and if it somehow, works we sell it").
A spring/shock manufacturer who does not KNOW the spring rate or damening factors they sell?
They obviously can sell anything they want. And obviously, the buyer can like or not like it. That is NOT the point.
The point is that you would expect from a manufacturer that he KNOWS his product's technical specifications.
They do NOT.
The rest is documented. Nothing wrong with their product if you like it.
Just don't ask Arnott any specifics about their product. They simply don't know. And from talking to the one Bilstein engineer I was lucky to get on the phone, he at least knew what HIS product does (just could not comment on recommendation how to valve it to work with the Arnott spring, since Arnott (see above) does not KNOW their spring rate (of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 springs).
A spring/shock manufacturer who does not KNOW the spring rate or damening factors they sell?
They obviously can sell anything they want. And obviously, the buyer can like or not like it. That is NOT the point.
The point is that you would expect from a manufacturer that he KNOWS his product's technical specifications.
They do NOT.
The rest is documented. Nothing wrong with their product if you like it.
Just don't ask Arnott any specifics about their product. They simply don't know. And from talking to the one Bilstein engineer I was lucky to get on the phone, he at least knew what HIS product does (just could not comment on recommendation how to valve it to work with the Arnott spring, since Arnott (see above) does not KNOW their spring rate (of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 springs).
01-27-2015, 08:21 AM
#157
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
No real update, just posting status:
My 2002 AR is now coming out of hiatus (engine swapped in, rebuild tranny back in; engine has misfires on cyl 3, after eliminating any other possibilities, leaves 'lazy lifters' as the only viable problem source; hope to address (cam out) in the 4 weeks). Once running, I will tackle suspensions (control arms, tie rods), including putting the modified Koni in the front. See if the 'Russian mod' helps to provide the AR with Gen 2 a decent ride.
If not: coil overs (NOT Arnott, they are only an 'air replacement', not an upgrade). The need for a good suspension will be magnified as soon as the engine runs properly and is tuned. Just a shame I did not upgrade the rods while the engine was sitting on a stand forever; now limited to what the stock rods can handle (under 600 HP for sure, may need to detune at low rpm since my turbos are fully spooled up at 3k; no way the rods will hold for example 25 psi boost at 3k rpm).
My 2002 AR is now coming out of hiatus (engine swapped in, rebuild tranny back in; engine has misfires on cyl 3, after eliminating any other possibilities, leaves 'lazy lifters' as the only viable problem source; hope to address (cam out) in the 4 weeks). Once running, I will tackle suspensions (control arms, tie rods), including putting the modified Koni in the front. See if the 'Russian mod' helps to provide the AR with Gen 2 a decent ride.
If not: coil overs (NOT Arnott, they are only an 'air replacement', not an upgrade). The need for a good suspension will be magnified as soon as the engine runs properly and is tuned. Just a shame I did not upgrade the rods while the engine was sitting on a stand forever; now limited to what the stock rods can handle (under 600 HP for sure, may need to detune at low rpm since my turbos are fully spooled up at 3k; no way the rods will hold for example 25 psi boost at 3k rpm).
01-27-2015, 08:26 AM
#158
AudiWorld Senior Member
Thread Starter
Nothing beats blowing the doors off a 911 with a Thule box on the roof and a boat trailer in tow!
01-27-2015, 08:35 AM
#159
AudiWorld Senior Member
A clarification...I'm not sticking my nose in here to defend Arnott. 
I bought an '04 allroad 2.7t tip a month a go. 120K miles, SoCal car, needs some TLC. Front bags are leaking. My indy mechanic is replacing them with Gen 1 Arnott bags. The rear may be original, not sure.
Everything else is stock, for now. Hotchkis bars will be installed soon. Lighter wheels (OZ SL) will be on shortly.
This car will be my DD, albeit with some interesting upgrades. Brakes, S6 sport interior, alcantara headliner, etc.
The allroad replaced a nicely sorted '99 A6 avant. Stock springs, Bilstein shocks, Hotchkis bars. Handled very well...for a fat wagon, and wasn't overly stiff. I'm looking forward to the additional power of the 2.7t.
I have another car for autocross/track use (a slightly built B5 A4 avant).
So I'm just starting down the slippery slope of suspension modifications. Looking to keep stock ride height and adjustability, may use the car to tow at some point.
I bought an '04 allroad 2.7t tip a month a go. 120K miles, SoCal car, needs some TLC. Front bags are leaking. My indy mechanic is replacing them with Gen 1 Arnott bags. The rear may be original, not sure.
Everything else is stock, for now. Hotchkis bars will be installed soon. Lighter wheels (OZ SL) will be on shortly.
This car will be my DD, albeit with some interesting upgrades. Brakes, S6 sport interior, alcantara headliner, etc.
The allroad replaced a nicely sorted '99 A6 avant. Stock springs, Bilstein shocks, Hotchkis bars. Handled very well...for a fat wagon, and wasn't overly stiff. I'm looking forward to the additional power of the 2.7t.
I have another car for autocross/track use (a slightly built B5 A4 avant).
So I'm just starting down the slippery slope of suspension modifications. Looking to keep stock ride height and adjustability, may use the car to tow at some point.
Last edited by urs6_ma; 01-27-2015 at 08:54 AM.
01-27-2015, 09:15 AM
#160
AudiWorld Senior Member
Yes, that is how it is. Just is a strange approach: developing (well, that might be a too strong word; more like "grab something we make and slam something off the shelf (the Bilstein shock) on and if it somehow, works we sell it").
A spring/shock manufacturer who does not KNOW the spring rate or damping factors they sell?
A spring/shock manufacturer who does not KNOW the spring rate or damping factors they sell?
I work for a company that, in part, manufactures complex technical equipment. As an employee and a shareholder, I would not want our engineers taking time to talk with every person that calls or emails. If senior people from larger customers want to have a dialog with our engineering organization, the purpose is defined and the process is carefully choreographed so that the customer gets what he needs.
Arnott, as both manufacturer and distributor, has chosen to limit the conversations with end customers. I wouldn't assume that they don't know...they have a pretty good footprint in the air suspension aftermarket, and they didn't get there by grabbing products ***** nilly off Amazon. Somebody there knows what you're looking for...they just aren't motivated (or perhaps allowed) to tell you.
Simple business decision. You and I may not like that decision, and the Audi community is pretty darn good at reverse engineering some things (Ross Tech for instance)... Me, I'm going to use the feedback of other forum members and build the best suspension I can with Arnott's (and Hotchkis' and others) off the shelf parts...
