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Excellent feedback. A big part of looking at the kicker stuff was to help manage the cost a bit more. That Dayton woofer at $50 each is very appealing if the performance is there. I don't know this stuff we'll enough to look at the specs and know if it'll be a good fit or not. Sounds like you think that's a great option. So that's good enough for me.
No drama, no harshness, excellent details. They were released last summer and generally get excellent reviews. Defintely a step up from their GF180 that I used in my rear door. I wouldn't use them without a subwoofer though. If you drive them full range they may bottom out so I generally don't suggest them for most car audio applications.
With that would you use the 8 or 10 uF cap for the filter in the rear door? And is 80uF still appropriate for the front dash corner full ranges?
10uF in this case with that SIG-180
What are you running in the dash coners and what's your desired crossover frequency?
I think I saw the adapters for the rear door are SAVW651. That and the other ones that look similar seem to not be available where I've looked. But crutchfield says they are 1.511" tall (so 38.2mm). Is that the correct fitment? I assume I need to put some foam on the back between that and the door panel? And what about a foam ring between the front of the woofer and the door card? Is the door mount 4 fasteners at 90 degrees on an 8.5" bolt circle?
In the rear door you have a lot of space. My adapters about about 0.5" tall and the woofer is 3.2" deep and fits just fine. You can come forward more than 2" from the metal if you need to. Lots of space in there.
The front door is even more so. The original B&O woofer is 4" thick, half in front and half in back.
Then what about the front adapters? I thought I saw something that made it sound like 52mm height would be the target. Same fastener arrangement (4 even spaced @ 8.5")?
52mm would be fine
Then I saw you link to sonic barrier in another thread somewhere. It doesn't show as available right now at parts express. Any other recommendations for that while I'm in there?
I noticed that as well. I've tried killmat and Noico but neither of them worked as well as Dynmat Extreme or Sonic barrier.
I saw a handful that have that shape. I was wondering if there would be depth/space for it with how much the dome sticks out. And do you know if the diameter of that will fit inside the retainer tabs on the door card? I was also a little concerned about how large of a diameter they are overall.
You have tons of space. Seriously no worries there on both sides.
Then with the Dayton 180 woofer. Is that one that will fit inside the silicone baffle? I thought I saw someone else posting about a 180 not fitting.
I'm not sure. I'm not using the silicone baffles in my car because I used the factory horn which protects the driver from water. If someone mentioned it they were probably using the GF180 because the SIG180 is very new but hte SIG180 is slightly deeper than the GF180. You really only need something on top to keep water from dripping on it so cutting the back out of the baffle would be fine.
No. That tweeter has a huge hump at 1Khz and isn't flat until above 2500. It's best to have stability for at least one octave above and below your crossover point, especially when using a 1st order crossover like you are.
No drama, no harshness, excellent details. They were released last summer and generally get excellent reviews. Defintely a step up from their GF180 that I used in my rear door. I wouldn't use them without a subwoofer though. If you drive them full range they may bottom out so I generally don't suggest them for most car audio applications.
10uF in this case with that SIG-180
What are you running in the dash coners and what's your desired crossover frequency?
In the rear door you have a lot of space. My adapters about about 0.5" tall and the woofer is 3.2" deep and fits just fine. You can come forward more than 2" from the metal if you need to. Lots of space in there.
The front door is even more so. The original B&O woofer is 4" thick, half in front and half in back.
52mm would be fine
I noticed that as well. I've tried killmat and Noico but neither of them worked as well as Dynmat Extreme or Sonic barrier.
Originally Posted by Bobby Kinstle
You have tons of space. Seriously no worries there on both sides.
I'm not sure. I'm not using the silicone baffles in my car because I used the factory horn which protects the driver from water. If someone mentioned it they were probably using the GF180 because the SIG180 is very new but hte SIG180 is slightly deeper than the GF180. You really only need something on top to keep water from dripping on it so cutting the back out of the baffle would be fine.
No. That tweeter has a huge hump at 1Khz and isn't flat until above 2500. It's best to have stability for at least one octave above and below your crossover point, especially when using a 1st order crossover like you are.
You said you wouldn't use the SIG180 without a subwoofer on the low end. Is the way the factory HU sending signals adequate for this since there is a factory sub?
For the crossover between the SIG180 and the Peerless XT25 would it be better to go with a higher capacitance? I thought you said the SIG180 starts a sharp rolloff at 3kHz. Isn't 10uF closer to 4kHz? I tried looking for a chart that shows what that filter looks like, but they all show different values.
As far as the front crossover point, I'm open to recommendations there.
For driver placement in the doors, isn't it recommended to get the drivers as close to the door card openings as possible? That's why I was asking about how tall I should make the spacers.
Are there any other sources you know of for the sonic barrier, or will I have to find dynamat somewhere?
Are the connectors for the 3 dash drivers the same connector as the rear door tweeters?
You said you wouldn't use the SIG180 without a subwoofer on the low end. Is the way the factory HU sending signals adequate for this since there is a factory sub?
If you try to play very deep bass on them at high volume they will exceed their mechanical limits pretty early. However I'm assuming that the A$$ system since it has a subwoofer probably blocks the deepest bass from the front door speakers just like the B&O does. The A$$ also blocks deep bass from the rear door speakers pretty aggressively.
For the crossover between the SIG180 and the Peerless XT25 would it be better to go with a higher capacitance? I thought you said the SIG180 starts a sharp roll off at 3kHz. Isn't 10uF closer to 4kHz? I tried looking for a chart that shows what that filter looks like, but they all show different values.
*pulls up chair* This is going to get deeper than you probably wanted but I can't really answer your question any other way..
The "crossover point" in any filter is the point where the signal is 3dB down from the average line. When you set a filter to 4Khz, the actual output response will be 3db down at 4khz. The same will be true for the other driver. That way you don't get a constructive hump in the middle and keep a flat response (exception: 2nd order butterworth still has a hump). So since we are using the natural roll off of the woofer to be our crossover the -3dB point is actually closer to 3500 Hz. The woofer's natural slope is about 15dB/octave which is quite steep. Adding a cap to the tweeter is only 6dB per octave so it's going to be a tad constructive with the woofer in the crossover region, hence the gap. Honestly you could probably go to 5k and hardly notice the difference. If you really wanted to do it right you'd use a 3rd order crossover (18dB slope) on the tweeter wired in reverse polarity and add a single inductor 0.22mH to the woofer to steepen it's slope to 18dB for a near perfect match except for a very narrow -2dB blip at 10khz caused by the woofer's cone breakup. (the inductor isn't 6db reduction as you would expect because the SIG180 has rising impedance in this region and without a zobel to stabilize the impedance the inductor will be less effective than expected). I doubt you want to build all that in your car door though. If you do, this is what you'll get.
For driver placement in the doors, isn't it recommended to get the drivers as close to the door card openings as possible? That's why I was asking about how tall I should make the spacers.
Car audio is so far away from being able to follow the "best practices" of driver placement that you really don't need to try. Just make sure it lets the windows roll all the way down and doesn't hit the inside of the door plastic cover. Beware the pocket in the plastic for the woofers tapers smaller as it moves away from the metal, so if you project the speaker too far forward you might not be able to fit it in there. For best results drop the speaker driver inside the door card and see if it can even go all the way to the grill. I had to remove some structural ribbing to make the Aurum Cantus AC180 fit in mine.
That peerless nipple tweeter has excellent dispersion and sounds great even in extreme off axis conditions common in car audio. I'd just use a dremel to cut the factory tweeters out of the frame and glue the peerless tweeters right into the same place. That's what I did on mine with the ND25 bare element tweeters. Then you can just change the capacitor and use the factory plug like this.
Are there any other sources you know of for the sonic barrier, or will I have to find dynamat somewhere?
Not that I can see. I suspect it may have been a parts express brand.
Are the connectors for the 3 dash drivers the same connector as the rear door tweeters?
I don't know, I disabled these locations in my car. Since you don't have 3d effect B&O, why not just put the same peerless tweeter in that location? Is that the front tweeter location in the A$$ cars? If so, you really wouldn't want to put the faital pro full range here because it'll fight with the door woofer in the midrange, and it's a mediocre tweeter.
Last edited by Bobby Kinstle; 04-07-2024 at 09:42 PM.
Reason: Speling erors
If you try to play very deep bass on them at high volume they will exceed their mechanical limits pretty early. However I'm assuming that the A$$ system since it has a subwoofer probably blocks the deepest bass from the front door speakers just like the B&O does. The A$$ also blocks deep bass from the rear door speakers pretty aggressively.
That is kinda what I'm assuming as well.
*pulls up chair* This is going to get deeper than you probably wanted but I can't really answer your question any other way..
The "crossover point" in any filter is the point where the signal is 3dB down from the average line. When you set a filter to 4Khz, the actual output response will be 3db down at 4khz. The same will be true for the other driver. That way you don't get a constructive hump in the middle and keep a flat response (exception: 2nd order butterworth still has a hump). So since we are using the natural roll off of the woofer to be our crossover the -3dB point is actually closer to 3500 Hz. The woofer's natural slope is about 15dB/octave which is quite steep. Adding a cap to the tweeter is only 6dB per octave so it's going to be a tad constructive with the woofer in the crossover region, hence the gap. Honestly you could probably go to 5k and hardly notice the difference. If you really wanted to do it right you'd use a 3rd order crossover (18dB slope) on the tweeter wired in reverse polarity and add a single inductor 0.22mH to the woofer to steepen it's slope to 18dB for a near perfect match except for a very narrow -2dB blip at 10khz caused by the woofer's cone breakup. (the inductor isn't 6db reduction as you would expect because the SIG180 has rising impedance in this region and without a zobel to stabilize the impedance the inductor will be less effective than expected). I doubt you want to build all that in your car door though. If you do, this is what you'll get.
Yup. That's a lot to take in. Sounds kinda fun to play with, but probably overkill for this, and I'd rather not have my doors pulled apart long enough to tinker with all that. Sounds like a 10 or 12 uF cap would do it then. Would you still go 10 with these xover points?
Car audio is so far away from being able to follow the "best practices" of driver placement that you really don't need to try. Just make sure it lets the windows roll all the way down and doesn't hit the inside of the door plastic cover. Beware the pocket in the plastic for the woofers tapers smaller as it moves away from the metal, so if you project the speaker too far forward you might not be able to fit it in there. For best results drop the speaker driver inside the door card and see if it can even go all the way to the grill. I had to remove some structural ribbing to make the Aurum Cantus AC180 fit in mine.
Alright. So measuring and tinkering with the depths sounds like my only good option make sure I get a good fit as it sounds driver specific.
That peerless nipple tweeter has excellent dispersion and sounds great even in extreme off axis conditions common in car audio. I'd just use a dremel to cut the factory tweeters out of the frame and glue the peerless tweeters right into the same place. That's what I did on mine with the ND25 bare element tweeters. Then you can just change the capacitor and use the factory plug like this.
Cool. I'll have to take a look at that too then.
Not that I can see. I suspect it may have been a parts express brand.
Sounds like my option then is dynamat. PE has a bunch of different packages and options here. Do you have a recommended one?
I don't know, I disabled these locations in my car. Since you don't have 3d effect B&O, why not just put the same peerless tweeter in that location? Is that the front tweeter location in the A$$ cars? If so, you really wouldn't want to put the faital pro full range here because it'll fight with the door woofer in the midrange, and it's a mediocre tweeter.
We don't have a mid in the door. Which I think is why Bruce went full range on all 3 of those instead of tweeters. Move most of the detail up from the bottom of the front door to the dash. As far as why those drivers specifically, I think it was just a matter of what he could fit in the dash. I'm not saying there aren't other options or better, just that was what everyone seems to be using. If you have some other recommendations to look at for there I'd be open to exploring them. I think I have a few TC9 sitting around from some other projects. I remember seeing somewhere Bruce said he needed to use the neodymium FaitalPRO drivers because the ferrite ones wouldn't fit.
I started reading up on the sub options. I'm not thrilled with losing that cubby space, but it seems like the only good option. Did you ever measure the volume of the factory trunk box? I'm wondering if I can do something there maybe to get a larger volume. The Basserbox seems to be difficult to find in stock and get shipped here. The couple places I did see it are all $300+. That seems like too much for what it does for me.
Yup. That's a lot to take in. Sounds kinda fun to play with, but probably overkill for this, and I'd rather not have my doors pulled apart long enough to tinker with all that. Sounds like a 10 or 12 uF cap would do it then. Would you still go 10 with these xover points?
You could do 10uF and if the highs sound too hot then go to an 8uF. 12 is the wrong direction. I switched mine from 10 to 8 because the ND25 is too strong at 4khz but I can't say how that will be on the peerless nipple tweeter
Sounds like my option then is dynamat. PE has a bunch of different packages and options here. Do you have a recommended one?
I'd get at least 10 sq ft of Dynamat Extreme and apply liberally to the doors (both inner and outer metal and under your woofer), under the back seat and in the trunk. Don't put much on the trunk lid because it makes it too heavy for the springs to open it. If you car has a rear parcel shelf behind the back seat put some there too. Our cars are already pretty quiet so I don't think you'll need to use the foam products.
We don't have a mid in the door. Which I think is why Bruce went full range on all 3 of those instead of tweeters. Move most of the detail up from the bottom of the front door to the dash. As far as why those drivers specifically, I think it was just a matter of what he could fit in the dash. I'm not saying there aren't other options or better, just that was what everyone seems to be using.
Honestly if you want a flat response I'd use a proper tweeter in there. Otherwise you'll get either a overwhelmingly bright midrange response or have to cross the faital like a tweeter which is not it's strength.
If you have some other recommendations to look at for there I'd be open to exploring them. I think I have a few TC9 sitting around from some other projects. I remember seeing somewhere Bruce said he needed to use the neodymium FaitalPRO drivers because the ferrite ones wouldn't fit.
The Peerless TC9? It's efficiency is very low. Not a great fit for your other drivers.
I started reading up on the sub options. I'm not thrilled with losing that cubby space, but it seems like the only good option. Did you ever measure the volume of the factory trunk box? I'm wondering if I can do something there maybe to get a larger volume. The Basserbox seems to be difficult to find in stock and get shipped here. The couple places I did see it are all $300+. That seems like too much for what it does for me.
The A$$ subwoofer is a single channel 2 ohm sub right? This is a great box that's not too huge, plays really deep and is efficient enough to be driven by the factory amp. It's available in 2 or 4 ohm single voice coil https://www.kicker.com/50TCWC102
Could consider an under seat powered sub as well. Some of those have DSP to let them get unnaturally deep bass from sub a small sub. https://www.kicker.com/hideaway-hs10
You could do 10uF and if the highs sound too hot then go to an 8uF. 12 is the wrong direction. I switched mine from 10 to 8 because the ND25 is too strong at 4khz but I can't say how that will be on the peerless nipple tweeter
ok. I'll get some 10uF and some 8uF then to play with.
I'd get at least 10 sq ft of Dynamat Extreme and apply liberally to the doors (both inner and outer metal and under your woofer), under the back seat and in the trunk. Don't put much on the trunk lid because it makes it too heavy for the springs to open it. If you car has a rear parcel shelf behind the back seat put some there too. Our cars are already pretty quiet so I don't think you'll need to use the foam products.
I'll look at their offerings and see what works. I have the sportback. So there is no metal parcel shelf, and no way I'd want to try and do anything in the trunk lid. Is there value in trying to do any of the metal in by the spare tire? Or is that too little benefit?
Honestly if you want a flat response I'd use a proper tweeter in there. Otherwise you'll get either a overwhelmingly bright midrange response or have to cross the faital like a tweeter which is not it's strength.
You think it's fine leaving most of the mid range down at the door woofers? Then I'm assuming you'd suggest just using the same nipple tweeter you'd recommended for the rear doors? And then the same xover point too. That leaves the center one left to figure out. I think there was a reason they do a full range there, but I don't remember exactly why. That's a 4". So there are probably some good options to pair there?
The Peerless TC9? It's efficiency is very low. Not a great fit for your other drivers.
I figured there's a good reason to not use those here. I just have a few leftover from other projects.
The A$$ subwoofer is a single channel 2 ohm sub right? This is a great box that's not too huge, plays really deep and is efficient enough to be driven by the factory amp. It's available in 2 or 4 ohm single voice coil https://www.kicker.com/50TCWC102
Could consider an under seat powered sub as well. Some of those have DSP to let them get unnaturally deep bass from sub a small sub. https://www.kicker.com/hideaway-hs10
Yup. Factory as I understand it is a single channel 2ohm. I'll have to see where I could fit that box. I'll probably revisit this a bit later. The cost of the sub is looking like nearly as much as the rest of the system.
I'll look at their offerings and see what works. I have the sportback. So there is no metal parcel shelf, and no way I'd want to try and do anything in the trunk lid. Is there value in trying to do any of the metal in by the spare tire? Or is that too little benefit?
Spare tire well was worth doing on my car. It's not well damped and for you it's able to emit noise in the passenger compartment directly. If you are bored there's a simple test you can do to decide if you need to add material or not. Find a metal surface and wrap on lightly it with your finger knuckles. If it makes a metallic sound, slap some dynamat on it. If it makes a dull thud, skip it and move on. You'll also want to put it between the speaker and the mount to isolate the driver from the panel it's mounted in which will make it sound cleaner and tighter.
You think it's fine leaving most of the mid range down at the door woofers? Then I'm assuming you'd suggest just using the same nipple tweeter you'd recommended for the rear doors? And then the same xover point too.
Yes because the SIG-180 woofer doesn't really have any issues with beaming. See the chart below, even at 45 degrees off axis (blue line) the woofer is sending nearly all of it's energy fully wide dispersion all the way up to 3khz.
"Beaming" is a tendency of all speaker drivers to concentrate the sound energy forward as frequency increases until it's like a sound laser just the diameter of the cone. As diameter increases, the frequency beaming starts happening decreases. That's a big reason why there are so many 1" tweeters out there. Because that's the largest size that can get to 20khz without appreciable beaming problems. Beaming is a secondary characteristic of drivers that influences crossover choices. The shape of the driver can influence beaming making it better or worse. Home audio the listeners are rarely more than 20 degree off axis but car audio ferociously breaks the beaming conventions by placing drivers in whatever spaces they have at wildly different distances from any particular lister's ears. This is also why you shouldn't waste effort on things like time alignment in car audio.
That leaves the center one left to figure out. I think there was a reason they do a full range there, but I don't remember exactly why. That's a 4". So there are probably some good options to pair there?
In the B&O the center mid and center tweeters are actually different channels. However changing that tweeter made no difference I could hear and I suspect the center channel doesn't contain information above 10Khz (and likely not much above 4khz) in my car. Can't say on the A$$ version though, but if it's anything like the Dolby spec for center channels, nearly all the information is going to be 200-8khz at best so a full range driver might be fine here. Does your car have a center tweeter? If so unplug it and see if you can hear a difference.
I figured there's a good reason to not use those here. I just have a few leftover from other projects.
I'm curious if I may ask, what sorts of other speaker projects? I'm always curious to see speaker projects.
Yup. Factory as I understand it is a single channel 2ohm. I'll have to see where I could fit that box. I'll probably revisit this a bit later. The cost of the sub is looking like nearly as much as the rest of the system.
That was my own experience as well. My sub plus amp was more than 50% of the cost of the project even with those expensive Aurum Cantus woofers. If you'd like, I can pick some much more expensive hardware options to push the balance away from the subwoofer if you'd like.
Spare tire well was worth doing on my car. It's not well damped and for you it's able to emit noise in the passenger compartment directly. If you are bored there's a simple test you can do to decide if you need to add material or not. Find a metal surface and wrap on lightly it with your finger knuckles. If it makes a metallic sound, slap some dynamat on it. If it makes a dull thud, skip it and move on. You'll also want to put it between the speaker and the mount to isolate the driver from the panel it's mounted in which will make it sound cleaner and tighter.
Fair enough. I was thinking there would need to be some compressible foam between the speaker adapter and the door. Is the dynamat through that area a better solution?
Yes because the SIG-180 woofer doesn't really have any issues with beaming. See the chart below, even at 45 degrees off axis (blue line) the woofer is sending nearly all of it's energy fully wide dispersion all the way up to 3khz.
"Beaming" is a tendency of all speaker drivers to concentrate the sound energy forward as frequency increases until it's like a sound laser just the diameter of the cone. As diameter increases, the frequency beaming starts happening decreases. That's a big reason why there are so many 1" tweeters out there. Because that's the largest size that can get to 20khz without appreciable beaming problems. Beaming is a secondary characteristic of drivers that influences crossover choices. The shape of the driver can influence beaming making it better or worse. Home audio the listeners are rarely more than 20 degree off axis but car audio ferociously breaks the beaming conventions by placing drivers in whatever spaces they have at wildly different distances from any particular lister's ears. This is also why you shouldn't waste effort on things like time alignment in car audio.
Got it. So 4 of the SIG180 and 4 of the peerless XT25 should do it all well enough. Hopefully it's reasonable to fit that in there. Then a handful of 8uF and 10uF caps to tinker with.
In the B&O the center mid and center tweeters are actually different channels. However changing that tweeter made no difference I could hear and I suspect the center channel doesn't contain information above 10Khz (and likely not much above 4khz) in my car. Can't say on the A$$ version though, but if it's anything like the Dolby spec for center channels, nearly all the information is going to be 200-8khz at best so a full range driver might be fine here. Does your car have a center tweeter? If so unplug it and see if you can hear a difference.
Yup. The US spec cars start with the A$$ system. It's the European models that have an option below that, which don't have the center tweeter. I think that's where most of the nav gets directed through and some of that kind of stuff. It sounds absolutely awful in my car. It's an independent channel, so I think it makes sense to put a full range in there. Thoughts on my options for that?
The FaitalPRO 4FE32 obviously is the one Bruce uses with his kits.
Then looking at other 4" full range options I stumbled on this one. https://www.parts-express.com/LaVoce...-8-Ohm-293-711
I'm certainly open to other ideas.
I'm curious if I may ask, what sorts of other speaker projects? I'm always curious to see speaker projects.
I did a pair of wall mount panel speakers as a project with my godson one year for his Christmas present. It's like 3" thick or so. I forget the rest of the dimensions, but I'm sure you've probably seen that project before.
I forgot I had a spare pair of those to make another set with the other half sheet of MDF I had. So I ordered another pair of them. I needed something for my home office. So I put them in a small knockdown from PE. Drilled a small port hole in the back. Then I paired that with an iteration of the Voxel mini-sub using that Tang Band 5" woofer I think it was.
I also used TC9 to build into a setup for a racing sim rig. Used 4" PVC pipe to make the sealed chamber. I got some tactile bass shakers to wire in for it. It's not all done yet because time and priorities. But even without the bass shakers it's a reasonable little setup. Especially for the cost.
My HT setup is the wicked one. 🤣
That was my own experience as well. My sub plus amp was more than 50% of the cost of the project even with those expensive Aurum Cantus woofers. If you'd like, I can pick some much more expensive hardware options to push the balance away from the subwoofer if you'd like.
Nah. I like having options that are a good value. If I'm going to do anything overkill, it'll be in the HT.
So I was looking to find the impedance for the factory center channel. Bruce summed up the whole system in post #52.
Front door woofers 4ohm
Front dash tweeters 8ohm
Front center is a mid range 4ohm
Rear door woofers 4ohm
Rear door tweeter 4ohm
Subwoofer 2ohm
So that says I shouldn't use the peerless XT25 in the front as those are 4ohm tweeters and not 8ohm. So back to open suggestions there if you have something in mind that'll play nice. That also says that I should go with a full range vs a tweeter in the dash center.
04-05-2024, 01:13 PM
