Green Mountain Auto World Repair Scam
05-09-2007, 08:58 PM
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Green Mountain Auto World Repair Scam
<a href="http://www.greenmountainautoworld.com/" target="_blank">Green Mountain Auto World</a>
1987 Audi 4000CS Quattro
Not too long ago, I had a problem with my car, it was shutting off randomly and not starting back up afterwards:
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130246.phtml" target="_blank">Thread #1</a>
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130579.phtml" target="_blank">Thread #2</a>
I brought it in to this place and agreed for a $95 diagnosis of what was causing the problem I explained to them (as above).
They called back shortly and said something along the following:
There was a wire loose to the ECU coolant sensor inside the boot and that it was causing my engine to run rich at times and causing my motor to flood and then not be able to start. It sounded reasonable so I agreed to pay $90 to have it fixed along with $10 of gas they added. The total came to roughly $200.00 over all.
Meanwhile, I was speaking with AudiSport4000 and Katman about the sensors. From what I came to understand, the bottom sensor is for the ECU and the top is for the Coolant Level Gauge for the Dash.
Interesting to say the least.
The next day my car broke down, same symptoms and I brought it back in. The man at the service counter, Dick, seemed realistically un-suprised that it came back. The Girlfriend and I thought it was odd, but we blew it off and he said he'd give us a call later.
Later I got a call that it might be the fuel pump so I came in to talk about it more. I got a chance to go back and talk to the mechanic and inspected what he fixed before because I was getting curious. I also talked to Mark furthermore about what they fixed before, this was brief.
He pointed out that he fixed the top one and did some rewiring, replaced the terminals and I questioned him about if he knew where the ECU sensor was and the difference between the two.
He claimed that someone switched them, I said that's odd. I approached Mark about the same thing and he didn't have much to say on the matter.
He later got the car fixed, $99.00 (May 4th, 2007) for a fuel relay all in all. No more car problems. (Thank you) The owner, Mark, told me that I needed to keep atleast 10 gallons of gas in the gas tank because the fuel pump was running hot. I didn't understand this but didn't want more car problems so I did so.
I began to be more curious if they charged me $95 for a false diagnosis and $90 for a small wiring job on something that was needless, but more importantly I was curious if I was wronged with the $90 job.
I checked my car, and followed AudiSport4000's advice, yanked the top sensor wires and the gauge dropped. I was convinced they wronged me as the mechanic said it was only the top one he fixed.
I then went to a AUDI/PORSCHE dealership to speak with a Tech who told me the one with the clip on the bottom had to do with the ECU and the top had a lesser usage.
I went back later to ask for my money back for the job that was done previously done. I was talking to the owner at this time and he told me that "I put a lot of time and work into that car to figure out what was wrong "(2 hours) and he said that someone switched the coolant sensors basically.
I said that was impossible, I have photos that were posted before. He got the mechanic to explain to me what was wrong and I brought him to the car.
He was saying all this stuff I wasn't understanding that someone switched them, I repeatably told them I have pictures that show they weren't. Then he jumped to explaining that someone switched them and I don't think he understood what I was trying to explain to him.
Anyways, I explained the bottom was for the ECU and the top was for the Coolant Level Gauge. He yanked the bottom sensor while it ran and it was idling hard (and I told him again, that was the ECU sensor) and I told him to yank the top and watch the gauge drop. He finally listened to me and saw it drop. He basically had nothing further to say on the matter and said there must of been some mis-communication between the service rep, Dick and him, told me to talk to Dick Monday).
(At this point I'm thinking what miscommunication?)
I didn't get to the shop til Wednesday (May 9th, 2007) because of college finals. I talked to Dick and he said he'll have to talk to the owner about a refund and that I should bring the pictures (still went with the switched connectors excuse despite the mechanic acknowledgement of what happened previously). I came back was armed with the following, not only this page that showed when I posted the pictures and dated:
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130273.phtml" target="_blank">Page with Pictures + Dates</a>
and the following blown up picture of the coolant sensors:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Masisoar/Picture1.jpg">
**Mind you the picture I showed him was larger**
Basically it shows the sensors were not switched prior to me bringing them in and that they were accusing me of something that wasn't the case, as if it was my fault.
Moments later I was in the waiting room waiting for the owner. It was only a matter of seconds and he started becoming increasing aggressive (unprovoked mind you), and then immediately talked about how much time was spent finding out what was wrong (not long, I was there during a majority of the troubleshooting time frame) but basically he tried shoving a lot down my throat.
Mind you, also I was not yelling and he constantly cut me off and said to let him talk for a second - yelling, actually not talking.
And finally I explained my half and he kept interupting me. I explained to him the issue at hand and I want the $90 for something that had nothing to do with my issue and what they diagnosed. He became very un-interested to say the least, about what I had to say.
I asked him if he saw the pictures and said he didnt care for them and I explained to him, at this point, furious, that they had nothing to do with what they described and that NO ONE switched them.
Basically I came to the conclusion that his mechanic messed the job up and he's covering him and doesn't want to lose anymore money on what he's already had to pay his mechanic.
The last 5 minutes were just us yelling. Him incoherently talking about "if I was such an expert, I should of fixed it myself" but I told him I didn't know what was wrong so I took it to them to fix and then he was like "You should of took it to Audi if you cared so much, you probably would of payed more though" and I was like "yeah but I took it to you guys to fix".
He kicked my girlfriend and I out after yelling some more at both of us and me telling him people are going to know about this and that they can't run a legit business like this.
It was only $90 but mind you it was needlessly spent and I'm in college, I'm not financially stable yet and need every dime.
I later (furious) located the local Better Business Bureau, filled out a complaint form and requested to speak with a consultant.
The auto repair shop was part of the BBB.
I clearly gave them my case and explained to her (mind you she was a lady so I kept it simple with the diagnosis and it not having anything to do with what was fixed). I explained what they diagnosed and what they did and it was nothing to do with my problem with my car or the diagnosis.
She accepted the case as legit and worthy for pursuing, she especially didn't enjoy his agressiveness and yelling towards my girlfriend and I and neither did I.
Waiting for a call from her in the next day.
****************************************
<b> It's fairly sketchy it has to come to this over $90 but they never fixed what they claimed because there was, ultimately, nothing wrong with it and they fixed a coolant level sensor wiring issue rather than anything with the ECU. </b>
They shifted to saying they were switched (Um... no.)
<B>The owner didn't obviously seem to care what I had to say, only he saw he'd lose money.</b>
I understand he's a business owner but things like this, even if it is $90 isn't legit.
Accusing me of doing something I didn't after I showed them wrong and then getting in my face and justifying it with yelling and other comments on the work on the car.
Thoughts?
1987 Audi 4000CS Quattro
Not too long ago, I had a problem with my car, it was shutting off randomly and not starting back up afterwards:
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130246.phtml" target="_blank">Thread #1</a>
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130579.phtml" target="_blank">Thread #2</a>
I brought it in to this place and agreed for a $95 diagnosis of what was causing the problem I explained to them (as above).
They called back shortly and said something along the following:
There was a wire loose to the ECU coolant sensor inside the boot and that it was causing my engine to run rich at times and causing my motor to flood and then not be able to start. It sounded reasonable so I agreed to pay $90 to have it fixed along with $10 of gas they added. The total came to roughly $200.00 over all.
Meanwhile, I was speaking with AudiSport4000 and Katman about the sensors. From what I came to understand, the bottom sensor is for the ECU and the top is for the Coolant Level Gauge for the Dash.
Interesting to say the least.
The next day my car broke down, same symptoms and I brought it back in. The man at the service counter, Dick, seemed realistically un-suprised that it came back. The Girlfriend and I thought it was odd, but we blew it off and he said he'd give us a call later.
Later I got a call that it might be the fuel pump so I came in to talk about it more. I got a chance to go back and talk to the mechanic and inspected what he fixed before because I was getting curious. I also talked to Mark furthermore about what they fixed before, this was brief.
He pointed out that he fixed the top one and did some rewiring, replaced the terminals and I questioned him about if he knew where the ECU sensor was and the difference between the two.
He claimed that someone switched them, I said that's odd. I approached Mark about the same thing and he didn't have much to say on the matter.
He later got the car fixed, $99.00 (May 4th, 2007) for a fuel relay all in all. No more car problems. (Thank you) The owner, Mark, told me that I needed to keep atleast 10 gallons of gas in the gas tank because the fuel pump was running hot. I didn't understand this but didn't want more car problems so I did so.
I began to be more curious if they charged me $95 for a false diagnosis and $90 for a small wiring job on something that was needless, but more importantly I was curious if I was wronged with the $90 job.
I checked my car, and followed AudiSport4000's advice, yanked the top sensor wires and the gauge dropped. I was convinced they wronged me as the mechanic said it was only the top one he fixed.
I then went to a AUDI/PORSCHE dealership to speak with a Tech who told me the one with the clip on the bottom had to do with the ECU and the top had a lesser usage.
I went back later to ask for my money back for the job that was done previously done. I was talking to the owner at this time and he told me that "I put a lot of time and work into that car to figure out what was wrong "(2 hours) and he said that someone switched the coolant sensors basically.
I said that was impossible, I have photos that were posted before. He got the mechanic to explain to me what was wrong and I brought him to the car.
He was saying all this stuff I wasn't understanding that someone switched them, I repeatably told them I have pictures that show they weren't. Then he jumped to explaining that someone switched them and I don't think he understood what I was trying to explain to him.
Anyways, I explained the bottom was for the ECU and the top was for the Coolant Level Gauge. He yanked the bottom sensor while it ran and it was idling hard (and I told him again, that was the ECU sensor) and I told him to yank the top and watch the gauge drop. He finally listened to me and saw it drop. He basically had nothing further to say on the matter and said there must of been some mis-communication between the service rep, Dick and him, told me to talk to Dick Monday).
(At this point I'm thinking what miscommunication?)
I didn't get to the shop til Wednesday (May 9th, 2007) because of college finals. I talked to Dick and he said he'll have to talk to the owner about a refund and that I should bring the pictures (still went with the switched connectors excuse despite the mechanic acknowledgement of what happened previously). I came back was armed with the following, not only this page that showed when I posted the pictures and dated:
<a href="https://forums.audiworld.com/4000/msgs/130273.phtml" target="_blank">Page with Pictures + Dates</a>
and the following blown up picture of the coolant sensors:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Masisoar/Picture1.jpg">
**Mind you the picture I showed him was larger**
Basically it shows the sensors were not switched prior to me bringing them in and that they were accusing me of something that wasn't the case, as if it was my fault.
Moments later I was in the waiting room waiting for the owner. It was only a matter of seconds and he started becoming increasing aggressive (unprovoked mind you), and then immediately talked about how much time was spent finding out what was wrong (not long, I was there during a majority of the troubleshooting time frame) but basically he tried shoving a lot down my throat.
Mind you, also I was not yelling and he constantly cut me off and said to let him talk for a second - yelling, actually not talking.
And finally I explained my half and he kept interupting me. I explained to him the issue at hand and I want the $90 for something that had nothing to do with my issue and what they diagnosed. He became very un-interested to say the least, about what I had to say.
I asked him if he saw the pictures and said he didnt care for them and I explained to him, at this point, furious, that they had nothing to do with what they described and that NO ONE switched them.
Basically I came to the conclusion that his mechanic messed the job up and he's covering him and doesn't want to lose anymore money on what he's already had to pay his mechanic.
The last 5 minutes were just us yelling. Him incoherently talking about "if I was such an expert, I should of fixed it myself" but I told him I didn't know what was wrong so I took it to them to fix and then he was like "You should of took it to Audi if you cared so much, you probably would of payed more though" and I was like "yeah but I took it to you guys to fix".
He kicked my girlfriend and I out after yelling some more at both of us and me telling him people are going to know about this and that they can't run a legit business like this.
It was only $90 but mind you it was needlessly spent and I'm in college, I'm not financially stable yet and need every dime.
I later (furious) located the local Better Business Bureau, filled out a complaint form and requested to speak with a consultant.
The auto repair shop was part of the BBB.
I clearly gave them my case and explained to her (mind you she was a lady so I kept it simple with the diagnosis and it not having anything to do with what was fixed). I explained what they diagnosed and what they did and it was nothing to do with my problem with my car or the diagnosis.
She accepted the case as legit and worthy for pursuing, she especially didn't enjoy his agressiveness and yelling towards my girlfriend and I and neither did I.
Waiting for a call from her in the next day.
****************************************
<b> It's fairly sketchy it has to come to this over $90 but they never fixed what they claimed because there was, ultimately, nothing wrong with it and they fixed a coolant level sensor wiring issue rather than anything with the ECU. </b>
They shifted to saying they were switched (Um... no.)
<B>The owner didn't obviously seem to care what I had to say, only he saw he'd lose money.</b>
I understand he's a business owner but things like this, even if it is $90 isn't legit.
Accusing me of doing something I didn't after I showed them wrong and then getting in my face and justifying it with yelling and other comments on the work on the car.
Thoughts?
05-09-2007, 09:24 PM
#2
AudiWorld Senior Member
Suggestion....
IF you have to bring the car to a mechanic, find a place that specializes European cars, or even better, just VW-Audi. I know here in NJ there are at least 3 VW-Audi specialists within a 5-10min drive, a handful more of euro specialists and over a dozen within a 10 mile radius, although that might not be the case in CO.
A majority of 1980s euro cars ran some form of CIS, which unlike modern EFI has its own quirks and needs. Chances are someone who sees CIS powered cars day in and day out would have been able to resolve your problem correctly and quickly resulting in lower labor charges and a running car afterwards.
A majority of 1980s euro cars ran some form of CIS, which unlike modern EFI has its own quirks and needs. Chances are someone who sees CIS powered cars day in and day out would have been able to resolve your problem correctly and quickly resulting in lower labor charges and a running car afterwards.
05-09-2007, 10:15 PM
#3
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Re: Green Mountain Auto World Repair Scam
i understad the 90 bucks, being in college myself i know its hard and it sucks when money goes down the tubes like that.
no way to run a business if you yell at your customers. even if you're wrong admit the mistake and fix it. its likely that you'll keep more of those customers around...
no way to run a business if you yell at your customers. even if you're wrong admit the mistake and fix it. its likely that you'll keep more of those customers around...
05-10-2007, 04:41 AM
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Wow! What an ordeal.
You know as a mechanic you screw up at times, it happens. But I always take it on the chin and figure it's my fault I lost the time, not the customers. Plus, if I take care of my customer they'll come back and keep me in business for a long time.
I ran into a similar problem with the company that waterproofed my basement. The short story is that they screwed up the job and kept having to come back for the "30 yr warranty". Then out of the blue, they just said they weren't coming back anymore. I hired a lawyer and bagan pursuing it. During that process they went out of business (gee wonder why?) and the lawyer advised me taking it further would cost me more than I paid for the job or what it would cost to have it done right. I lose...
You're right to lodge a complaint with BBB. It worked for me when I had a warranty issue with my Acura. As soon as the dealer got a notice from BBB, they immediately agreed to fix the problem. If nothing else, it'll be on the books for others to see.
Thanks for the head's up and sorry to hear about your bad experience.
I ran into a similar problem with the company that waterproofed my basement. The short story is that they screwed up the job and kept having to come back for the "30 yr warranty". Then out of the blue, they just said they weren't coming back anymore. I hired a lawyer and bagan pursuing it. During that process they went out of business (gee wonder why?) and the lawyer advised me taking it further would cost me more than I paid for the job or what it would cost to have it done right. I lose...
You're right to lodge a complaint with BBB. It worked for me when I had a warranty issue with my Acura. As soon as the dealer got a notice from BBB, they immediately agreed to fix the problem. If nothing else, it'll be on the books for others to see.
Thanks for the head's up and sorry to hear about your bad experience.
05-10-2007, 06:25 AM
#6
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you def did the right thing and contacted the BBB...
they don't take kindly to owners of businesses or managers of that business yelling or accusing customers of things. I have a similar issue with Kramer Tire here in VA Beach (NEVER USE THEM! :-P) with my dad's TT. They installed tires for me that my dad bought from tirerack, and they damaged every wheel changing out the valve stems, then said there's no way they did the damage. I got in a rather heated discussion (not yelling) with the manager where he then accused me of who else I badgered about this (as if I was setting him up). I was pissed at that point and contacted the BBB.
They refunded me the $125 they charged to mount and balance the tires (highway robbery to begin with) and that was the end of it, but I will never go back there and swore to extend that to everyone I know.
Also, with that sensor, if they keep arguing that it got switched, you can show that a) the plugs are completely different and b) the threads are completely different for the sensors. The Gauge sensor is a smaller threaded bung than the coolant temp sensor for the ECU.
hope it all works out in the end for ya! I dont care if you're in college or doing well in the working world, there's no reason to give away $100 to someone, when in reality they were in the wrong.
They refunded me the $125 they charged to mount and balance the tires (highway robbery to begin with) and that was the end of it, but I will never go back there and swore to extend that to everyone I know.
Also, with that sensor, if they keep arguing that it got switched, you can show that a) the plugs are completely different and b) the threads are completely different for the sensors. The Gauge sensor is a smaller threaded bung than the coolant temp sensor for the ECU.
hope it all works out in the end for ya! I dont care if you're in college or doing well in the working world, there's no reason to give away $100 to someone, when in reality they were in the wrong.
05-10-2007, 06:59 AM
#7
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You could always make the case..
...that their initial $90 diagnosis was crap...if they had done that at all, they would have noticed that the fuel pump was outside the car and no matter how much fuel was in the tank, it wasn't going to cool the pump.
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05-10-2007, 08:51 AM
#8
AudiWorld Senior Member
Re: you def did the right thing and contacted the BBB...
It seems that the local tire places hate it when you drop off tires you bought elsewhere to be mounted. Although the mounting job the local tire place did on my one tire was fine (no rim damage), the price magically went from $15 to $40 because it was "a low profile tire", needless to say that place ain't getting my business again.
05-10-2007, 09:12 AM
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yeah, it took them 7 hrs to do the car...
one guy said they were swamped, the other said that because I didn't buy the tires from them, they'd push it off until they didn't have other "kramer tire" customers to tend to. The guy kept saying, "this is how Mr. Kramer wants it done" lol... pretty sure if I talked to the guy in person, he'd be pretty peeved. I know the guy I dealt with about the wheels in the end when I got my refund seemed kinda pissed when I told him the guy accused me of harassing/threatening people and how offended I was by it. that did the trick and he gave me my money back. I wans't overly upset at the wheels since the car was leased and going back, but if it were my A4, heads woulda rolled 
I now do my own tires onto the rims, so if I booger something up, it's my own fault.
I now do my own tires onto the rims, so if I booger something up, it's my own fault.
05-10-2007, 11:10 AM
#10
AudiWorld Senior Member
Re: yeah, it took them 7 hrs to do the car...
Not all of us have a tire mounting machine in our garages. Its something I wish I could safely do myself...