I'll probably be hung large for even typing in BMW BUT, has anyone driven the more affordable BMW 323 (versus 328) and if so, what do you think. It's around the same price as the A4 1.8T (maybe a bit more). I was just curious on any thoughts about the Bimmer. <p>Just of note, my heart is still with the A4 quattro irregardless !!!<p>T-MaN

I am a '97 1.8T owner who just for fun decided to check out BMW's new offering and test drove the 323 at a local dealer. To be honest, the car blew me away! Obviously the power transfer from a low pressure turbo four just can't compare with their in-line 6; the car's handling was faultless and on the whole it felt solidly constructed. BUT. . . I am not going to hand over the keys to my Audi that fast! Overall, lets look at the image of BMW owners (slick backed hair and lots of gold). . a far less sophisticated bunch than Audi owners, AND the price of the BMW doesn't even come close once you add all the necessary 'packages' that one would want (after all, no one wants to drive a 323 with wheelcovers and vinyl seats!!) So once I did the math, a desireable 323 is way more than a 1.8T could ever get. Let's face it, BMW was so scared of the 1.8T, they stopped importing 4 cylinder cars because they know they just can't compete!!

Dear Tom,<br>There are a number of factors to consider. Here in Albuquerque (5,000 feet) cars without boost make about 77% of their sealevel power. Here is 1.8 turbo makes more power than a V6--or a 323. Plus, the quatro is a big feature in some areas. I would also note that all but the most skilled drivers can probably go faster, safer in an A4 than in a 323, far less a 328. Both cars are great, and you can't make such a bad choice. But, as noted, when you add the desired options to a BMW the Audi seems like a great value. <br>Sincerely,<br>Joe Stephenson

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I did a post on this subject several days ago but cannot locate right now, so I'll try to answer your question so that you have benefit of my recent purchasing research.<br>First, the accolades: The 323i has a lot going for it. The 2.5 liter 6 is a superb engine, and with a stick only slightly slower than the larger engined 328i while being several thousand dollars less expensive. The Harmon Kardon stereo is a bargain at $675 (compared to the $1200 Bose in the A4) The 3 series is brand new and will keep its current model look for several years to come. Finally, it is one sweet machine and a superb handler. I have driven one on hilly twisties and found it to be very confidence inspiring. This is a car that is easy to drive very fast in my opinion.<br>But - I've chosen to go for an A4 1.8T. Why?<br>Because the attractively priced base 323i is definitely a "stripper" with 65 series tires and wheel covers. Upon pricing out what additions I wanted, I found that the A4 offers much more at a lower price.<br>Additions?<br>The cool 17" wheels seen on all of the 3 series ads - unavailable on the 323i. They are 328i only. If you want to get alloys for the 323i you'll need to pay $600 for some so so 16" wheels, or opt for a luxury package to get the 328i look in a less attractive 16" (stubby spokes). Or go for the sport package and get wheels that look like they belong on a Mugen Honda dragster.<br>By the way, the least expensive package is approx $2400 (sport) while a sport package on the A4 costs only $750. <br>Split folding rear seatbacks. Standard on the A4, almost $600 extra on the 323i.<br>Xenon lights! Yes, they are available for $500, but wait - on the less costly 323i you can only get them in combination with a package costing a minimum of approx $2400. This means that those xenons could end up costing you close to $3k on a 3 series! That is unless you were going to buy one of their expensive packages anyway.<br>Also, check out dealer markup. You can get beautiful A4's for 4-7% over invoice, while the best deal I could arrange on a 3 series was $2500 over invoice.<br>All in all, when I priced similary equipped machines and factored in the greater dealer take, the 323i was many thousands more expensive than the A4. <br>The A4 is a classic/timeless design, now that it has been "freshened" it'll continue looking great for years to come.<br>Don't forget the availability of quattro!<br>

..........there's no such word as "irregardless." It's always just "regardless."<p>Sorry, it's like fingers on a chalkboard when I see/hear that.<p>Rick :-)

BMW/ MB/ Volvo............all benchmarks in there categories.<br>nobody, but nobody uses Audi as a benchmark....maybe as<br>eye candy but not SUBSTANCE.<p>A4 and other Volkswagons make nice 'sacraficial lamb' vehicles to <br>prevent REAL CAR from winter/parking lot type damage.<p>if you want the immitated not the immitator get the BMW.

Used to own them, still want a 98 M3 4dr. before they trash this car as well. How about that new X model. Wooh that is not attractive(trying to remain kind here), Sorry guys, Audi has me now and the MB E55 looks more attractive than the newer M5 coming out soon. Now if Audi will do someting serious and get the A6 V8 over here to play...<p>98.5 A4QMS2.8 avant...<br>

Nobody is paying $2500 over invoice for E46. More like 5%.

<br>These days I'd rather have my dependable "soapbar" than my 94 325 that lived at the shop.<p>98.5 A4QMS2.8 Avant

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It is a shoe thing.

You cetainly picked a bad time to change to Audis. BMW is now a very dependable car unlike pre-1992. I, however, also liked the 95 and 96 540 better than the 99. For that matter, I prefer the 96 328 over the 99s. The 98 M3 sedan rocks. The 99 328i, however, still looks better than a station wagon.

The ONLY thing Audi has going for it is the AWD option on a German car<br>and you can thank lazy American drivers, low gas prices and the current SUV fad for that appeal.

Xenon is $500 on the 328i, but on the 323i you must also buy an equipment package.<br>You may be relying on web sites for your info, but they alas, are not complete.<br>Get one of the large 3 series brochures - in that it is very clear that you have to purchase the equipment package in order to get xenon on the 323i. It's another way of generating profits off of what appears to be an incredibly reasonable price on the base 323i.<br>I do agree with you that $500 should be added to the price of the Audi sport package for the sport seats as they are included in the BMW sport package and that is their option price on an A4.<br>Good catch!<br>Also, BMW has another little advantage that may appeal to some - European delivery @ 10% off! <br>This raises the question of why Audi isn't offering Euro delivery? The following manufacturers offer it: Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Saab, Volvo. If you purchase a car through such a program you can have the joy of picking up your car where it was manufactured, saving big bucks on a rental, and at 10% off the retail price! The only significant downside is that you'll have to wait several weeks/months for your car to be delivered to you in the US.<br>Audi?

I have to agree with MAXFX. I also looked at a 323i before ordering a 1.8TQ. While the car was very nice, it really could not compare value-wise to the Audi. At first glance, the cars seem comparable, as the invoice prices are only about $1000 different, but when I actually saw the BMW, I realized that BMW likes to make just about everything an option. Example: Oh, you want rear seats that fold? Option. An armrest? Option. Almost all of the good looking colors are metallic paints...you guessed it, an option. Plus, just little strange things that they have done to make the car "cheaper" than the 328, that seems like it would actually cost BMW more money. The rear seat reading lamps in the 323 I drove did not have switches to turn them on individually -- they only came on when the dome light was on, while all of the 328s had switches on them. This seems weird that they actually manufacture two different types of lights. Same thing with lights for the sun visors. Don't get me wrong, I think the new 3 series handle beautifully and the new interior design is light years ahead of last generation's (BMW is catching up to Audi in this respect). There was just no way I could option the cars similarly without about a three to four thousand dollar price difference. Plus, living in Colorado, I just decided that Quattro would be a smart buy. Anyway, hopes this helps you out.

I think they made the 323i cheesier than it's larger engined breatheren the 328 because it was intended to stand in as a replacement for the 318 which has been discontinued, likewise the 318ti. <p>Taken in that perspective one can see why they have squeezed the pennies so hard, they are giving you a hell of car for the money...when compared to what you would have paid for a 318. I never priced anything other than the 318ti so I'm not sure what the full size sedan cost...but I imagine wasn't too far off from the figure they are asking for the 323i. Tho I sorta doubt the 318 made something as simple as folding rear seats an option, any x or current 318 owners car to comment? I have a feeling BMW is not making much on the 323i, hence some seemingly common features are sorely laking..in an attempt to make back the balance. I too was reeled in by the low sticker...but was soon taken back to Audi by the realization that getting the features I would want on a 323i would have taken the car to about 34K...that car is simply not worth that kind of money...at least IMHO.

I also agree. The 323 is a great car, but with the options added on carries a considerably higher price than the A4 1.8. The Audi seems to be better value, though I suspect BMW has an edge in the quality of its dealers. An interesting question raised is when does Audi plan to offer European delivery. It's about time.

I tried out both, and found them both to be great handling cars in ideal conditions. I felt the 323 had the edge on performance, particularly in acceleration, but also somewhat on handling. However, with the options I wanted, it would have been about $5000 more for the BMW, not to mention more money to insure, year after year. Also, with Quattro (not available on the BMW), the A4 is going to perform much better in non-ideal conditions (rain or snow), even with the traction control on the rear-wheel drive BMW. So, I believe the A4 is a better value, but they're both great vehicles!<p>Incidentally, I think the A4 is noticably superior to the 318i, which is no longer sold in the U.S.

Check Build Your Own BMW at their website. It really is a stand alone option, but it's a really pointless argument because almost everybody is getting the great sport package.

<br>nt

Nicely equipped the Kia looks like a great value compared to the Audi A4 1.8T. I can get three Kia Sephias for the price of the A4 1.8T. I think the Kia has more rear passenger room than the Audi also. This is how silly your 323i vs. 1.8T comparison seems to me. <p>The A4 is totally out-classed by the BMW 323i. A more realistic comparison is the 323i vs A4 2.8L V6. Both have six cylinder engines and the exact same 7.1 second 0-60 acceleration times. Both are nicely equipped for $30K. I would get the 323i because its a new model that doesn't look outdated like the A4, has a longer warranty, indash CD, and Xenon lights. Its got the Roundel too.

I have a 98.5 1.8TQMS Wett and absolutely love it! But, as far as driving, I would pick a 3 series BMW anyday. It is much more sporty, much sharper response, and much more a drivers car. The A4 is a bit soft and numb by comparison. Go take a test drive of a new 328i and you'll see what I mean. I bought my A4 because it fit my budget and I fell in love with it. I do not regret buying it for one second.<p>Love my A4!!!<br>Ian

This is a pretty fine distinction considering that most people on the Internet can't differentiate between "your" and "you're"; "there", "their" and "they're"; "its" and "it's"; etc. If you're (not your) going to be the grammar police the you really have your (not you're) work cut out for you :-).<p> Doug G

:-)<p>In one of Dave Barry's old "Ask Mr. Language-Person" columns, he ran this little piece (paraphrased due to memory limitations):<p>Q: What is the proper usage of the word "irregardless"?<p>A: The word "irregardless" is used as to provide extra emphasis to a statement. Here is an example:<p>INCORRECT -- "Webster gonna bust your head."<br>CORRECT -- "Webster gonna bust your head, irregardless."<p><br>:-D<p><br>-vik<br>1.8tqms (8 weeks away, irregardless of this discussion)<p>

I saw the new Volvo S40 and V40 at an autoshow recently. They look very nice! The turbo engine (165hp 170lb) is slightly bigger than the 1.8T. This could be a more closer competitor to the A4's

On page 56 there is a footnote #2 next to the 323i showing that it is an option.<br>Look at what #2 under the footnotes says: "Available only in combination with foglights or sport package"<br>I checked the price on foglights and found a retail of $260, so it is possible to get them for less than the almost $3k I'd said before.<br>Still - not a stand alone option for $500.<br>You've made good points Abe - thanks for keeping me totally honest! I really like the 323i and don't want to misrepresent it.

I like the new Volvo S40's, however, I've read a couple articles, and the S40 seems to be positioned a "rung or two" below the A4, 3-series, and C-Class. Seems like more of a competitor for the VW Jetta or Passat. Of course, I don't know the prices for the S40 exactly, but I heard around $20,000. I think. Dont quote me on that one. But I dunno, it seems like a worthy competitor for the A4. I mean, turbocharged four banger, stylish, practical, etc, etc. I think it's a worthy competitor. Too bad no 5 or six cylinder...<p>-andrewt

Not what he sez inside the post, but BMW DID pioneer the sport sedan, not Audi, Mercedes, or anyone else. The 2002 is a classic. Everyone copied BMW, including Audi...<br>-andrewt

I looked at and drove both cars this fall before deciding on the Audi. The BMW handles better, has more rear seat legroom, and a longer warranty (but doesn't cover scheduled maintenance). Also, the 2.5 litre inline six is a better engine, unless you plan on chipping the car, and then the 1.8t is one of the most tuneable engines out there. So, why did I go with the Audi? I enjoyed it more. When I want to be pampered a bit, the Audi looks and feels more like a luxury car. It is more comfortable on city streets with potholes and other unpleasentness. Also, when I feel like driving more aggressively, which is usually, it's right there with me. I love the way Quattro feels in the corners when I'm really pushing the limits. Also, I prefer the ergonomics.<p>In the end only you can choose the car that is right for you. Drive them both, price them out with the options you would want, and work the dealers over. In my area, Audis are in much shorter supply than BMW's, as a result the price difference was a nonissue...the 323 would have been less than $200 more comparably equipped.<p>Regards,<br>Rodney<p>'99 silver A4 1.8tqms

although I've never driven it, everything I've read about it (including Consumer Reports) sez the new 3's softer than the old one. And it looks the part too. Although its marginally bigger than the old one, it looks FAT. The E36 looked like a lean, mean, driving machine. The E46 looks (and from what I hear) drives like a more luxurious car. Maybe some people think that's better, but some think that's worse. You can't catch all the fish in a pond, right?<p>-andrewt

I guess that really messed up my "editor" image! :-)<p>Rick

<br>(nt)