I'm bringing this here from the S4 forum b/c it became off topic. I am interested in people's opinions and thoughts on this matter. This got heated in the S4 forum, but I present it here as a legitimate ethical debate. There should be no need for mudslinging.

The backgound, for non-S4 readers: Audi's Nav systems is available with 11 CD's with data covering different regions of the US & Canada. The CDs cost $180 each, and you only get 1 with your car. You can buy other regions if you wish. Many CD's have incomplete data, and my dealer claims that updates will also cost $180.

My feeling is that these prices are outrageous, especially for the updates. I suggested a data sharing arrangement where we all copy each other's CDs.

Some people were strongly against it, called it "software piracy" and called me a "thief," and stated that it is simply wrong, no questions asked. Others felt that the prices were outrageous, and that overcharging a captive audience is also theft.

I submit that while both wrong to some degree, the degree is situation specific, and is only as wrong as theft when taken to the respective extreme. In fact neither is actually theft.

Overcharging a captive audience is called "monopolistic behavior."

Copying software, "software priacy" is not theft, because theft, or rather larceny, is "the removal of personal property with the intent to permanently deprive the owner." In short, it requires loss. Copying software or data does not directly result in loss to anyone, and it only indirectly results in loss in case-specific scenarios.

Copying data, which as an action I don't believe even has a name, may well be even less wrong - perhaps not even illegal. You may well implicitly agree to a contract when you open a data cd, but I'm aware of no evidence that copying data is in any way illegal.

Actually, I'm not sure if copying software is even illegal. Does anyone know for sure? It's possible that the only thing that makes copying data/software illegal is the fact that you usually have agreed to a license by the time you have access to the media. Signing the license contractually obligates you to the vendor's terms, but that doesn't make braking those terms illegal.

Lets say person A and person B write a contract that says they won't call each other a jerk, and agree to a $50 fine for each infaction. If A then call B a jerk, B can sue for the $50, and it will most likely hold up in court. Does this mean A has commited a crime? I don't know - any lawyers out there?

I find this an interesting dilemma - I hope others are interested too. Let's just keep it clean.

<ul><li><a href="http://www.nopiracy.com/index.html?/swandlaw_c.html">Software Piracy and U.S. Law</a></li></ul>

Cable companies send "content" to households and you cannot legally use this without paying.

TV Satellite companies beam "content" through the air and you cannot legally use this content without paying.

You're recourse as a consumer is to avoid buying the vendor's product because it is too expensive.

You have options - there are other vendors of Nav Systems and you can choose to do business with companies that offer you better terms.

Wether or not it is illegal, it seems crazy for Audi to charge $180 for the CDs and $180 for the updates, if that is true. I know the outrageous prices does not make it right to "steal".

Has anybody downloaded MP3's from the web? This is also supposed to be illegal, but they seem to get around it by stating that you are aonly allowed to keep the downloaded MP3 on your computer for 24 hours. So it seems that as long as you olny use the CD for less than 24 hours (which should get you beyond the distance of that CD), maybe its legal.

All this aside, my personal view is that I would have no problem getting the copied CDs and using them (well beyond the 24 hr limit). $180 is just too much! But I don't need to justify it by the high price for CDs, or the $$$ for the Nav system, if there is an oppurtunity to save some cash, and nobody else gets hurt, then WHY NOT??

-T

Early adopters of new technology always pay a premium to be among the first to use the technology. I'm not saying that $180 per CD is fair, but perhaps it is this price that will allow Audi to continue to offer the Nav system until they refine it and reduce the prices eventually. They need to pay for their R&D somehow, why not in the finished product?

Not harming anyone? If Audi decides that the Nav system isn't worth the effort because they aren't selling CD's as they had hoped, they may scrap the product. That hurts the consumers who may want that feature from Audi. But, if Audi doesn't make money on it, then they may drop it.

Just because someone isn't bleeding, doesn't mean there's no harm done. Also, don't let the ease of copying CDs sway you into believing that no harm is being done. Legally, the material on the CD is intellectual property that is being stolen when you copy and exchange the CDs.

This works the same for music, videos, books, etc. It is the only means an artist, programmer, writer, or whoever has to protect themselves. Otherwise, everyone would just copy stuff and resell it for cheaper.

I don't think charging $180 is monopolistic behavior. Having the extra CDs is not a requirement for the car to function properly. It's more of a luxury. If people want to pay $180 for it, then they're going to charge $180.

It's sort of ironic, because a big reason software is so expensive in the first place is because of piracy. They need to charge more to less people, because of millions lost in sales.

But frankly, it doesn't mater to me wether you copy them or not. If I could put your S4 through a replicator, I would do it in a second.

How about this consideration?

There are those who argue that piracy is not a loss, but in fact
increase sales. To use a better example, how about some
expensive piece of software?
i.e. >> $180. Let's say $800. Now, in terms of piracy, some
consider that an $800 loss for every illegal copy. However many of
those "pirates" never would actually go out and spend those $800,
and it turns out that those who find the tool actually useful
and/or cost-effective will often go out and buy it. Let's face it,
if something is too expensive for your budget, then you won't buy it,
especially if its something of unknown quality or use.
It's something of a better demo than a canned demo perhaps.

Perhaps what should be the next step in software (and it's being considered)
is renting....

Musing from the software industry

-Alex L
99.5 TQT Santorin Blue

Audi will continue to offer the Nav system because their competition is offering it. Which brings up another good Q: How much are others charging for their CDs? And as far as Audi being hurt or having to scrap their program for the Nav system, maybe, instead, it will force them to develop cheaper products (compression routines, use of DVDs, etc...? to limit the # of CDs needed). See, thats called Competition and it will make better products for all of us. I'm doing you a favor! CDs themselves cost about $1, an LCD screen and a uP can't be more $200, so for the $1000+ they charge for the Nav, they will make up their R+D costs pretty quick. Like I said before, I'm not using the hi price as an excuse, I'm not saying its right or wrong; I'm just saying if the CDs can be copied, I will not pay $180 to Audi for a different CD if I need one.

The ability to rent would seem to be a good solution. It would get to be a pain to have to go to the dealership each time you want to travel though. (Surely they would try to talk you into buying the "Great new model" as soon as you got there.)

Even more convenient would be to allow web downloads directly to the Nav system (or to a computer, then to the Nav-- since it will probably be a couple years until our S4's come Internet-ready). Then they could charge you for the download (hopefully a reasonable price-- similar to a rental) and have the Nav Only allow access to the data only for the time period which you purchased in your download. Maybe somtime in the future...

t-bone,

My arguments were all theoretical. I don't have the nav system, and I don't know why Audi charges $180 per CD, and I don't even necessarily agree with that pricing model.

What I do know is that copying and distributing the CDs is a crime, and that was the original point of this thread.

There's a lot of laws that you can break and get away with quite easily. Copying software is among the easiest. Imagine that you saw the CD on a store shelf and priced for $180. Would you consider shoplifting it? Why not? Chance of getting caught too high? Or is it the consequences of being convicted of stealing? The consequences are the same with the copied CD, you just stand a lower risk of getting caught. You stand a higher risk when this becomes a trading circle across the country (as was originally suggested). Sooner or later you'll get one joker who has a copy of the entire set. They will decide to peddle copies on eBay. If the authorities get a hold of this joker, the cat may be out of the bag for everyone involved. Was it worth the risk?

You seem to be looking at only the CD/hardware and their associated costs when trying to decide how much Audi should charge for the system. Have you considered the data? It didn't magically appear on those CDs. Audi paid someone for it. Someone who spent a lot of time gathering and storing the data. Someone that probably considers that data to be worth a considerable amount of money. If that data spans 5 or 6 CDs, then that is one heck of a lot of data. I thought one CD covered the whole US, but either I was wrong or Audi has more accurate and detailed data than I knew about. It might be possible that a good portion of the $180 is to cover the costs of the data. Note I said possible, not probable. I really have no idea.

DIVX was a renting model in which the movie was good for a period of time and then you could not view it anymore. It even had the advantage that you didn't have to return the disk (which was just about the only advantage).

I think the download idea is a good one, particularly for this data, since it is constantly changing. A movie stays the same, but street data is in constant flux, so an updated download beats a purchased CD from that standpoint.

I think some people would still rather purchase via download, so that they are not limited to viewing within a timeframe. Anyway, if it downloads to a PC, then the piracy issue is not solved, unless the car's VIN or ECU or something is tagged to the download so that it only works in my car (again, like DIVX). Otherwise, I can download to my laptop PC and then upload to any Audi.

In the end, if the downloads became possible, I think it would merely shift this debate from "Audi charges too much for the CD" to "Audi charges too much for the download", or something similar.

How's that for a pessimistic view? :-)

I agree that a large chunck of the cost is probably being paid to someone who actually has taken the time to store the data. But, if you go to your favorite software store, you can get these "Road Atlas" type programs for ~$50. All this information exists, so I don't think its additional R+D cost, but probably just a liscensing cost, which should just not be that much. I think you're right, Audi's pricing model is wacked. That's really why people will be driven to copy these CDs. I just don't know what IS a fair price for updates and other discs. I mean people copy Music CDs and they only cost $15. The way I look at it is it's not my problem to figure out the "fair" price, and if $180 is the number they came up with, then I will find another way...! Its wrong, Its a crime, but it is a money saver!

(BTW -- don't report me to the Piracy Police because I also did not order the NAV system with my S4)