I am looking into Sparco Comp. Harnesses for the Avant for the holidays. My GF already ordered the harness bar from Stable energies, but I am a bit confused about the harness setup...

<A HREF="http://www.sparcousa.com/harness_competition.asp">the sparco page is here...</A>

I know, that based on the distance of the bar to my seats, I will need the 75inch H shoulders...

I am not going to run anti submarine right now do to the fact that I am running stock sport seats...

I have 2 questions...

1) what is the difference between pull up and pulldown lap belts

2) mounting. I have installed Rally 4 harnesses in an a4 before, but he was using bolt ins for all 4 lines (back seatbelt anchors for the shoulders) I realize that the lap belt will be using the bolt in hardware kit, but what about the shoulders, since they will be connected to the bar. My confusion lies in that I have never really looked into harness connected to a bar, I have only seen bolt in installs up close.

Thanks, and the GF is getting big brownie points for this gift...

I can't seem to find a good diagram on the net but I know there are some out there. pretty straight forward... lying tying a strap for a backpack.

1) I have pull-up harnesses. once you go pull-up you'll never want to go to pull-down. the rally mazda has pull-down and I much prefer pull-up (to tighten lap harness)

I nearly emailed you straight off...

cool... wanted to be sure I was getting the right stuff... that makes sense.

pull up makes more sense than pull down too, thanks!

I followed your suggestion on brake pads (HP+) and was happy, so thanks again!

You can see how the belts are tied to the cage..<ul><li><a href="http://www.pbase.com/image/8294864">mazda323 rally car</a></li></ul>

You should really re-think that. With an upright seating position, the job of the anti-sub is to keep the lap belts across your hips in an impact. Without them, the shouler harnesses will pull the lap belt up around your spleen/stomach/ribs/heart and you can suffer major internal injuries.

In a reclined seating position, the anti-subs also keep you from sliding under the belts.

Stable Energies pic's of their harness bar in an avant.
<a href="http://www.stableenergies.com/stable/audi.htm">Stable's harness bar</a>Also, I would heed Mark Delon's advice. If you have not yet purchased the harness, look into the Dietz harness from stable energies. They have discount prices for harness + bar purchases. You should get an anti submarining device, so that you really can go balls-to-the-wall (speed wise)when racing. The 2 leg points can be attached to the seats attachment to the car. You'll be removing the seat anyway to install the lap belt, so it won't be that much more of a pain to install. Plus, it will provide much better support. I have sport seats with leather, and did a Time Trial with no harness, and was hurting from being thrown around in the seat, the next TT I got a harness, a 4 point, and was much more secure, for sure, but now I wish I had a 5 or 6 point. I am currently saving up for the Deitz harness and bar from Stable E. I sat in a car with that setup, and it was awesome. Seriously.

This is a 6 pt. Sabelt harness in my rally car. The shoulders go back to a bar with welded hooks that are the same size as the hooks on the floor frame. Note the intermediate buckles behind the seats so length can be adjusted and the buckles on the straps themselves. This is a pull down tightening system. You pull down on the tails of the nylon from the quick release latch. The belts are turned around on the drivers seat so you can see the back side of the buckles and a bit of the tails that you pull down to tighten.

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/38899/rallq0008.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/38899/rallq0009.jpg" border="0">

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/38899/rallyq_19.jpg" border="0">

are you using eyelets and a bolt in kit or a clip in kit?

I am thinking more like this...

<IMG SRC="http://www.stableenergies.com/stable/Images/Avant_2.jpg">

that is the stable energies bar (ordered already) and I was gonna do the same thing as that pick, around the bar with foam padding to hold them in place....

thoughts?

will (if I understand correctly) allow for super easy additions of the anti submarine in the future.

so if I were to add the anti submarine belts...

the sparco duals (page <A HREF="http://www.sparcousa.com/pharness_competition.asp?id=331">here</A>
(they have a single too) would be the better bet, and I would bolt those to the seat frame mounting points?

hmmmm not positive how though, since the A4 manual seats are actually hindged in the track in back, and pivot in front, there isn't a place to bolt the anti sub belts... thoughts?

my other issue would be adjustments on the anti sub line, since too tight would actually pull the cam AWAY from my chest...

The mounting points on the bar are identical to the other 4 of the sabelt harness(loops about the thickness of a padlock welded to the frame). The entire harness can be unhooked from the car (with the Sabelt snap in connectors on the ends of each belt). So no, the shoulder harness doesn't wrap around the bar as shown in some of the other pictures. There are no bolts or threaded fasteners in the system. I'm not familiar with the aftermarket bolt in harnesses so I'm at a loss. I didn't install or design the harness setup in my car. Its the audisport rally setup and uses off the shelf sabelt snap in clips in harness but all the mounting is custom. Just thought you might want to see one type of rear bar setup.

with the stock belts, and they do leave lots to be desired, I agree... that is the primary point of this install... and eventually I will start tracking (I am waiting, cause it is expensive, and I am WAY hooked on autox, so track will be WAY too easy for me to want to be running twice a month, and that is $$$ in and of itslef, not to mention I will need brake upgrades, tires, blah blah... I tend to have an addictive personality, gotta keep it in check ;-)

that bar is the one I ordered... I skipped the deitz harnesses and am looking at sparco based on cost. I trust the quality of both setups, so that is a wash in my mind....

I think I will add the anti subs then (they aren't too much extra) based on everyones response...

I just need to find out how to mount them under the manual A4 seats...

I realized i posted before I actually read your post (got all excited with the pics ;-)

gotcha... I fully understand your setup... I am thinking I will do wrap around the bar style on the shoulders, bolt throughs on the sides and anti sub...

the sparco bolt in kit looks like this:
&lt;IMG scr="http://www.sparcousa.com/images/239.jpg"&gt;

I am assuming that the zip ties keep them from shifting? (I realize that they will be tight enough when on to keep them from moving much...)

The wrap around is preferred since it doesn't mean mettling with your cage, drilling or welding to the bar. The SCCA has been pretty picky about stuff mounted to the roll cage. It was okayed in an inspection last year. But If I had to do it now from scratch, I'd go with a wrap around for the rear and snap ins for the other 4 pts up front. It makes it easier if you have to remove your seat. Snap in connections also allow more degrees of freedom (swiveling) which can be useful in an adjustable seat that goes forwards and backwards. I would think that the bolt in flange will not swivel or move so the belt is less apt for changes in the seat location.

I am not sure how I could utilize the factory mounting places for the snap ins for the lap belt and the anti sub belts, but I will look into it... your point seems valid...

The wrap is the way to go on the rear. But look carefully at the angles the straps make. Also, the seat needs to really be fixed well with a FIA base and real structural attachements. Otherwise the whole system floats around in a crash and you come free of the belts. (Seat braces are really important too.)

The top pull belts came from single seaters where the crew could really reef upward on them. On other cars they pull down so that you can have leverage on them. 5 points are fine if you don't crash, 6 pt will save the jewels and provide more mtg points.

Camlock, camlock, never the single clip! Ask anyone who has had to do a rescue with the dirt trackers what happens when the clips load up or bend.

You don't want to use the factory seat mounts to hold your harness. That puts alot of stress that the seat mounts are not designed to see. The idea behind the harness is to take lateral forces from the driver being tossed this way and that, into the belts which transfers them into a tension load down into the frame. If you only have a seat, then the lateral forces are taken up as additional stress in the seat mounts. Thats not a good thing. A good 5 or 6 pt. harness will actually reduce the stresses on the seat mounts when the driver is being tossed around. Drill the bolts into the frame and take all the necessary steps to inhibit rust and water penetration from the bottom side. A zinc rich paint(cold galvanizing) can be used. My stub bolts are drilled then welded into the frame so they won't come loose.

Here's a closeup of the rear mounts and snaps. I *wouldn't* recommend this setup now since drilling through the cage is not as sound as simply wrapping the belts around. But hey, this is the way Audisport did it in their rally cars of the 80s. I would imagine a heavy driver might see the windshield on hard front end impact. Those clips will bend before a wrap around setup fails.

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/38899/img_0003.jpg" border="0">

And one shot of the 6 pt. camlock. You can see the center pin mount between the seats as an example. The two under the seat for the crotch belts were hard to get a good picture. The one on the outside goes into the frame between the seat and door. I couldn't get a picture of that one either.

<img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/38899/img_0004.jpg" border="0">

$100 each at racerwholesale...dang, what a good deal that was :)

albeit it'll keep the camlock in place (so that it doesn't go up), but it'll also pull it away from your body if it's so far in front (not coming from center of seat).

tough call...

Personally, if he just wants to stay in place for an auto-x, I'd get one of those wrap-around body thingies like WYSIWYG uses...