It appears I spoke too soon...I do have subframe cracks, apparently due to aftermarket anti-sway bars. I am now trying to find a place that can MIG or TIG weld the crack back to semi-normal. I also am working with a friend in the design of a brace component to help support the connection of the sway bar to the subframe. I will let you all know what happens.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM (in the land of Geo Metro's)<p>P.S. Atleast the dealer picks up the rental car fee now....<br>

I was surprised that I was showing cracks (or the start of them) and you weren't...<p>My brother-in-law does some custom welding jobs for mustangs (and other muscle cars) and may be able to do something for me...but timing is a problem.<p>If you find someone to do this...let us know, they will have a line of customers with aftermarket bars wanting this same work done.<p>Sharon<br>

Steve, when I was looking at my mounting areas, I couldn't find any cracks... same as you the first time. Should I remove the bushings to get a better look??<p>Where _IS_ this fault occuring?<p>If you (or any others) describe in more detail what to look out for, I'd certainly appreciate it!!!

that I have a crack on the drivers side...man, I could not see one when I jacked up the car, but it is amazing how good you can see with one of those big hydraulic lift thingies. I think Sharon and mine are about the same in terms of damage...much less than that of poor Jim Simone. However his car now has the new subframe and is getting aligned as you read this post. The crack apparently is near the yellow painted bolt on the subframe...I have not had Steve Shupe exactly show me where it is...but this sounds about correct. I will try to take a pic when it is up on the mega lift...(much easier to take pics this way).<p>{Heavy Sigh} I really don't need this right now. I am now very curious to see what Neuspeed says about this. Jim, any new info on that front?<p>Steve S. < - - - - depressed now :-(<br>97 2.8QM<p>P.S. For all you others with TAP/Addco or other sway bar manufacturers...this will most likely happen with any aftermarket sway bars...this is not just a Neuspeed deal. The issue is that the area of the subframe that supports the sway bar mounts is not sufficiently strong to handle the added stress of aftermarket (translation: larger diameter) sway bars.<p><br>

From what I've read it appears that people with steel uplinks are damaging their subframes and people with plastic uplinks are just ending up with broken uplinks.<p>(Heavy sigh also) I have steel uplinks. I guess I'll be removing them for now.<p>Drew<br>98 2.8 qm Neuspeed springs/Bilsteins, Neuspeed antisway bars NOT!, 225/45/17

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Did they change the mounting points between the 97 and 98 model years? From what I saw they looked pretty much the same from underneath. If they were not changed, why have we not heard of any problems with the sport package (29mm front bar)? <p>Chris<p><p><p><p>

I bolted home and jumped under my car to see if I had any damage. From what I could see, I don't have any damage. WHEW!!! (Fill the page with WHEWS!!!)<br>Checked the welds where the mounting points attach to the subframe-- I assume that's the trouble spot.<p>As soon as I get a chance, I'm _yanking_ the rear bar. I'm not satisfied that the problem is only a Neuspeed only problem. Luckily, I have another car to drive in the meantime.<br>When you get a pic, please let me know... <br>

First of all, I'm sorry to hear of this, Steve. You know, I really didn't need the company. :-(<p>Secondly, there was a mix-up with the shipping company to pick up my subframe yesterday so it hasn't happened yet. They're supposed to return today or tomorrow and should have it in APS/Neuspeed's hands by the end of the week.<p>You should call Greg Woo, the pres. of APS/Neuspeed at (805) 388-7171, x725 and inform him of your situation. I suspect the more evidence we present, the more likely they will do something about it.<p>Jim

'cause then I wouldn't be paying $2000 to replace my subframe right now. (I have the plastic uplinks.)<p>Jim

Most likely the subframe is identical from 97,98,98.5. What's different is the uplink. 97 to early 98's have steel uplinks and the later ones have plastic uplinks.<p>The problem so far is the rear swaybars. I orginally had the sport package. Before I installed the Neuspeeds on, I examined both the sport and the Neuspeed. I tried flexing them with all my weight. I could hardly tell the difference between them. The Neuspeed rears were MUCH stiffer though. Sport package rears are the same as non-sport package.<p>Drew

Initially, I looked under the car myself and didn't see it (although at that point, I didn't really know what to look for). It may be worth a second look and bring a small flashlight/pen light.<p>When the car was on a lift, and the grime wiped away, Steve Shupe (our favorite audi tech) pointed it out. Two problem areas pointed out, on my car at least: (1) the washer (I believe this is for the bolt that connects the lower control arm to the subframe) appears to have separated slightly from the subframe. Can you slip a fingernail between the washer and the subframe? Well, you shouldn't be able to; the washer should be flush against the subframe. (2) the crack in the paint/metal on my subframe was located parallel to the ground on the end of the subframe, above the U-bolt (not directly above, but higher up the subframe). You could see a little white line that wrapped around the end of the subframe.<p>Sharon

"Sport package rears are the same as non-sport package."<p>I thought the non-sport bar was smaller than sport, maybe 12mm vs. 16mm for sport and 22mm for the Neuspeed bar.<p>Jim

The metro had a major alignment problem...took it back and got this awesome<br>Ford Escort...aren't you folks envious????? At least it is on Audi's dime this<br>time.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM

I think everyone should drive a POS (piece-of-XXXX) one day each year just to appreciate how nice the A4 really is....I think it would be very therapeutic<br>for all of us.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM

But it really shows what the A4 is capable of doing.<br>The GTI is fun, but in a different way.

Oh, I thought I read a couple posts way back saying that the sport package only changes to bigger swaybar for the front besides the spring/shocks.<p>Drew<br>

If they don't try and help out with fixing the problem, I think we should do an FAQ to warn people NOT to buy the Neuspeed sway bars.<p>Christian

This issue is not just a Neuspeed issue....anyone that has aftermarket sway bars may experience this situation to some degree. Jim, Sharon, and I just happen to have Neuspeed sway bars. I still hope they come up with some type of reinforcement in the subframe area, to support the additional stress. I am still independently developing, with the help of my trusty Audi Tech, a part time (full time?) support piece so that I may continue to use the Neuspeed sway bars.<p>I may call Neuspeed today to check the latest status. I think I will develop something to use "way before" they so....just my humble opinion.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<br>

.

Could this really be a comon problem and Audi is not telling anyone?<p>And I find it REALLY HARD to believe that this is happening to a supposedly well (and STRONGLY) built SAFE car as an Audi. Has anyone also contacted the Quattro Club about this????

Most of the Quattro Club members are those that own OLDER Audis....they probably don't give a hoot about what is happening to a small number of A4 owners with aftermarket sway bars. Just my opinion.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM

The reason that Steve Shupe knew where to look is from inspecting the damage on my subframe.<p>Steve is an upstanding and honest guy. That's why I trusted his opinion and analysis of my car. The first time he saw it, we spent an hour of his time (after work) perusing it from all angles. Sure, he works for Audi, but I believe that if he saw any indication that the failure was caused by a defect, he would have said so.<p>I even raised that same question, "Doesn't Audi over-engineer the design to go beyond the expected loads?" He said that, according to the Audi engineers, in many cases they do but in others they provide a margin a safety only for their own components, not necessarily for anything you _might_ add to the car. And, truthfully, you can't blame them for that.<p>Now, if it turns out that something like this happens to a car with the factory suspension, sport or otherwise, it becomes a different story.<p>Neuspeed received my subframe on Friday and will continue to inspect in the coming week. We'll see what they have to say and how they'll proceed from there is just speculation at this point. Hopefully, the problems will be solved and everyone will have peace of mind.<p>Jim

Yep Steve, you are right there! That is why I got off that damn mailing list. All they talk about it 5kq, 4kq, pentosin, bombs, etc . . . . <p>So I got tired of getting over 100 messages and MAYBE one that was worth reading (for me). Somehow I feel it is like back in my old Triumph Club days - according to most of them, British Leyland only made the TR series (Tr2, 3, 4, 4A, and 6 - they never considerd the TR&/8 as a TR), so those of us with Spitfires and GT6's were always looked down upon, even when I would blow them away at the AutoX events!

Mike,<p>The Q-list and Quattro Club are not affiliated with each other. One is just a mailing list for Audis and the other is an official club.<p>With respect to the Q-list, I also unsubscribed from it because of the mail volume. I find it much easier to peruse the HTML archived versions. You can scan the headers and only read what you want to. What is nice is that new messages are added to the archive almost immediately. Yes, most of the info is for older Audis but there is good info to be found.<p>Sean<br>97 1.8Tqm<ul><li><a href="http://coimbra.ans.net/quattro/archives.html">Q-List Archives</a></li></ul>

I still sub the the list- thru the archive version. I agree, there is still a wealth of knowledge on the board. Dan Simoes does a great job with the list.<p>Just wait a few years when our A4s are off warranty... we'll be the same as the guys with 5000s and 100s. The 2001 Audi A4 TT sports coupe quattro owners will feel like castouts.