Help me balance out my car. I think suspension modifications are called for, because the car wants to roll during turns and dives in quick stops and pre-turn braking. I recently drove an A4 1.8TMS with a stiff shock setup that felt almost absolutely flat during all but the most aggressive driving. What is the effect of swaybars versus suspension changes. My guess is that suspension changes are of far more substance than swaybar swaps. Since there's no Chicago A4 club, I'm depending on you guys as usual.<p>Thanks in advance.<p>Cameron<p>~~~~~~~~~<p>Platform: Audi A4<br>Engine: 4-cylinder 5v; Turbocharged and Intercooled<br>Layout: In-line<br>Driveline: Quattro IV<br>Transmission: Custom Two-Bank Shifter<br>Corner Markers: Bosch clear Euro OEM<br>Side Markers: in.pro clear Euro<br>Taillights: in.pro clear Euro<br>Front Bumper: A!Avantgarde<br>Right Skirt: A!Avantgarde<br>Left Skirt: A!Avantgarde<br>Rear Bumper: A!Avantgarde<br>Front Suspension: Stock<br>Rear Suspension: Stock<br>Wheels: Stock<br>Tires: Stock<br>Mirrors: Stock<br>Driver's Seat: Stock<br>Driver Restraints: Stock<br>Passenger's Seat: Stock<br>Passenger Restraints: Stock<br>Steering Wheel: Four-Spoke Panel<br>Grille: A!Avantgarde Sport<br>Badges: None<br>Tint: None

Questions :<br>What kind of roads do you drive on (i.e. highway, urban, twisties) ?<p>What kind of condition are they in (i.e. smooth as a baby's butt, washboard-y, just slightly less rocky than the Continental Divide)?<p>How do you want the car to feel when your done (firm in corners, stiff in corners, or soooo harsh that on smooth pavement you can feel it when you drive over dead worms) ?<p>Since you haven't yet started to mess with the suspension, you have a lot of choices to make. Swaybars will change the cornering characteristics (i.e. flatter) but what you may really be searching for is springs/shocks.<p>John<br>Trained Seals Racing<br>(if I don't answer, I've run off to Mid-Ohio for the SCCA Run-Off's, to screw around and try to snag a tire deal for next year. Look for me on Speedvision's coverage - 1-6pm eastern, Friday-Sunday -...I'll be the guy with the seal on a leash)

I know...I know....DSS satellite dish...get it now...while its hot. :-&<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<p><br>

.

Most of my miles are highway, probably 99%. While these roads aren't the perfection racing suspensions expect, they're far better than your average highway -- partly due to Cook County's trucking infrastructure and its political influence at the mayor's offices. Roads are relatively smooth, and you never see a crushed air dam (though suspension work would probably work to ensure lack of damage).<p>The main height considerations are steep driveways, speedbumps, and snow. In my area, there may be 5" of snow on the ground routinely, making it a true Quattroville where the main road hazard in wintertime is high school students trying to get their Miatas un-stuck. Height for the sake of "sportiness" isn't particularly important to me, though if height adjustments result from a suspension change I would not be disappointed (so long as the reduction in ground clearance was not significant relative to the considerations above). I would like a car that is, overall, closer to level attitude (attitude stated in yaw *and* pitch here) during a higher percentage of my driving -- and I am willing to sacrifice a significant amount of "ride quality" (currently a euphemism for Jell-O like body movement) in order to acheive this goal.<p>I think everyone's definition of "firm" and "stiff" is a bit different, along with subjective positions between the two. I'd rather not fall in the "stiff" category, but I certainly want to the car to be "firm". I drove a Boxster with the Sport 17" Wheels, etc. package and I'm really looking for a ride a bit firmer than this. However, the NSX with the "Ultra" package sitting at Motorwerks awhile ago was "stiff" -- too stiff for everyday driving. But, I must admit, there is a reason I posted this question in a forum with all the AutoX guys as opposed to posting in the general A4 forum -- I want something firmer and more responsive than most.<p>Hope this helps in giving you an idea of the suspension characteristics I'm looking for. If it doesn't, post questions, and I'll be happy to define further.<p>Cameron

I meant "pitch and roll"... pitch referring to nosedive braking and roll referring to lateral body movement not mirrored by road conditions. I do apologize, but I'm writing this during lunch and I have a calc exam in ten minutes. Sorry about that.<p>Studying and Thinking about A4's,<br>Cameron<br>

<br>

the 125cc GP race from Barcelona - it was absolutely awesome !!!! Those guys have HAIR !!!<p>Just don't even think about it, Steve. Just keep watching one of the 7 shopping channels that your paying for on cable.

The body roll can be handled by bigger swaybars front & rear, but the nosedive you mentioned has only one solution - springs.<p>The swaybars will keep the car "flatter" as you twist the car into corners. Swaybars are cheap - a whole lot cheaper than anything else you can put on the car. Start with swaybars. Too much front or rear bar might unbalance your shocks/springs, but I play with bars all the time, (even "blade" type adjustable bars that can be tweaked from full hard to full soft in about 10 seconds) and haven't found that to be the case. <p>Nosedive/overall firmness ? - You need firmer springs that will compress less as the suspension loads move to the front of the car. Many will tell you that with a spring change, you have to change shocks... Remember: opinions vary. <p>My personal theory AND practice ? Shocks can be really expensive (I can think of lots of more entertaining things to buy than shocks), and you already own a set (they're in the car NOW). Get a set of springs, & stick'em in the car. If you decide that you don't like the stiffer springs, take'em out and you're only out a couple hundred bucks. Decide you like'em, maybe in a year or two upgrade the shocks. Wear the free ones out first, or at least blow'em apart with the new springs. <p>Coil-overs ? Email me and I'll give you my opinion. I won't post it here in deference to all those out there with coil-overs in their street cars. And they're expensive, too.<p>Bars, then springs, then maybe shocks. That's a nice, progressive approach that will allow you to make value (and performance) judgements on each addition. If you do it all at once, you'll never know what each component does by itself. My own upgrades are based on VALUE, not on PRICE. I do it the same for my race cars. <p>What have I done to my A4 1.8TQM ? New ECU from Hoppen. Nothing else. Stock suspension is soft and supple - perfect for wet/slippery/snowy crap where I live, and comfortable on LONG highway runs (I will sometimes do a 800-1000 mile run in a day). Oh, yeah - I do have a little box that sets off radar detectors in other cars - LOTS of fun to torture Camaro/BMW/Supra drivers on the highway. I hope I never grow up...<p>John<br>Trained Seals Racing<p><br>

Hey John,<p>Any idea where we can get that little box too? Sounds fun.<p>Drew<br>

Great! Now all the panic-stop, horrible drivers are going to be causing accidents all over the place when their cheap Radars go 'instant-on'.<br>Around here, people are so dumb they SLAM on the brakes if the see or "hear" a cop, even if they're only doing 5mph over!<br>Where do you guys live again? I hope it's not anywhere near Michigan. :)<br>-C.

John, I'm curious as to what your opinion is about what some SCCA racers, club racers and Q-listers have to say about cornering (specifically in a track setting) and that when you have a really stiff bar(s) you can lift inside wheels right off the ground during cornering/apexing. The opinion being that without full contact of all four wheels; it is not good. What is your feeling on this and why?<br>I am open to all info. Thanks! -Cathleen <br>P.S. - I do QCUSA events and have Eibach Springs with Konis that are custom-valved (full race damping). <br>

Who did your conversion for headlight squirters with System S? How much did this conversion cost? Do you have info. on how to do the conversion w/o going to 1000 miles East-northeast? <p>Thanks a lot!<p>Cameron<br>

Smooth roads in Cook County? NEVER! I find that as fiction! :)<p>Back many years ago when I lived there and raced Triumphs - it was told to our Club that British Leyland was SO IMPRESSED by our potholes, that they made a cast of one to build on their test tracks back in England! <p>And RUMOR had it that an MG Midget once disapeared in one never to be found again!

It really depends on how high your threshold of panic is, and how big a tire budget you have. <p>Lots of cars do the "doggie dance" (i.e. lift a leg) on the way INTO corners - Golfs, Rabbits and Sciroccos are famous for this. It's actually kind of fun to panic the people behind you, until they figure out that you can do it under control in every corner. Carrying a front wheel on the way OUT of a corner, on the other hand, presents some problems. Running alot of neg. camber doesn't help matters, as the outside edge of the inside tire will normally come up in most production based cars. <p>If your front bars are SO stiff that you carry a front wheel on the way out of a corner, then you probably ought to think about higher rate springs. A bar that's overpowering the front springs will give you big time understeer, and cook your tires really quick. My earlier comment to Cameron about spring/shock compatibility with bars wasn't clear enough - Think of it as an organization chart: bars & springs have a solid line between them, bars & shocks have a dotted line. If your springs aren't up the loads that the bar will generate, your gonna COOK your outside tire, both because it's taking most of the suspension load, and because it's understeering, your cranking in more steering (beyond the optimum 7-8 deg. slip angles, and you should be able to feel the tire scrubbing. <br>I've got a program in my laptop called "Tire Temp. Analyzer" Version 2.01 by Autoware Inc. that allows you to input outside, middle and inside hot tire temps, and instantly tell you what settings to change (i.e. more rear shock, less pressure right front, less front bar...ad nauseum). Invariably, if tires on one side of the car are hotter, or if the outside edges (of the fronts, or the rears in a non-solid axle car) are hotter, it'll tell you, among other things -"LESS FRONT BAR" or "LESS REAR BAR"<p>I like cars that oversteer on the way into a corner. I hate cars that oversteer on the way out of a corner (like, after you've got it to an apex and are screwing the power back down). These are matters of personal preference. I don't like buying tires all the time. Running so much front bar that you carry a tire in the air on the way out means that you haven't gotten the springs right, or you're driving like a wanker, or you have an unlimited tire budget.<p>BTW, a long time ago I think you mentioned that your dad used to build hot-rod race Corvairs - your last name isn't Yenko, is it ????<p>John<br>Trained Seals Racing<br>(not on my way to Mid-Ohio tonight, work has intruded again....)<br>(and Cameron: before you put sway bars in your car, get involved in the discussion regarding swaybar mounts cracking - I wasn't reading it, but Steve S. pointed it out to me - Yikes, I'd be really annoyed if that was my car)<p>

It was called the "Zapper" from Electronic Rainbow in Indianapolis - (317) 291-7262 if they're still in business. I've had mine for about 10 years.

nt<br>

<br>nt

Electronic Rainbow stopped making them earlier this year. FCC stopped them.<p>Drew

This software you mentioned sounds very interesting. Watching the touring cars on Speedvision I always am so fascinated with the complete science of it all and how the crew has tire engineers who's sole job is to measure temps, etc. play with toe and camber, pressures etc. Then there's all the suspension variables that go in to it. Actually, there was a clip about this once on Speedvision during a BTCC coverage about a year ago and it was specifically about this with the AudiSport group. Quite interesting. I wish I had taped it.<br>Also, when watching the touring cars who hit a bit of curbing into the turn, they lift up the inside wheels. You know it really looks cool (and I've done it myself) but it does unsettle the car and must scrub speed with not all four tires on the ground. I am not an engineer (as Dad is) but I do love learning this stuff. <br>No, my Dad's surname isn't Yenko. I'll ask if he's heard of this person. He crewed and built Corvair race cars with/for Jerry Thompson. This was a while back of course....mid-sixties.<br>I'm in agreement with your comment about a little oversteer on entry. I find that even though I am no expert on driving, I am learning to create a little of this with driving technique. It is quite fun to change inputs an see how the vehicle responds in a given situation.<br>-Cathleen

Cameron, I will try to e-mail you off line. Yes, I had my headlight washer system installed by my CEC dealer.<br>However, I am associated with this group (my car is the project car) and as I would be spamming because they do not YET advertise on A4.org so I will obey the rules.<br>So, if you do not get my e-mail (our server was not working well yesterday), please post to let me know by the end of today and I will try from a different computer/location tonight.<br>-Cathleen

If you were going to Mid-Ohio for runs offs..where do you live?<br>I love that track!

<br>whew! Now if we could just get rid of the cops' radar.

Not!....he is in NY.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<br>

the same guy that sold barely street-legal drag cars in the late sixties? Yenko-prepped Camaros and Novas are highly desirable collector cars. He'd take a stock car right from the factory, usually with radio-delete and A/C-delete options, strip it down and drop in high-po big block motor. Then he'd add custom interior and paint and sell it for a few points more than a fully-equipped model.<p>Ahhh, to be on Woodward Ave. in mid-1970...<p>

Don Yenko - built alot of strange stuff, including "Yenko Stingers", which were roadrace Corvairs. There still are lots of'em around, and they show up all over the place - vintage events, SCCA regionals, there was even one at Mid-Ohio for the Run-Off's this weekend...<p>I just happen to like strange race cars. Peugeots in IMSA Firehawk ? I'm your man...<br>

As Steve stated, I'm in the lovely tundra of western NY - I usually describe it in "towing time" to racetracks...<p>Watkins Glen: 82 minutes<br>Nelson Ledges: 4.3 hours<br>Mid-Ohio: 6.8 hours<br>Pocono: 5.2 hours<br>Lime Rock: 5.25 hours<br>Mosport: 4 hours<br>Shannonville: 4.3 hours<br>Summit Point: 7 hours<br>Briar/Loudon/New Hampshire (depending on your memories of the place): 7.25 hours<br>Roebling Road: 21 hours<br>Sebring: 28 hours<br>Road Atlanta: 18 hours

Hela-long drive to those places for you...for me:<p>Sears Point: 90 minutes<br>Laguna Seca: 90-120 minutes (depending upon traffic and event)<br>My Garage: instantaneous...I just sit there and make engine noises and steer the wheel.<p>Wishing I were independently wealthy and able to race at all....<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<p>P.S. John, have you been to lovely Hamilton?<br>

Ah...<br>My Hometown Track; Waterford Hills (see mention of in latest issue of C&D; A4 2.8 vs. 328i)- 40 minutes<br>Grattan Raceway - 2 hours<br>Mid-Ohio - 3 hours<br>Gingerman Raceway - 3 hours<br>Blackhawk Farms - 5 hours<br>Road America - 7 hours<br>Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, etc. (will find out next year)<p>How was the run-offs? I only caught a little on Speedvision last night. <br>BTW, re: Don Yenko...my Dad's name is Don too. <br>Popular name of the era I guess.<br>-C.<p><br>

nt<br>