Ok, let me set the stage...the owner/driver of this car is a part-time Skip Barber instructor at Laguna Seca Raceway in Monterey CA. This is a virtually stock BMW 318iS with 134 bhp. The only mod I think he did is change the shocks. My question is....is this good technique, ok technique, or bad technique?....I am trying to learn...please explain "why" you think it is good, bad, or ugly. TIA<p>BTW, he just beat me at the autocross by 0.1 seconds. (his time 48.6 seconds)<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<p>

This is the pic again.

This guy only beat you by .1 seconds and he's an instructor? Steve, you may be in the wrong line of work! Actually, a 318 in stock form is hardly a pavement burner, but I would still expect an instructor to make better use of the car. In any case, without a video, it's hard to analyze this. It appears to me that he was coming in from the right there a little too hot, hit the brakes, and steered the car sharply (a little late). At this point in the picture, he is steering the other way to correct, and is on the power with the ass end hanging out a little. He'll make it through the corner, and it would appear that what he did was the best way to correct the situation mentioned. However, sliding the back end out like that, and having to do corrections burns up time. Setting up for the corner a little earlier would have allowed an earlier turn in, leaving him a better chance of hitting the apex smoothly and finishing up the corner under power. So, where does this course go after the picture? Does it continue left, or is it an S configuration and go right? I'm sure One of the pros would be able to see this better with the picture, and will probably have a totally different analysis. I just wanted to put my theory in early! :-)<p>Charles<br>

Without seeing this in motion, it's kinda hard to make educated, informed comments. But, since the Internet specializes in un-educated, ill-informed comments, here goes:<p>He's rotating the car on the brakes. Not a bad technique...but in a RWD car it's probably costing him time, as he's gotta catch the car before he screws the power back down. In a FWD car, you can left foot brake to slide the back end, while sliding the front end with as much power as you need to get past the apex and hit the track-out point. <p>I love driving FWD cars like this. Driving RWD like this will slow you down, or land you on your roof. <p>Since the whole world seems to qualify their comments these days: I speak from the perspective of a roadracer, not an autocrosser. I don't autocross - it's not that I won't, but I enjoy the raw adrenaline terror of screwing up big time on a race track, and this leaves me no time to autocross. I have good friends who autocross. I've corrupted some of them and turned them into roadracers. They're much poorer now, and they've learned to despise me. I could probably retire 8 years sooner if I'd just quit racing, and get a bowling ball.<p>John<br>Trained Seals Racing<br>(it's late, I have to install a weather radar 140 feet in the air tomorrow, and I can't find my anti-gravity shoes...nitey-nite)

I agree with John . . . without seeing this on video, or a set of shots to see a few before and after, it is hard to make a judgement call. But it does look at first like he is going to nail that driver's side pylon. But looking closer, it appears he is in a wee bit of a 4 wheel drift to the right, with a touch more drift in the rear than the front judging by the very slight angle of the front wheels (off center) and the leaning posture of the driver.<p>I don't know if this would be the quickest way through that gate, but for the spectators it might be the coolest :)<p>But in a FWD it is very hard to do a 4 wheel drift as we don't have power in the rear wheels to cause them to break away easily, but in a Quattro I think it can be done.

Let's see....this guy not only did not hit that pylon, but he didn't hit any others either....the course went straight to the finish after that turn...so it essentially was a 90 degree left turn to the timing light. Jan (the driver) was oversteering each turn definitely heal/toe with trailbraking. I rode with him on the track the following day at Thunderhill, and he can definitely make that 318iS move....it seems like in both autocross and on the track you actually aim the car to hit the pylons (autox) or the burm<br>(road racing) and then let the car drift (powerslide?) outward so you have the tightest line. It was strange looking at a number of pics of how experienced and in-experienced drivers took that same turn. I think I am actually learning something that I may be able to use. <p>Thanks for the comments folks.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<br>ex-member of the Pylon Relocation Society

Yecchhh is right.<p>That is a dramatic but pretty slow way through a corner. I would definitely agree that Ax and track are two different animals. If the BMW driver is doing that type of cornering consistently then he could be much faster and save a lot on tire wear.<p>One corner and one picture do not tell the full story alright. Often you have to sacrifice a good line in one spot to make up time in a more critical place.<p>You do generally want to be centimeters from the apex cone. If there is more than that, time is a wasting. We want smooth turns, with an emphasis on coming out of the turn carring as much speed as possible (heavy and relatively slow cars). You may find yourself entering slowly and leaving faster.

I'm no authority on this, but after reading all of the other posts...<p>I agree...he's drifting the car around the cone. With the right tires, this works. With street tires (that don't shed heat well), he'll build up a lot of heat doing this. Seeing that he's at the end of the AutoX, this doesn't sound bad. But if it's a long straightaway, the sliding is going to burn off speed. While that helps him burn off excessive speed from entering the corner, it does limit his exit speed. He's got to let the car recover from the slide (notice the car's attitude...leaning hard toward the right front) before he can hammer the gas for the final straight.<p>Every car has a different style. Maybe this works well on a RWD, low powered BMW. I'd bet, though, that an M3 driver would take this turn differently. It all depends, though, on what kind of setup you make from the previous corner. <p>In my 911, I'd brake much earlier accelerate slightly through the corner, applying more gas throughout, and apex late. The tail drifts, but sticks well. This would help curb the tendancy of the 911 to have uncontrollable oversteer. Late braking makes it really twitchy.<p>My A4 doesn't slip and slide well. I don't feel like I can get anything other than understeer out of it. As is, I'd probably do something similar to my 911, except with a slightly earlier apex (just not quite as late, but still late). I'd be on the gas, modulating the understeer with throttle and steering.<p>The thing that I really kinda *hate* about AutoXes is the fact that you usually get between 3 and 6 runs. Sometimes 6 isn't enough times to really experiment with entry/exit points and speeds. I'll probably start doing track events next year, when my 911 is solid enough.<p>- Josh<br>- '98 A4q 2.8<br>- '72 911T

I'll throw in my 2 cents if anyone cares ..<p>Here in Charlotte, we have these little replicas<br>of old 39/40 Chevy/Ford racers called Legends Cars. Big money maker for 600 Racing and a call to the track to every lawyer and real-estate broker racer wannabee in the SouthEast. This picture looks like the way some of them approach oval racing .. tail hanging out, and wheels spinning that usually comes simply from approaching the turn too damn fast, trail braking a little and throw it in the direction of the apex. We usually yell at these guys: "slow down and you'll speed up". Basically means a little smoother will usually get you there a little faster with a lot less stress on you, the tires, and the suspension.<p>This might make for good spectating and draw some ooh's and ahh's at an Auto-X but would get him punted in the weeds in a race. <p>A slower approach, get his braking done, set-up, and roll-on to a fast throttle would be my recommendation.<p>Geeze .. and all this from a photo! <gg>.

Our A4's handle like pigs in an AutoX. Mine pushed real bad too! Even with 17X8.5 wheels and 225/45/17 tires. To be competitive, it needs a LOT of suspension work. But then you'd get classed along with souped up Preludes and Integras, and so again not have much of a chance :(

Yes, the a4 when driven improperly and too hard will severly understeer as do many front wheel drive cars and even rear wheel drive cars. Driven properly the A4 has proven itself one of the best cars in its class. For example in SCCA ProSolo2 it has been winning many national events, the 2WD and the Quattro.<br> When I autocross I like to Brake extremely late, aggressively, not abruptly, and trail brake equally as aggresively helping the car turn into the apex and then hitting the gas very aggressively. You'll find the car does remain more neutral under power than FWD and RWD when this is done.<br> I find I can carry a great amount of speed into the apex. Just fooling around I have 2 class wins in SCCA events using stock SP 8000 which are horrible in my opinion when they are cold.<br> You have to dive different cars differently and adapt to changing course and conditions, that's racing.

Mike used to drive a Lotus, so he's used to a very different feel. Right Mike?<p>I would agree with you that the A4 is NOT an autocross pig. I have a 98.5tqm that has consistently smoked my Gstock competition with the P8000's. The only car that I haven't beat is the MR2 with R1's. But the difference is times is just an R tire away.<p>(I have some Hoosiers from my old ax car waiting for some new rims)<p>I find trailing oversteer or late braking really slows my times down, probably just driving style.

Mike, I did pretty well this weekend...with my big fat pig A4. The suspension mods really help in autox situations....that negative camber doesn't hurt either.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<p>P.S. The SCCA results will be in soon...lets see where Corey and I ended up...I just read the SCCA rules again...and I shoulda been in CSP-Rookie class due to the P7000SS tires.<br>

Ok Ok, . . . its probably me and not the car - we just don't "bond". I am used to Lotus, Triumphs, and a super mod Street Prepared 79 RX7 that was a killer and class champ in 4 stated (Midwest). And nobody in my class could touch me on Road Courses.<p>Also, my A4 is an Auto/Tip (MAJOR disadvantage), and the only mods (cause I am in LIMBO right now with the car) are a Stage 2 ABT chip and the wheels/tires - and those are crappy P7000SS at that. And because of my mods I run in Street Touring (to be honest and not run in Stock Class), so I am up against heavily modified (and 2 National Champs) Preludes, and a few Integras as well. So any other car I can beat in my class - but I am just not used to an Auto, let alone a 4 door and in the lower classes. Remember, in the Lotus I was in AS, and the RX7 was in ASP (back then, now it is CSP) - so I am used to go-kart type cars and lower times. As I said in the other forum, I think I have found my dream AutoX car - the "M" Coupe - just as soon as I can afford it. And NO - I am not rich, nor have rich parents. A year ago Sunday all my worldly belongings were stolen when I was being relocated by my company. So I am waiting a settlement. Needless to say, I have suffered for a year now, and its time soon to enjoy something out of it.<p>Don't get me wrong, I like the A4 a LOT! But for AutoX, its just not me :(