pippyrips is an RS4 owner in the UK. He has been a victim of the intake valve deposit problem, and has taken matters into his own hands by enlisting MRC Tuning to help with the problem. He's posted on RS246 and AudiSRS websites, but he's also given me permission to post here, also.
MRC Tuning vs. pippyrips' B7 RS4 (http://audisrs.com/ftopic5000-0-0-asc-.php)
Over the past few months I’ve become concerned by the threads relating to oil/carbon build-up in B7 inlet manifolds. I've also been interested in the threads about developing the inlet manifold to help increase airflow and performance.
As I plan to keep the car for the long haul, I wanted to be sure that everything was as it should be inside my engine as well as seeing what could be done to improve an already great car - further.
Not having the skill/experience /time/ knowledge etc to do this sort of work myself, I needed to find someone capable of doing it for me. Since I’ve been around the Audi scene, I’ve heard nothing but good things about MRC Tuning so got involved in a conversation with them around what could be done.
These conversations culminated in me dropping my car off at MRC last Saturday for a week of work, focusing on:
• Investigating and cleaning any build-up in and around the inlet tract
• Testing a ported and polished inlet manifold
• Improving exhaust flow
• Custom mapping all of the above into one neat package.
MRC wanted to approach the work as a development programme, so it was important to have an independent assessment of results as the week progressed. Surrey Rolling Road was chosen for this so I took my car there for a benchmark dyno before any work commenced where she came in at 390.4bhp.
With the maker set, MRC took the car to their workshop and proceeded to take off the original manifold, only to be confronted by quite a mess:
Although the build up looks sticky, this was only surface deep and underneath it was rock solid and baked on.
Around 10 hours and some serious elbow grease later the guys had managed to clean up all of inlet and valves leaving them good enough to eat your dinner off!:
We plan to monitor any further build up in the intake by taking off the manifold in 1500 miles before sorting the problem once and for all.
With the valves cleaned, MRC continued by fitting a ported and polished inlet manifold they had prepared and headed off to Surrey Rolling road to measure the difference, firstly with just the stock map and then by applying their own custom map.
Blue line – Car in stock form
Red line – Clean inlet, modded manifold, stock map
Turquoise line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, MRC map
So there it was the magic 414bhp with torque improvements to boot!
Buoyed by the good results the guys took the car back to their workshop and focused their attention on the exhaust. A day and a pair of free flowing downpipes later the car was finished and ready to go back to SRR to measure the final results – here they are... 431.1bhp!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/pippyrips/RS4Dynoresultscollective.jpg
Red line – stock car
Pink line – Clean inlet, modded manifold, stock map
Blue line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, MRC map
Green line - Clean inlet, modded manifold, free flow downpipes & MRC map
At this point it’s probably worth reminding everyone SRR is completely independent to MRC and has no interest or benefit in artificially inflating these results.
The final graph shows where the car was a week ago to where it is now:
I have gained up to 50bhp iand 40ftpd of torque in places over the rev range - not bad for an N/A engine! - I love my car http://audisrs.com/images/smiles/icon/icon_mrgreen.gif
To say I am pleased is an understatement. The car is noticeably stronger all over the rev range and much more responsive than before with increased torque that almost feels like a mini turbo has been bolted on – oh and the soundtrack
I would like to thank Lucas, Doug & Minea at MRC for doing such a great job. They are a top bunch who are true enthusiasts and will be the only people to work on my car from now on.
MRC will be launching their new website in 2 weeks or so and will be featuring my car and all that was involved in a step by step blog. I’m sure they will do a far better job than me in detailing the work but in the meantime if anyone else is interested in following a similar path, give them a call – you won’t regret it!!
Tekk
04-01-2009, 11:10 AM
Wow great write-up and INCREDIBLE results :)
What type of costs are we looking at for the cleaning of the IM?
RI A6
04-01-2009, 11:42 AM
1Hr per cylinder to clean.
you should register over on RS246 or audiSRS and ask him. I believe
TeamImola
04-01-2009, 11:57 AM
id also be curious to have seen a run with the stock manifold, down pipes and there tune. i bet alot of power came from your downpipes alone.
titsataki
04-01-2009, 12:55 PM
I would be also curious to see a dyno run after they cleaned the deposits and the buildup. 390 whp on a dyno dynamics dynometer on a AWD car is not bad(they usually read low). Of course the numbers mean very little. The numbers before and after are more meaningful. How the owner likes and feels about the car before and after is even more important.
390whp to 431whp on a NA car is quite substantial.
What does a stock broken in RS4 do on that specific dyno?
Cheers
Nick
RS Maniac
04-01-2009, 01:52 PM
I would be also curious to see a dyno run after they cleaned the deposits and the buildup. 390 whp on a dyno dynamics dynometer on a AWD car is not bad(they usually read low). Of course the numbers mean very little. The numbers before and after are more meaningful. How the owner likes and feels about the car before and after is even more important.
390whp to 431whp on a NA car is quite substantial.
What does a stock broken in RS4 do on that specific dyno?
Cheers
Nick
This is not wheel, but crank HP. The average 414hp RS4 as measure at the crank yeilds low 300s at the wheels. They probably just measured the drivetrain loss (which is substantial on an AWD car) factor and converted it back to crank HP.
So wait, did he leave the stock exhaust and only changed downpipes? It is well documented that the Milltek cat back alone adds about 15whp. I have one and my dyno showed it (no downpipes though).
Does this tuner have a US rep?
Tekk
04-01-2009, 02:01 PM
I was not aware that there are downpipes available for the RS4? Or were these custom?
RI A6
04-01-2009, 04:16 PM
He's on www.rs246.com and www.audisrs.com. You can register and contact him there in the RS4 forum. He's located in the UK
RI A6
04-01-2009, 04:17 PM
Milltek has downpipes for the RS4, but these were custom without cats.
Milltek RS4 downpipes have an issue, the upstream O2 sensor is placed farther away than the stock sensor. The custom downpipes that this guy had fabricated, placed the O2 sensor in the right place.
KryptoniK
04-01-2009, 05:13 PM
I was looking around on ETKA and came about these images. Is this what I think it is? Do we already have an "oil catch-can" from factory?
Milltek has downpipes for the RS4, but these were custom without cats.
Milltek RS4 downpipes have an issue, the upstream O2 sensor is placed farther away than the stock sensor. The custom downpipes that this guy had fabricated, placed the O2 sensor in the right place.
What is this "issue" with the Milltek?
GotRS?
04-01-2009, 11:42 PM
This is not wheel, but crank HP. The average 414hp RS4 as measure at the crank yeilds low 300s at the wheels. They probably just measured the drivetrain loss (which is substantial on an AWD car) factor and converted it back to crank HP.
I just asked over there what drivetrain loss they added in. But you say "measured" loss... not possible for most folks, but that's what I want to see. The Euro guys are really mad about exaggerated hp for this engine. What is the accepted drivetrain loss for this car?
RS Maniac
04-02-2009, 07:39 AM
I just asked over there what drivetrain loss they added in. But you say "measured" loss... not possible for most folks, but that's what I want to see. The Euro guys are really mad about exaggerated hp for this engine. What is the accepted drivetrain loss for this car? Yeah, by measured, I meant "as measured" at the crank or at the wheels. Very tough to really tell what the true drivetrain loss is.
Drivetrain losses on the RS4 are sizable, as they are generally on AWD cars. For example, if you assume the US SAE claimed number by Audi of 414 crank hp is correct (which translates to the European 420 hp), most RS4s that have been dynoed stock are in the very low 300s wheel hp. I've dynoed mine and got 325whp which is with the Milltek cat-back, which is known to add a good 20 or so hp. If you assume it added nothing, than the drive train loss of 325whp/414chp yields about 21.5%. If you adjust for the exhaust, it is likely 24-25% easily. Either that, or the 414 SAE manufacturer-claimed figure in inflated.
To contrast this with a RWD car, my 394 crank SAE HP rated E39 M5 in fully stock form yielded a shade over 330hp (331 IIRC) at the wheels (coincidentally both the M5 and the RS4 have been dynoned at the same machine). This translates to about 16% drivetrain loss. Headers alone added 30whp which was def noticeable, but that was probably due to the fact that the stock headers were very restraining and inefficient. The RS4 exhaust components seem to be better optimized, but you can obviously do a little bit better with downpipes and a catback.
I will be dynoing the 135i soon (same machine), from what I have seen the numbers of SAE 300 crank HP/300lbs tq as advertized by BMW are grossly understated. My dyno shop showed me at least a dozen runs on different 335i that in fully stock form produce 270+ whp and 290wtq. I can tell you that the drivetrain loss on those is certainly more than 10%, so that tells you that the claimed numbers are very conservative. I've heard the same about the GT-R. I mean if the naturally aspirated 3.0 BMW engine produces SAE 255hp, you would think adding 2 turbos (granted small) would yield way better than 300...
RI A6
04-02-2009, 08:08 AM
O2 sensor in Milltek downpipes is placed too far away from exhaust ports
Audi/VW ECU design for FSI wants the sensor to be as close as possible, so that the ECU can differentiate mixture control for each cylinder. If you compare stock and Milltek O2 placement, the difference is obvious, and should have an impact at high RPMs.
Alex@Europrice
04-02-2009, 08:48 AM
Not sure if an aftermarket setup would assist if it was still plumbed into the intake side of the engine. Venting to atmosphere would do the trick... but only if the car wasn't used on public roadways of course...
GotRS?
04-02-2009, 12:51 PM
Good feedback. I was querying the 420 vs 414 difference too. Anyway I don't feel too bad then with my 330whp with a Milltek and Revo. That 135 must be a rocket too.
GotRS?
04-02-2009, 12:53 PM
This damn new forum, my reply to this is way up top "good feedback"
pippyrips
04-02-2009, 01:04 PM
Hi Guys,
I'm Rob - the poster of the original thread.
Scott mentioned he would be posting it up here so I thought I would say hello:)
I didn't actually 'know' I had build-up in my inlet as such, but after reading up on it I was pretty sure it would be inside my engine.
As I plan to the RS for a while I wanted to make sure she was in good condition, and just can't except a high performance car where the performance is constantly slipping away.
I'm really pleased with the results and the sound she now makes is pure audio porn!
We ended up using Milltek straight through downpipes. I spoke to MRC reading the O2 senor placement issue and after looking into it they confirmed it’s actually not an issue. They are very talented guys who know what they are doing so I’m happy to take their word for it.
The down pipes mate with my milltek non res/non cat back system I already had.
Give me a shout if you wan to know anything:)
pippyrips
04-02-2009, 01:07 PM
Btw although slightly off topic.... I once saw a great thread on here with a pictorial step by step guide on how to remove the amber indicator piece from the front headlights....does anyone have the link as I can't find it??!!
Thanks
RS Maniac
04-02-2009, 01:19 PM
Good feedback. I was querying the 420 vs 414 difference too. Anyway I don't feel too bad then with my 330whp with a Milltek and Revo. That 135 must be a rocket too.
Yeah, 330whp with Milltek and Revo sounds about right (i get 5whp less with Milltek but stock ECU, which makes sense). I don't think Revo are claiming more than 10whp anyhow, the good pickup with them is in tq and also the increased HP and TQ numers are all across the rev range as opposed to peak RPM.
The conversion for SAE vs. DYN horsepower is this: 0.9866 (so the 420 becomes 414, the last number being quoted by BMW for their E9x M3 vs. AofA which quotes the 420PS number).
Here's the history:
A scottish dude named Watt figured that a horse could do 746 watts of work.
Germans estimated that their (wimpier) horses could only do 736 watts of work and they called their measurement Pferdestaerke or PS.
Conversion factor is approx 0.9866 SAE = 1 PS.
Similar convention difference when it comes to fuel octane ratings measurement, it is diff in the US vs. Europe (our 93 is not their 93).
Here's a fun fact: the E39 M5 was rated at 400hp, which translated to a 394 SAE and BMW marketing in the US was 'mad' at missing the 400 magic number. The E60 M5/M6 are 507hp, which translates to 500SAE - the magical mark. Ditto for the 135/335i engines - in Europe they are rated at 306hp, which in US is a flat 300 SAE. You gotta love the numbers game...
Vijay
04-02-2009, 01:36 PM
You actually lost power with the Milltek? Wow.....I think you are the only person I have heard this from. I have heard anything from 8-14hp gain
TeamImola
04-02-2009, 05:09 PM
Milltek has downpipes for the RS4, but these were custom without cats.
Milltek RS4 downpipes have an issue, the upstream O2 sensor is placed farther away than the stock sensor. The custom downpipes that this guy had fabricated, placed the O2 sensor in the right place.
What problems?? i have the milltek down pipes and cat back. i have had no issues and the car runs hard. I also have revo tune specificaly for my set up. works perfect! i just got the sp plus, i have a 100 octane tune, program in there and want to see if i get a significant increase over the 91. going to switch to 100 this weekend. unfortunately i only have access to a BUT dyno.
so is the only way to see if you have this build up to take off the manifold?
is there a cleaner that can be ran through the motor to cleas it out? i.e. full aditive
ArthurPE
04-02-2009, 05:10 PM
not to be a nerd, but a HP is defined as follows:
the rate (per time) of work (force over distance) an average horse can do: he can lift 550 lbs 1 ft in 1 sec
550 ft-lb/sec
the work is Distance x F (force, weight in this case = mg), ft x lb, divided by time gives the rate of work or power
I think the difference bewteen SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) and DIN or International/metric is stirctly the measurement method and unit conversions...
this is a simplification, but is generically true...
Horsepower (hp or HP) is the name of several non-SI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units) units of power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)). It was originally defined to allow the output of steam engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_engine) to be measured and compared with the power output of draft horses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse). The horsepower was widely adopted to measure the output of piston engines, turbines, electric motors and other machinery. Different regions adopted different definitions of the unit. Most countries now use the SI unit watt for measurement of power.
The definition of a horsepower unit is different in different applications; application outside of the context of a particular definition will be inaccurate.
One mechanical horsepower of 550 foot-pounds per second is equivalent to 745.7 watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt_(unit))
A metric horsepower of 75 kgf-m per second is equivalent to 735.499 watts
A boiler horsepower is used for rating steam boilers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler) and is equivalent to 34.5 pounds of water evaporated per hour at 212 degrees Fahrenheit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit), or 9809.5 watts
One horsepower for rating electric motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor) is equal to 746 watts
A Pferdestärke is a name for a group of similar power measurements used in Germany around the end of the 19th century, all of about one metric horsepower in size.
ArthurPE
04-02-2009, 05:59 PM
btw: here's the difference
US 550 ft-lb/sec
Euro 75 kg-m/sec converted to ft-lb's ~ 542.48 ft-lb/sec
542.48/550 ~ 0.986 or so
RI A6
04-03-2009, 08:52 AM
There may not be a problem.
I'm told by MRC that Audi does not control mixture on a per-cylinder basis. If that is the case, then O2 sensor placement is less important. The only place it might make a difference is at 8000 rpm.
silverRS4
04-03-2009, 09:44 AM
That sounds correct. Timing can be controlled on a per-cylinder basis, but mixture is just monitored on a per-bank basis, i.e., cylinders 1-4 have a feedback loop and cylinders 5-8 have a separate feedback loop.
titsataki
04-10-2009, 08:17 AM
What problems?? i have the milltek down pipes and cat back. i have had no issues and the car runs hard. I also have revo tune specificaly for my set up. works perfect! i just got the sp plus, i have a 100 octane tune, program in there and want to see if i get a significant increase over the 91. going to switch to 100 this weekend. unfortunately i only have access to a BUT dyno.
so is the only way to see if you have this build up to take off the manifold?
is there a cleaner that can be ran through the motor to cleas it out? i.e. full aditive
I used methanol injection on my STi and it was pretty much like running race fuel. Ι always thought a direct Methanol injection had also the effect for "washing" any deposits off the cylinders/valves. But if stuff is baked on I am not sure this is applicable.
Do you have a custom tune for 100 oct race gas?
Is there a list of tuners that can custom map the RS4?
Cheers
Nick
Vijay
04-10-2009, 03:27 PM
I used methanol injection on my STi and it was pretty much like running race fuel. Ι always thought a direct Methanol injection had also the effect for "washing" any deposits off the cylinders/valves. But if stuff is baked on I am not sure this is applicable.
Do you have a custom tune for 100 oct race gas?
Is there a list of tuners that can custom map the RS4?
Cheers
Nick
Custom map for RS4: try Farnbacher Loles
ELEVENS
04-10-2009, 04:22 PM
Btw although slightly off topic.... I once saw a great thread on here with a pictorial step by step guide on how to remove the amber indicator piece from the front headlights....does anyone have the link as I can't find it??!!
Thanks
Slightly off topic?!
RS4POWER
04-14-2009, 03:05 AM
RI A6,
Were you RI_RS4 once upon a time? Any follow up on your communication with AOA on this matter?
RI A6
04-15-2009, 12:17 PM
Yep, that's me.
Nope, no follow up from AoA. They have been ignoring me for quite some time now.