seems to me, criminals in LA get ahold of full auto anyways, if thats what they want for some activity...

I don t think full auto is a good choice for self defense anyways. but still, its probably very enjoyable to go the range with

deter crime.

for self defense, small caliber like 9mm would be effective. 7.62 full auto FN/FAL might be harder to control.

the scum get the guns no matter what law is in effect.

In my mind I like that it takes training and discipline to hit your target where as a dumb gang banger with full auto has a decent chance by pure pray and spray.

I agree that criminals will get their hands on whatever no matter what the laws, but less supply is better.

And yes I see the hypocrisy in that statement, as by that logic less guns would be better which I dont agree with.

easier to find, spot, notice, plus less likely to hit me.

not to mention they can't afford to buy a full magazine worth of ammo, anyways.

not necessarily any more difficult to spot, most sub machine guns are easy enough to conceal, not to mention auto-pistols. Also most of these undersireable hood rats are wearing everything XXXL.

Plus I think they have a much better chance of hitting you. I lived in a ****ty area for a couple years and no drive by that I heard was more than 6-10 shots (typically about 2-3 seconds). Most of those shots were innacurate enough that they often missed the house they were aiming at. Conversely many auto's can empty 30+ rounds in that time. I'd much prefer them use their ****ty revolvers and pocket pistols.

Lastly as for not being able to afford it, ummm... the drug trade seems fairly lucrative, I think they can afford it.

Full Auto weapons used in crimes is off the chart low. The broad category of "Assault weapons" which includes dozens of different design and types are less than 1%. Full Autos are an even rarer type of Assault style weapon.

regardless of my feelings that any regulation encroaches on the 2nd ammendment.

By having them regulated its much more likely that they stay in good hands.

That being said though the fact that as a normal citizen I can't get myself a P90, even with regulation, is bull****. I can get a vulcan cannon built in the 1960s for a $200 stamp but I can't get a P90 for $1500 plus the same stamp?

the idea was 200 dollars was alot of coin back in the day. Now the tax amount is chicken **** compared to the cost of the gun.

They created this problem in 1986. They good thing for the feds is they make 200 dollars every time a gun is transferred.

I'd rather see a hike in the tax stamp amount and the same extensive background check, but perhaps some leniency on the civilian purchase of class 3 weapons again.

and I consider the people who trained me to be professionals, they will all tell you that there is rarely a need for full auto, especially if you're not a security contractor or soldier.

I see video of Hadjis spraying full auto AK fire all the time but it's our boys that usually win, by delivering tactically efficient shots and conserving ammunition.

$2k G18s for everybody!

the "gang bangers" in detroit and metro detroit, according to the hospitals and police (my customers) show me time and time again the "gang bangers" use cheap, crappy firearms and cheap, crappy ammo and usually silly calibers like 32 and 380

Subguns are very dangerous because they're quite controllable in full automatic fire. heavy belt fed MGs are also dangerous.

I don't think combat rifles are very usuable in full automatic mode. Thats why I have no problems buying semi-automatic only rifles. And I agree with your comment about Ak47s and other battle rifles, but Full Auto Weapons in the right role are dangerous as all hell.

Submachine guns would be a major concern if they were abundant and fell into the wrong hands.

But of course 99.9% of the full auto guns in the US are used for recreational shooting. And Class3 owners specifically want to keep them out of the hands of criminals more than everyone thinks. Probably even more than BATF and politicians.

but I'd really rather have an MP5....

self-defense.

The gubernmmment should setup a sting operation where they "lose" some full auto M-16's and Wolf .223 ammo.

Then try to follow where the guns go. If the criminals tried to use them, they'd pull the trigger *click*... nothing happens =)

For example. You have to look at the current value of the most worthless hunk of class3 weaponry.

That is likely to be a Sten tube gun. They are about 100 dollars for a parts kit and 50 bucks in material for the tube. Actual cost to make is about 150 dollars. So when they sell for 4500 dollars now, You are paying about a 4000 dollar premium for the BATF Form4 paper that goes with the gun.

4000 would be a minimum as there isn't a single class 3 weapon that can be had for less than that.

Even if the fee was 4000, the bottom would fall out of the Class 3 market which would really piss alot of people off. For example. I stated before that a class 3 Bren Gun or BAR is at least 30K dollars. IF a class2 manufacturer was to fabricate new versions of these guns using a parts kit, their cost would be about 2000 dollars or so. With the stamp at 4K, the cost would be 6000 dollars and one could own a fully auto Bren or BAR. That would definately drop the bottom out of the exotic class 3 market.

Keep in mind, all of this would still require the many months waiting time, extensive background check. I would eliminate the Local Sheriff approval requirement, but eliminate the Gun Corp Trust loophole at the same time.

But you've hit on WHY FOPA '86 will likely never be repealed - the very people who SHOULD be in favor of it stand to "lose" serious money and therefore will never support repeal of the law.

they are also hard to get(money and background check and waiting period).

There is a chance that abundant cheap class 3 weapons will break that trend.

Keep in mind the reason behind the registration of class3 was to prevent criminals from getting them, but they didn't become silly expensive til the 86 ban which created a finite number of transferrables. At the time, the 200 dollar tax was very high when it was possible to get quality firearms for less than 100 dollars.

I agree with the 68 registration, I don't agree with the total ban in 86 on new makes. its better than total confiscation, but creates a very strange market. Weirdly enough it typically makes class3 owners and dealers in tight with local law enforcement.

I still think any sort of repeal to 86 would have to have a significant inflation adjusted tax stamp to work as the original bill was intended (which in this case actually worked IMO).

my buddy is a Class 2 and his shop is full of machine guns, he's even got a couple 6 barrel miniguns.

any $ amount would be. Otherwise you'd see a ton more $5 AOWs. It's not the $200, and probably hasn't been since 1934, it's the paperwork.

Before 1968, I think people viewed class3's as gangster weapons and beyond the mainstream. So even though they could buy them, there was no pressing need or desire to do so. Amnesty offered to registration in 68 and alot of people did so, but even then not alot of new purchases. Most of the pre-68 stuff was War Surplus. Civilian guns during that time period were mostly hunting rifles and such. Alot of that changed with the threat of massive numbers of AK47s rolling into the US which would be available for pretty much 500 dollars after the tax for a full auto version.

The 200 dollar tax was also alot more in terms of percentage then than it is now, and that alone was a huge deterrent for most collectors in the 50s and 60s from buying machine guns.

Right now, thats amount is nothing when someone is buying a 5 figure gun. If someones laying out 30K on a weapon, some paperwork and 200 dollar tax stamp is no big deal.

So IMO, if we contemplate opening the flood doors, we need to adjust the tax value for inflation otherwise, we will have 800 dollar AK47s everywhere and 1000 dollar M4s. The premium for a full automatic weapon cannot be 200 dollars if they're commercially available to the public in new form as this will lead to tremendous numbers of cheap newly made full autos which will flood the sytem. That would be unrealistically low and lead to many people having such weapons that cannot store them safely. One thing about class3 shoots right now, is that the people that attend them are generally very affluent well educated individuals. You don't have to worry about people stealing you stuff at a class 3 shoot.

Regardless of how we think, the fact remains that pricing the guns high does keep them out of the hands of criminals and scumbag types. If someone can afford to buy a 5000 dollar gun which is essentially a grown up's toy, they won't go hold up a convenieve store with one. The Background check for a class3 is the same as a regular pistol, there is just a waiting period. I don't know about you, but I just don't think that criteria is good enough for that much firepower. So I'm kinda glad they're expensive.

s, but thats not what I said, I said they can get ahold of them if they want, regardless of anything else,

and thats the truth. The reason they don't use them as often is because they are more expensive (even on the blackmarket) than their semi auto counterparts etc, which do the job fine..

But to say this and that about rates of their usage is not an answer to what I said...that criminals can still get ahold of them if they want---just because they dont use them as often does not mean they are not available, thats an errant speculation.

They simply don't exist. LAPD isn't confiscating machine guns. If they were, I'm sure the liberal media would be eating that up and LAPD would have them in a glass case for the whole world to see. And they'd be crying about banning machine guns..

These imaginary weapons you speak of, simply don't exist. "They can get ahold of them" Based on what facts?

#1 Show me an example of a Full Auto being used in a crime in LA or even confiscated by the LAPD.

#2. If you know of someone who owns a black market Full Auto, You are a felon yourself at that point. So you won't admit to having any first hand knowledge of black market full autos. Which means any statement you make in this matter is heresay or rumors or you are self incriminating yourself.

Crime statistics fully indicate that full auto weapons are not in the hands of criminals AND that they are in fact too hard for them to get.

The problem is cheap ass pistols and crappy cheap semi-auto machine pistols. NOT full autos. In california any hi-cap weapon is typically branded an "Illegal machine gun" and I've seen much press which inaccurately presents data as such......

I'd suggest you keep researching.

I live in LA and when I occastionally do watch the tv news, Ive seen them do the very thing your talking about, they parade on tv what theyve seized, usually on some blanket or table, with all the evil weapons laid out...so its hard for me to swallow when you say:
"They simply don't exist" - I seen it on TV man!! isnt that enough?

LOL? Why don't you google "LA machine gun seized" or something to that effect? There was a big cache just 2 years ago that was seized..
LOL, and you're telling me to research? ...I searched criminal cases in CA with the natural terms, "machine gun" and found 100's of instances in California state courts, plenty of possessions of illegal full auto weapons from 2000-2008.

I guess those guns are just imaginary right? the 200 machine guns in the news story below? Im sure theres more reports, and understand, many many arrests and seizures never hit the news, and many cases are not reported for us to look at via law databases like lexis and westlaw.

I don't know why you so sure about a city you clearly dont live in , that you think you know via a national crime statistic...lol!


You don't seem to understand the difference between weapons not being used, and weapons not being available. They are available, and have been present in various high profile crimes that have erupted in LA thru the 90's to now. Not all this is going to be on the news, you understand that? Many bank robberies for example are deliberately unreported.


Look at what you wrote to me:
"
#1 Show me an example of a Full Auto being used in a crime in LA or even confiscated by the LAPD.

#2. If you know of someone who owns a black market Full Auto, You are a felon yourself at that point. So you won't admit to having any first hand knowledge of black market full autos. Which means any statement you make in this matter is heresay or rumors or you are self incriminating yourself."

First you clearly aren't a lawyer, and your logic is flawed in the above example, or you wouldnt be going over this again...

Look at q #1, you want an example of a full auto weapon used for a crime...do you understand that has NO bearing on whether the gun is available or not? HOw hard is that to grasp!? Sheesh! Do you know were arguing about whether a criminal could potentially buy a full auto gun? Thats what I stated that you are trying to say is not possible...

You're assuming all criminals want full auto weapons .....and thats not correct! Its an assumption that your whole position is based on. Their use in crimes is not indicative of availabillity! Confiscations still are occurring in LA... that means the weapons are there. And that means, through facts, that a criminal can obtain one. Understand the public in LA doesnt care that much about possesion of some crappy mac 11 or a mac 10 thats been converted, thats not always going to make the news.

do you see? If you don't just forget reading anything else because it wont make sense.



Because you have a statistic saying they are not being used in crimes, does not mean they are not available- thats a speculation youre making off those numbers. You said they are reporting LESS confiscations. Do you understand that just makes them POSSIBLY more scarce , so they would cost more? But it in NO way means they aren't available.
Which is all Im saying, look at what I wrote, all I said is a criminal can get one if they want, I didn't say theyd shoot up a market with it, owning one makes you a criminal so its that simple, thats all their is to it.

Do you understand that? theres no statistic youre going to find, that has the number of criminals that wanted full auto weapons, that were not able to get them? LOL, good luck obtaining that data.


You're just assuming, criminals always want full auto weapons...lol, get your hands dirty in the criminal justice system and youll see that theres a big difference between the NEWS, TV, and reality of crime in America...

How would you get a statistic that shows that criminals are unable to purchase full auto weapons? Do you understand what flaw you have in your reasoning? You cannot get into the mind of a criminal ...your assuming they WANT the full auto weapons more than a normal one ALWAYS and therefore there scarcity in usage in crimes and the scarcity (arguable) of confiscations proves that therefore they aren't available..I understand that conclusion, but all Im saying is it doesn't hold up. nothing else.



Have you interviewed criminals? Gang members? Do you know that THEY know having a full auto weapon enhances any crime they are busted for in CA? Or even the US?

Why don't you search on Lexis or Westlaw with the keywords "machine gun" in CA state cases and satisfy your position? PLenty of results about seizures from 2000 to 2008!- I checked.

thats all Im going to say, if you want to keep arguing about some statistics you've read, then have fun , I think your probably old enough to know how far from the truth some conclusions are that can be made using statistics.

if they want them, they can get them period. I could really care about it, either way, I just don't agree with your opinion, I think its based off of data thats not representative of LA, and your conclusions are overbroad.. I'm not gonna say anything else on it.

None of this is personal, so no hard feelings. Lets just get back to the fun stuff!

<ul><li><a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-compton25-2008sep25,0,3441198.story">http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-compton25-2008sep25,0,3441198.story</a</li></ul>