<ul><li><a href="http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_news200712_volkswagen_seven_speed_DSG/">No mention of Audi in the article, but perhaps Audi will get this eventually...</a></li></ul>

I have to reserve judgement until I test drive a DSG equipped car but from all I've rea, it's much closer to a regualr automatic than a manual tranny in terms of driver involvement and pleasure. I will continue to buy sticks only, as long as htey are offered on the type of car I want to drive.

partially. I have a Golf GTI that is DSG equipped now and after about 3 mths my verdict is that DSG is the best semi-auto gearbox there is. However, that doesn't make it the best gearbox. If you drive fast then it is wonderful. Around town in the start/stop situation it is frustrating. It is not so much that it is jerky (actually very smooth, better than a regular auto), but sometimes it can be caught in the wrong gear. Combine that with a turbo engine which sometime you can catch it off boost, you can have some moments which you step on it and nothing happen for a split second and then it break loose. You then have to slam on the brake hard because the gap has closed. Making it tiresome and uncomfortable to drive in traffic. The other problem is that I can never tell which gear I am in unless I look at the dashboard. In a manual I can tell just by touching the gear knob.

I do believe that it is the future of the gearbox but in the current version there is still room for improvement. The advancement from single clutch semi auto to DSG is one big leap already and I am sure it will get better. In terms of driving enjoyment though, it will never get close to a god manual gearbox.

First, the small DSG just announced is for super economy, small displacement Diesel or Gas motors needed in the European Market. At ~$8 per gallon the trend in Europe is smaller cars yet, even for people who can afford to purchase a new car.

That fact is neither here nor there as regards the A4-7 inline DSG. It is just coming in later, and perhaps due to the efforts being made on the smaller end of the scale, where frankly, the demand is certain because of the economy of DSG over both manual and automatic, where the DSG will certainly meld nicely with a European preference for economy over convenience.

The inline DSG needed for everything but the A3 is under development. There are a couple recent improvements to the DSG concept that Audi may be waiting on. That could explain the seeming delay.

The larger, and much more rugged DSG design required for the larger Ax series has some interesting problems not incounterd with the lower mass parts of the smaller units.

Until now, DSG have been shifted with something resembling standard shifter rails and individual solenoids (3 of them), and have used a pair of classic motorcycle type multi-plate, oil bath clutches.

Both of these original solutions have their problems with high torque applications, not that they cannot be overcome, but that their solutions thus far had resulted in disproportionally heavy and/or expensive designs.

Needless to say these issues are being or have been resolved, but getting the larger, more highly stressed DSG units to production has seen some delays.

This URL:
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/01/10-audi-roadjet-concept/audi-roadjet-concept.php

shows cut away of an Audi inline DSG unit under development.

==m==
Mike

I recall an announcement stating Borg Warner as the manufacturer with availability scheduled in the second quarter of MY08. Our MY06 VW Jetta diesel has the DSG gearbox and I'd say it's a hit. I like the combo as the manual-like efficiency is a good fit for the modest hp (90), yet high torque diesel. When driving the torque curve of the diesel, the DSG shifts swiftly and decisively. Bring on the 3.0TDI w/7sp DSG, go ahead AoA I dare ya! Risk being a leader in the marketplace.

The standing starts and slow speed behavior of the DSG reminds me in an odd way of the 1970-80's Mercedes automatics. If you planted your foot at the green it would lurch forward. If you eased into the gas it was smooth as glass. If you kept your foot down it would make these really odd shifts, while if you actively lifted your foot, it would shift firmly and in a predictable manner.

It was simply a matter of adapting to its behavior. Although quite different in behavour, the DSG is sort of that way when driving slowly. There are certain inputs one should not make when driving in automatic mode.

My feeling is that it is best, when needing a gear, to call it up with the paddles. You are now in manual mode for the moment and have complete control. But, just like a manual, one must be proactive, one must anticipate. It is after all, a solid hookup. It can be made to klunk, as we all well know!

I think you are correct that this will become better and better with each refinement in control programs, clutch technology and so on.

==m==
Mike

Many automatic transmissions have the efficiency robbing torque converter, a (dual) manual gearbox like the Direct Shift Gearbox (DGS) does not.
In operation the DSG conceals it's manual gearbox origins, presenting itself as an automatic. (without the traditional inefficiency's) The DSG attempts (effectively) to enhance the automatic gearbox experience.

The automatic transmission has gotten better!
Great taste, no less filling, No great taste.....

The DSG will always have two gears in play at any one time due to to the configuration. So if you're shifting from 1st to 2nd, 2nd will already be ready to transmit the power instantaneously.

I'm intrigued as to what the driver experience will bring when a DSG is fitted to a high powered sports car. I mean, it's not a pedestrian sedan like my VW diesel. I'd suppose the fitment in the sportive GTI/A3/TT etc., is a glimpse of what's to come. Many of the GTI owners indicate they like the DSG best when driving the torque of the 2.0t. The shifts as you can believe are fast... allthough another electronic Big Brother..?? Time will tell. Go Porsche 997tt....

6-speed manual more involving? Blah! If a clutch-pedal manual transmission car was used in Formula 1, that car would be the slowest on the grid.

I'm glad that the car manufacturers are looking into ways of replacing the typical "clutch pedal" Manuals. Manually operated clutches represents days gone by IMO. Kind of like the "chokes" of yesteryear. I've owned manual transmission cars since 1988. I'm ready for technology to handle the clutchwork. A computer can handle the clutch better than any driver.

All the top racing series use a similar tranny: F1, ALMS, etc..

"I'm intrigued as to what the driver experience will bring when a DSG is fitted to a high powered sports car. "

- The most powerful sports car ever mass produced has a DSG transmission. That would be the Buggati Veyron. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the Veyron's transmission.

I hate DSG

I prefer a manual for enjoyment. Sure the no-lift shift automatic boxes are faster for F1, ChampCar, etc. For most of us, the purpose of our street car is not strictly to have the fastest one on the "home to work" circuit. There is a certain pleasure in making a smooth shift, and in the mechanicalness of it. The first impression I had from my first Audi was that it was a finely machined tool, much different than a typical US car. That is the feeling that manual drivers appreciate. Unfortunately, most of us drive in traffic conditions that can make that exerience much less enjoyable on a daily basis.

The DSG is basically a better automatic. It shifts quicker, has less power loss. The tip works fine for the manu-matic process, but is inefficient and complicated.

"I hate DSG"

- Why?

"The DSG is basically a better automatic. It shifts quicker, has less power loss. The tip works fine for the manu-matic process, but is inefficient and complicated."

- That isn't true. The DSG is a better manual. Remember, Automatic Transmissions have Torque converters and they don't have a clutch. The DSG transmission is the exact opposite. DSG contains parts only found in true manual transmissions. The DSG resembles a true manual more so than any other transmission type.

Also, How are the DSG transmission inefficent? And in regards to being complicated, most parts of an automotive engine are complicated. Have you ever seen a disassebled transmission. And I do beleive that the DSG has less parts than an Standard Automatic transmission.

DSG will never give the same experience as using a third pedal. But, it blows the Tip away with its responsiveness and flexibility. I know, since we have both.

But if you're a die-hard third pedal person, the advantages of DSG over Tip would be lost on you.

but I like the feel of a clutch and the gear shift for normal driving as well of emergency maneuvers.
I like how I can slip the clutch when necessary and I keep my hands on the wheel without trying to fell for the paddles

I also like to slip the clutch (mostly at intersections to back up a little) but after 10 years of driving a car with a stick, I'm ready for something else. Something else other than a standard automatic. Standard Automatics are still not as responsive as I would like them to be. I like the Idea of shifting your own gears but the whole push-in-the-clutch with your leg to get it done, seems a little odd in this day and age IMO.

You also say that would rather keep your hands on the wheel and not have to feel for the paddles. But dont you have to take your hand completely off the wheel to shift a gear in a manual?

Driving is fun for me with or without using your leg to assist in gear shifting IMO. And to be honest, I'd rather use my left foot for braking. I own a Motorcycle and there is know way that I would want a bike without a clutch. So I indeed understand the merits of having a clutch. It just seems a little trivial to have to push in a clutch with your leg to get the shifting done.

I was born in 1966 so I'm not sure if the video game analogy applies to me. I grew up when cars had chokes (just caught the tail end), bias-ply tires, inner tubes, no anti-lock brakes, No traction control, Points (for timing), Carburetors. I am as old school as you can get, while at the same time I love technology. If there is a better way to get things done, I'm all for it.

when a car has a clutch. I want to shoot myself when driving automatics, whether they are tip, shift paddles, whatever, still boring.

Race cars are a bit different when you are going 200MPG you got plenty of things to keep your attention, like avoiding barreling head first into that wall.

But at a pedestrian 60MPH, autos, dsg, whatever bore me to death.

500nm of torque and 700nm of torque respectively.

7 speed already.

They are using a single clutch semi-auto gearbox. I don't think any current racing team is using a double clutch gearbox.

I saw a comparison done on Fifth Gear about two TTs. One manual the other DSG. The DSG clearly won. I will try and find the link, I found it very interesting. The lady driving was very pleased with the DSG from memory saying that it was extreamly smooth, responsive and there was no loss of power between shifts.

It would be good if they offered this on the B8. A B8-A4 3.0TDI with DSG would be good. Or, if I could afford it a B8 S4 with DSG.

Is the new TT-S comming with DSG? In some ways that may be even better seeing as I could probably get around without back seats and the car is cheaper. Still the S4 would be a dream come true.

Racing gearbox design has either a four or six cog wheel or 'dog-clutch' side gears instead of road car syncho cones and multiple teeth. The mass of the cog-ring is about 1/3 that of a standard synchromesh hub and the engagement is instantaneous.

A second feature of most "manu-matic" boxes is a single swash plate gear selection wheel instead of the traditional shift gate. Thus, in a manual racing gearbox, instead of an H-type pattern, the lever is a simple push pull affair. When automated this rotating plate only requires a single solenoid for operation, instead of the three-solenoid operation needed when automating a road car type gearbox.

The service life of these systems is measured in thousands of miles at best. Other design criteria, such as smooth take-up and seamless shift, are also not present. So it is, like the manual racing gearbox use previously, a `horse of a different colour'.

==m==
Mike

the tiptronic is inefficient and complicated, not the DSG. Actually, the DSG timing programing is apparently on the complicated side, as the trans temporarily has two gears actuated at the same time, with the release of one and selection of the other close enough in timing as to not detonate.

And, although the actuation of the DSG is manual in nature, it IS an automatic transmission. It will select gears by itself unless you override it into manual mode. It may act in an automatic manner by using different design, but it IS still automatically shifting for you.

BTW, a very early Ferrari auto-manual trans (early 90's I think) used an actual manual trans with no shift lever. There were actuators that shifted gears the same way a lever would.

"But at a pedestrian 60MPH, autos, dsg, whatever bore me to death."

- Not to start an argument but at a pedestrian 60MPH there isn't any difference between a Manual or an Automatic/DSG whatever. They will all be equally boring because at that point (steady 60mph) You will only be in the top gear. How can a manual provide more fun in that situation?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to manually control clutch engagement. I'm all for it. I'm also all for Computer operated clutches. I know how to left-foot brake. So my left foot will never get bored :-)

you cannot comment. I had a 5 spd B6A4 1.8T, TWO B5S4's with 6 spd and JUST bought a 2.0T DSG GTI...which is the EXACT same engine, tranny, frame as the A3. Guess what...6 spd ANY DAY. When cold the DSG is VERY VERY rough. It CANNOT handle power upgrades past a certain point. And honestly, you don't feel one with the car. And on sharp turns you can't use the paddle shifters(ie Corkscrew at Laguna would make it VERY hard to upshift/downshift, same with Andretti hairpin...yes I've driven Laguna). So honestly...it is VERY different and will never buy another DSG car. Especially if it's any kind of performance car. It's OK in the GTI as it's just my commuter car. And if it's the womans car...that's ok too.

he said they're gonna have a lot of work replacing the twin clutches in that thing. imo i would take the manual, and same with the SA i talked to. he said he'll probably see them before 50k needing clutches. with how much the audi dealerships charge to replace one clutch in an a4, i dont wanna know how many thousands of $$$ itd be for that.
F1 doesnt have to worry about every day reliability, just ask an F1 team how many clutches they go through a race season. and how many miles they get. but as automatics go, i'd take a dsg over a convetional auto anyday, but i'd rather keep my left leg busy and shift gears myself, its just more involving, i feel attached to the car, and its assloads faster that the similiarly equipped tiptronic models (having owned and driven b6 tips and 5-speed, and currently owning a b7 6-speed, and have driving the b7 6-speed tips.)

I thought that computer operated clutches wear less then Human Operated Clutches? Oh well.

I'd still get a DSG equipped car but only on a leased warrantied car.