With Audi coming in stride with so many new vehicles, I guess I'm still wondering why the company that "Never Follows" doesn't step up to the overall comparison of other mfgs. such as Infiniti, BMW, Acura, Mazda, MB all which have 4 and 6 cylinders offering more bang for the buck.
The 2.0 should be a 2.2 producing 250 HP for this kind of money.
The 3.2 should be producing 285-300 HP to stay competitive with others in the performance category. Don't forget, this engine will be last in comparison performance tests against the 335i, G37, IS350 and some MB and Caddys. If needed, then make it a 3.5L

Now, the 3.0 diesel sounds great. But it also sounds as if it will be very expensive and is taking a long time to get here.
As far as the new S4 3.0 twin turbo.
Better fuel economy then previous V8. Lower weight, higher torque, Vectoring Quattro system leaves for an all around car. Leave stock and it runs great, but just a chip and exhaust could push this to 400 HP that would offer more torque and better performance, (straight line and track times) then the current RS4 which has peak power over 7000 RPM and weights in at almost 4000lbs.

Now, I know some of you love the V8 and that's great. But in the world where fuel prices are going higher and V8 sales are down, (reports from the automotive industry including Audi) a forced induction engine offers better efficiency, torque and an easier, less expensive way to "custom tune" one's car, (plus lower weight).
Personally, if they keep the price at bay, the new S4 could offer the best of all worlds; Performance, tuneability and economy. But for now, the 3.0 TDI seems to be the clear winner.

maybe the S4 will compete with the 335i in the future. Because an Audi 330 HP bi-turbo engine would be a better match against BMW's 335i 305 HP engine.

If that is Audi's intention, than I would hope the price of the S4 becomes competive against BMW's 335i.

the 3.0 tt motor only reinforces the fact that the S4 is meant to be a direct (marketing) competitor to the 335. HELLO?!


btw, I can't imagine that stomping on a 3 liter, twin turbo, 330 hp, awd, 4000 lb car is going to be anything near fuel efficient. not that someone buying this car would really care about a few mpg's difference between this rod and the V8. it's gotta be all about engine type preference here; turbo whoosh (and modability) vs. V8 grunt! hmm, wonder what mpg's a modded 3.0 twin turbo would get? 13?

I agree wholeheartedly about the 3.2 not being competitive. Hell, the 3-year old Passat 3.6 V6 engine makes more hp and torque than this yet-to-be released A4. This just doesn't sit well with me.

Unless Audi lowers pricing on the new S4 to align it against the 335i, I would say your argment fails.

The B7 3.2 quattro is barely less expensive than the RWD 335i (I live in SoCal and refuse to compare Audi models against BMW xi models) and I expect the B8 pricing to only go up, so the 265-hp A4 3.2 will compete head on against the 335i as far as pricing goes.

My 1.8t with no cat, free flow exhaust GT28rs and many other mods producing over 315 HP gets 30 mpg cruising. The average of the V8 is 17 mpg. the average of the 3.0 TT is 20, (per the article).
No reason one can't expand this even higher, (performance and mileage). Just depends on your right foot...

since you refuse to compare the quattro with the xi then your argument fails. I don't care if you live in SoCal or the moon. If quattro means little more to you then a snow bunny car then you just don't understand, and quite frankly, you should buy something else. If Audi quality means nothing to you, buy something else. If wanting to save a few thou on a $45K+ car (yes, a properly optioned 335xi sedan gets you at least there) and you don't mind being yet another BMW 3-series car in SoCal, go for it. This is what Audi means when it says, "Never follow"; it's not about horsepower p!ssing contests!

No matter what you or anyone else here says, the 335 is not a competitor to the A4 3.2!

but who mods to 315hp just to putt around on the hwy all day at 2000 rpm's. Even Granny's going to punch it enough to keep it around 20 mpg? Right?

This is why I am leaning towards the 3.0 diesel, (as I drive a lot for work) and the S4 as fun as this will be, isn't practicle for my personal needs.
Audi does charge a premium for their cars. If a loaded 335i prices at $45k then the S4 could come in at $48-52 loaded and hit their mark. Again, IMO.

If there's any reflection on how the new S5 is priced and compared to the 335xi coupe, the S5 is just a few thousand more than the BMW, while the S5 does have some options included that aren't found in the BMW.

In the end, I think the prices are going to get a bit closer to each other, give or take a bit whether it's $$$ or options.

Plus with the S5 coming in at $65K CDN and the current S4 at $70K CDN, with both similarly equipped, would be nice it the next S4 pricing is lower.

your modding can improve your overall fuel mileage.
As mentioned, it depends on your right foot.

As for the A4 3.2 not being in competition with the 335i- You will have to argue with the many magazines that will be using this as a comparison, (Just look at the latest Automobile Magazine) as they made a reference to this point already. Quote, "We have yet to conduct the ultimate three-car showdown starring the BMW 335I, the MB C350 and the new Audi A4 3.2FSI..."
If one 335i takes the sale of an A4 3.2, then it is competition.
However, I do understand your point as it's all not about HP. And to this I agree. I would also say that HP, torque, 0-60 and 1/4 mile times give us a reference to what a car will do compared to another in the same or similar price category.
IF, Audi built the 3.2 with 285-300 HP it may still not be the fastest but a least be more competitive with the other mfgs. going after our dollars.
Not everyone cares about HP; true, but wouldn't it be nice if Audi did produce this motor with 300 HP. Then this conversation wouldn't take place.

every mag in Europe is comparing the S5 with the 335 coupe. When the new S4 comes out, it will be compared to the 335i sedan (though should be xi). The US mags are really reaching by putting the 3.2 A4 in that comparison. It's silly for Automobile to suggest that there's a fair performance comparison between a twin turbo 3 liter, a bigger displacement 3.5 and the 3.2. The B8 3.2 can only win here with value for $.

The 3.2 with 300hp means turbos. That motor is coming as the 3.0 twin turbo in the new S4. What naturally aspirated 6 cyl gets 300+ hp other then the $50K+ E46 M3? For a fair comparison, compare the E46 328xi to the B7 A4 3.2. It's really that simple.

apples and oranges are competitors if all you want is a piece of fruit ;)

another choice at the time. The S4 will not be available yet so it leaves those available to duke it out. If the comparisons are fair, then they will look at each car for what it is, (this sides with your thoughts) as BMW's performance category, MB with comfort and Audi with their technology.
As for 300 HP, it doesn't matter if it's 3.2 or 3.7 Audi decided to put one of the lowest HP ratings out for this class and will live with the marginal performance ratings, (Hp and torque). Yes, it's that simple.
It's a dollar for dollar comparison.

<ul><li><a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/a4b8/msgs/2506.phtml">.</a></li></ul>

The numbers don't lie.

The people that get bashed are the ones that imply that the HP numbers are the overriding reason why NOT to choose an Audi, like HP is the *most* important factor to consider and "Audi sucks" because of it.

To portray this any differently is a little dishonest.

nice try, dollar for dollar applies to Accords vs. Camry's. I have to expect that premium Eurpoean car buyers are a bit more discerning in their approach. Besides, isn't the A4 3.2 less expensive then the 335i? But really, who buys a 3.2 without acknowledging the added value that quattro gives them over a rwd 3-series?

Here's a question for you, does the average A4 and 3 series customer (not in SoCal) give more value to the quattro (awd) system or to the additional 35 hp in the 335? Now I'm not talking about our resident racer boys here, I'm talking about good ole Joe and Jane professional looking for a do everything Euro sports sedan?

Now I'm just entertaining you here, I still don't buy the A4 3.2 vs. 335i comparison. What the US magazine's choose to compare means really nothing in the grand scheme of things.

you plopped that up there while I was writing mine. nice reply to your own post ;)

the 3.2 obviously competes very well with the 328xi!

now you'll take a heavy tranverse mounted 3.6 Passat POS boat over the 3.2 A4, why....because it has more power? hilarious! The Passat can't even win a comparison against a V6 Accord :D

As far as price/performance is concerned, the 3.2Q is made to compete with the 330i. I don't know what you guys in the US are getting the car for but over here the 330i/3.2Q prices are closely matched. When you look at the performance figure they are within 0.1s for the 0-62mph dash.

Do I hear people complain that the 330i is slow? No, because it's a BMW, and we all know that even a 318i will be faster than a RS4.

As for comparisons, one can compare any car they want against the 3.2. I stated my opinion and you have yours. There is no mention of the G35 or G37 or the IS350, just the 335i. So, if you compare to a 330i you'll have closer performance results. To a G37, (which is about 8k less then a 335i) or 335i performance results will be lacking. But people will compare to whatever car they are interested in and so will automotive magazines.

What about the 2.0? Would you have liked to have seen at least a 2.2 with more power. 3650lbs is a lot to move for 211 HP. A loaded 2.0 will cost what a 330 HP G37 will.
This is why I liked the 3.0 TDI. HP and torque with fuel mileage. I understand it runs to 60 in 5.9 sec or a little quicker then the 3.2 while getting 40 mpg cruising.
Anyone have any idea of what the cost of the 3.0 will be? I was thinking in line with 3.2 but not sure after reading article. Interesting fact, 80% of Q7's sold in Europe have the 3.0 TDI. The article on the A5 stated how well this engine performed and a lot of driving was left in 3rd gear as trq. was produced from around 1500-3500 rpm.

but if you go ask the product planner of Audi, they will tell you that the 3.2 is intended to take on the 330i, and not the 335i. Don't forget that the 335i was also introduced later in the product cycle. The 330i was the top 3 series for awhile. Same thing that the 3.2 will be the top A4 until the S4 arrives later.

To me (or most Audi enthusiasts), the strategy is quite clearly. The 1.8T is up against 320i while the 2.0T later will take on the 325i. 3.2Q is for 330i and S4 is for 335i. Later in the product cycle, the RS4 will take on the M3. This is how it works out and pretty simple.

I am also dying for a diesel as well and I believe that the 3.0TDI will be the best real world engine. Hopefully the legislators in my country come wake up and start letting diesel passenger car in sooner.

Audi's engine line up and said the 3.2 will not be competitive in the performance category against Infiniti G37, IS350, 335i some MB and Caddy's. No one mentions anything else but the 335i. Since it will be the first car out, it will be compared against many cars, including the 335i. Then, when the S4 comes out, they can compare those.

Now, as far as the diesel. I've been saying it's going to be the hottest engine going as there is so much power down under 3300 RPM. This is more to my point- 300 HP and lots of torque while getting great fuel economy with an engine that will last many hundreds of thousands of miles, (and doesn't have coilpacks)!

since forum is mostly visited by Americans, your point is 100% valid. I would do the same if I would live in USA without any hesitation - buy S4 and forget about regular A4 - price difference is not that much. In Europe we have prices sometimes twice bigger than in the US - price in Euro often higher than price in dollars in the US (I mean - without conversion, just comparing numbers, like $56K and Euro 60K, note 1.46 conversion ratio).

Ukraine should join WTO (hopefully this year), after which custom barriers for cars should be dropped by about 15-20%, especially with big engines. If this will happen, I consider buying S4 rathen than A4 - I see no sense buying 2.8/3.2 if I can buy 3.0 bi-turbo.

So I completely understand your point. I feel many of the new cars are expensive, (not just Audi).
When cars are available, I will look at the 3.0 TDI and the S4. Personally, I am excited about the TDI, it seems it will offer great longevity, performance and economy, (both costs and fuel mileage).

I've even read that in one of the comparisons. The S5 is at a serious price disadvantage when compared to the 335. The A5 falls more in line with the 335's price, but falls pitifully below the 335's performance.

I don't think it's a good idea for Audi to aspire to match the performance of a discontinued 2006 model with a brand new 2009 model.

As soon as it comes out in the U.S. market it will be tested against the G35, IS350, C350, and 335i. I predict that it will come in below mid-pack.

330i continues to sell along side with the 335i for the rest of the world. So the comparison is valid

Its funny how he (spoonie) has been saying the same things as he has here on the A5/S5 forums for as long as they have been up, but as soon as people took delivery of the cars and experienced them they told him off because all he really does is say their performance is bad. He's pretty much been ostracised from that forum and I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens on this forum in time.

True the 3.2L engine isn't the most amazing engine in the worls, but maybe with the torque vectoring etc and the 3.0L TDI engine added to the lineup things may change.

It probaly is fair to be unhappy with the choices available in the US, from everything that I've ever heard the people in charge arn't really taking good care of the brand. e.g. not bringing in the RS6, not bringing in the 3.0L TDI or any other TDI models (I know that is partly due to restrictions but they could and should have done more about that earlier on).

I'm just glad where I am that we get everything the same as the European models, including no amber side reflectors in the headlights or anything else.

Hopefully in the future things will change but at present the best you can do is the 3.2L V6. I think the best car for you (spoonie) would be the 335i. It has everything that you are interested in e.g. price, performance etc. I really don't understand why you don't just get it. Its a good car.

If it was me I think I'd wait for that B8 S4 though and see if the price drops from having the bi-turbo engine, that would then really be a dream come true.

I'm not the only person complaining about Audi bringing up the rear in regards to 2.0t and 3.2l engine power output. It's just that I'm the only person that isn't allowed to complain about it here.

As long as Audi are selling cars at a premium, with engines that are weaker than the competing cars that don't carry a premium, People are going to complain about it. Just like the starter of this thread.

Rather than "ignoring" I think that some people should acknowledge the fact that the Audi A4 offers the weakest engine in its class, while at the same time the A4 is one of the most expensive cars in its class. The A4 is the worse value out of all the cars it competes against. Combine that with high lease rates and mediocre resale value and you have a car that isn't going to have anyone going crazy. A nice interior and Quattro can only take you so far IMO.

I'm still waiting on the S4 but I believe that the S4 will be priced much higher than the 335. I also want my next car to have a DSG type transmission.

What does that leave for me? Well, we won't see any DSG Audi for about another 4 years IMO. The S4 will be too expensive anyway, and the standard A4s have weak engines. I'll either get an EVO MR, or wait for Audi to offer an A4 that doesn't have the weakest engine in its class. That might not happen. Audi appears to be set on keeping the A4 at the rear in regards to engine power output. "Never Follow' or should that be 'Never Lead'.

I use to read Hot Rod magazine and compare horsepower figures between Mustangs and Camaros ;)

1) I don't like the interior

2) I don't like the fact that the 335 doesn't come with an LSD

3) I don't like the run-flat tires that BMW forces on to its customers

4) I'm not too big on the exterior. It's nice but not outstanding.

5) No engine Oil dipstick

6) The engine normally runs on the hot side.

7) Stereos could be better and is missing features.

Nice handling and a powerfull engine can only take you so far IMO.

When I was a kid I read Car &amp; Driver, Road &amp; Track, and Motor-Trend magazine. I compared cars as a whole just like I do now. When a car has a deficiency I noted that deficiency.

Was someone talking to you?

"330i continues to sell along side with the 335i for the rest of the world. So the comparison is valid"

-Yeah, but that 330i that is still being sold puts out 272hp and out performs all A4s.

"Was someone talking to you?"

- You don't have to be. This is an internet message board. Responses are allowed. If you don't want anyone to respond to your replies then I think you should take it to E-mail

I forgot to put this: :-p

No one is "right" or "wrong" as this car has not even made it here to the states yet. My comments were somewhat based on the past. I did not single out the 3.2 only and I did not single out the 335i.
Some feel it will compete with other mfgs. and others don't.
I have been driving for 31 years, (that's right I'm old) and have been building and racing cars off and on for a lot of years. Power/performance is an interest to me, others it's much less important. In a funny way, everyone is right as we are all consumers that value certain aspects. Many times I did not comment to someone's remarks as that is there opinion and stand and I appreciate that, not argue with it. I think we all value the Audi's as a car. Some of us would like a little more power then what Audi offers while others are pleased with what is offered. Bottom line is it's all good. There has been 520 people that have read this post.

So- a friendly debate and lots of good comments.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving and be blessed we can at least consider buying a new A4!

From BMW official figure:

330i 272hp, 0-100km/h in 6.2s(manual) 6.6s(auto)

A4 3.2Q 265hp, 0-100km/h in 6.1s(manual)

I wonder who is outperforming who now. You should check the facts before speaking (or typing). BMW is not the only car you know.

Im just interpreting what you having been saying in all of your posts, which is that the current B8 A4 does't have as much power as the 335i which is what you want, more power.

The 335i coupe is a fairly nice looking car from the exterior, much better than the sedan anyway.

I just think that it would still be the most logical choice for you to make based off what you have been saying at this moment. It might be good to wait and see what the S4 has to offer, but it depends on how long your willing to wait, no one knows how long the S4 will take to come out.

And also, if you have no real liking of the brand 'Audi' then its not worth it. If you don't care much for design and interior etc its pointless. Its ok not to care as well, everyone values certain things more than others. Some will care more about the interior/design etc others performance. Your priority seems to be performance which would lead to the 335i for its price etc package.

Thats what I think anyway. If I had to I'd rather a better interior and a bit less performance. Hopefully the S4 can offer the best of both worlds with this though.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Shouldn't be taken seriously.

"Im just interpreting what you having been saying in all of your posts, which is that the current B8 A4 does't have as much power as the 335i which is what you want, more power."

- Not a good interpretation. I want more power but I don't want a 335. I do want the A4 to have more power. Is there something wrong with wanting the A4 to have more power? It's the weakest car in its class!


"The 335i coupe is a fairly nice looking car from the exterior, much better than the sedan anyway."

- I agree, but it will take more than that to talk me into getting a 335:-)


I just think that it would still be the most logical choice for you to make based off what you have been saying at this moment. It might be good to wait and see what the S4 has to offer, but it depends on how long your willing to wait, no one knows how long the S4 will take to come out.

- The 335 might seem to be the most logical choice, but the car has too many unforgivable offenses for me to even consider getting one.


"And also, if you have no real liking of the brand 'Audi' then its not worth it. If you don't care much for design and interior etc its pointless. Its ok not to care as well, everyone values certain things more than others. Some will care more about the interior/design etc others performance. Your priority seems to be performance which would lead to the 335i for its price etc package."

- You are really trying hard to talk me into the 335. I got to give it to you. I do care about a vehicle's design and the interior. I'm just not willing to put up with an underpowered engine just to be able to enjoy that nice interior. The opposite can be said about the 335; I love the 335's power and performance but I cannot deal with the interior (and the other reasons I mentioned). The A4 and the 335 both have serious flaws imo. Choosing between the 2 would involve picking the vehicle that has the least faults.

- I like the brand Audi. But I'm quick to fall out of love with a brand if they start pushing out products that contain parts or features that are lagging behind the competition. That's the problem with brand loyalty. When you stick with a particular brand, you end up accepting whatever they give you. That's why I cannot be loyal to any specific brand. Whichever brand that has the best products available, that's the brand that I'll like.


"Thats what I think anyway. If I had to I'd rather a better interior and a bit less performance. Hopefully the S4 can offer the best of both worlds with this though."

- The S4 will probably perform at the level that I'm looking for but it will be at a price premium. That's the issue that I have with Audi. Gone are the days of the V6 BiTurbo S4 costing $41,000 (about the same as the competing 330i at the time). The V6 Bi-Turbo S4 cost about the same price as the 330i while offering performance close to the M3. Things have changed.

but it's ok. You can keep your BMW and go to the BMW board.

So pretty much you shouldn't be "taken seriously". Thats your words.

I think what he's trying to say is that he can't afford a B8 S4 and he's really pissed b/c he wants an A4 with 335i performance. Anyway it's pointless b/c he's not buying for a few more years. Hey maybe you should just keep modding your 330i? Makes perfect sense to me.

... posts here. Or speculation on the S4 etc, I havn't heard much talk about that, but I'm really interested in that.

Or what about a post to discuss something like the Audi exclusive options.

One of my friends showed me a brochure he had recently recieved for the Q7 and in the back it had some pictures of Audi exclusive customisations.

They looked amazing and even though they costed more I think it would be worth it. Can you get things like that on Mercedes and BMW? Just curious.

It is true that both cars have serious flaws. You just have to choose whats better for you. I think for me, Im in the city so the extra performance of the 335i might be wasted, so I go to the A4 which has less, but also has a nicer interior. 3.0L TDI would be my pick as I've said before, but you can't get that engine for some time where you are so its kind of out of the question, which is a shame.

Lets just hope with the S4 though. Surley the price should go down from what its at now. Even a little bit would be worth it, that car seems as though its going to have some interesting features. But then theres the price thats the problem.

No matter what thers always a down point with all these cars. You just have to get the one that suits your prefeences best.

I'm hoping for the S4, but thats going to be expensive, so that will be its major downpoint. But if it is great it should be worth it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine how the B8 3.2 A4 will perform. Just because the vehicle hasn't been tested yet, doesn't mean that it will out perform a 335i. Or are you suggesting that a miracle is going to happen? Because its going to take a miracle for the A4 3.2 to even come close to the 335i's performance.

Look at it this way. The New B8 A4 has 10more hp and weighs about 150lbs less than the B7 A4. The gearing is also the same. Based on that information, it isn't hard to see that the B8 A4 will not perform significantly better than the B7 A4. The 335 does perform significantly better than the B7 A4.

"but it's ok. You can keep your BMW and go to the BMW board."

- Listen to this. I don't like BMW anymore. So why should I go to the BMW board? I like Audi. So you are going to have to deal with me:-)

"I think what he's trying to say is that he can't afford a B8 S4"

- How do you know what I can afford? Once a person switches the subject from cars to a person's personal finances (in an effort to insult). That tells me plenty about that person.

What does it all MEAN Basil? &lt;/austinpowers&gt;

It would be interesting to talk about other things besides the engine. Thats pretty much all that everyones talking about on the entire forum.

It would be good to discuss Audi Exclusive options etc don't you think? The thing is that there are no photes yet unfortunately which does make it hard.

The 335i competes with the S4, this is the case in my country anyway where the 335i (with a few options on it) is more than $20,000 than the 3.2L A4.

Its closer to the S4 in price but still less, but then performance is also less, considerably.

The problem is that the models don't match up price for price but I would consider the

S4 - 335i

3.2L/3.0LTDI - 325i.

Thats how I see it, and how it works where I am.

"It would be interesting to talk about other things besides the engine. Thats pretty much all that everyones talking about on the entire forum."

- There's a reason for that. Look at the BMW boards. You will not see a single post from anyone complaining about the 335's power. Audi left itself open for this sort of discussion because Audi believes that a real nice interior and exterior design will make up for the weak bottom-of-the-pack engines that they seem to give the non "S" models. When/if Audi ever gets competitive with engine power, then you will start to see the power complaint posts decrease. But I doubt it. Audi seems content to bring up the rear in the engine dept.


"It would be good to discuss Audi Exclusive options etc don't you think? The thing is that there are no photes yet unfortunately which does make it hard."

- That would be good, the more info the better.

It would be great if an S4 competed with an M3, but it doesn't anymore. Its not going to happen either. Now you have to pay more for an RS4. The only way that I can see around this dillema is to save up as much as I possibly can and see how things go. Thats really all any of us can do because theres no concrete facts about the B8 S4, RS4 etc.

I've heard one person talk about the 3.0L TDI engine (my favorite A model engine) in a thread. The problem is we won't be hearing much discussion of this engine because I think, that the majority of the people on this forum are living in the US where it isn't available. The person who posted about the TDI lives in Europe I believe. I don't agree that the 3.2L V6 is as bad as people are saying it is here. Looking at performance figures (which are probably slightly better in real life as with other cars) it isn't bad at all. But the 3.0L TDI is much better in my opinion, and from the other person who drove it. He said it was really great and really powerful, the thing thats good about this as well is that it would be getting excellent fuel consumption figures at the same time. I also read an article talking about diesels in Europe and it said that once people make the switch to it they generally don't go back to petrol.

In all honesty, for some reason I would prefer a petrol engine e.g the apparent B8 S4 engine but the 3.0L TDI might out do it with its exceptional fuel consumption. Who knows, the S4 engine isn't available for testing.

Thats my opinion about the A model engines anyway, and I don't think anyone would be dissapointed by the 3.0L TDI. From what I've read anyway.

But rather than admit defeat, they're moving the category (and with that, price) to the RS4 category.

The RS cars were limited production, the top of the line 4 model, was an RS-4, they did this in order to see if the market supported it, also, the original RS cars, B5 RS 4, etc were hand built and in quantities of less than 200 or might have been 600 or 900 I believe originally. As #1 Quattro GMBH their performance arm, I don't think had the production capability to meet up with large demand, and still provide support for Audi's racing arm which is what they were formed for originally.
As they produce all the R,RS cars.

Audi, beginning in the mid 90's, made huge strides especially in the U.S. after 60 minutes, came up with a totally bogus and erroneous report that Audi's accelerated on their own, when the fact of the matter, was U.S. drivers don't do heal-toe driving with manuals, and subsequently confused the gas and brake pedal. Anyway, long story short, Audi was on up and up, and before introducing a true M3 and later M5 competitors they needed to make sure they could sell them, and ramp up production.

Audi, is spending over the next few years $15 billion improving capacity and introducing some 15 new models, to match, BMW and Mercedes model depth one of the reason why BMW and Mercedes have larger revenue streams especially in number of cars that are more premium, like the M3, although in Europe Audi actually outsells them, also true of China.

In that strategy the RS cars have become the top of line models, and they've introduced cars like R8, and R8 v10 later 2008, as well as Q7,Q5. And the MLP design not only moves the engine 6 inches farther back, creating that 50-50 ration in B8 A4, and A5, but it allows them to introduce and put together new models quicker.

But back to the RS cars being top of the line, this moved S cars down market, more over RS or more main stream production , still fairly limited, but each model series will have an RS car produced 2 years after the model is introduced, where as before Audi only produced 1 RS model at a time, and also it was at end of life of model generation and skipped some generations. This is why the RS 4/5 are slated to compete with the M3 Sedan/ M3 Coupe. Also, the increased production will reduce the cost of RS cars slightly, not significantly, they will still command a premium.

Audi didn't drop the ball, they did the smart thing, the RS cars are fantastic, and now that they have the capacity to produce in great numbers, why wouldn't they? It makes them more money and makes Audi customers happier.

Personally, what difference does it make whether an M3 car competitor had an S badge or RS badge, the point was Audi was going to produce a car that was going to outperform/engineer the M3, it made alto more sense to take and make the RS branding the most elite and extreme of Audi peformance as it already was. I personally, don't get what difference if you slapped an S badge on it or and RS badge on it, make no mistake, in the end the point is to produce a better car than the M3, call it what you want. Either that wa going to be done buy increasing price and performance of S4/S5 or increasing production and making regular production of the RS-4/RS-5.

your "Audi can do no wrong" attitude.

I don't even see how it's debatable, these aren't my words, these are Audis words. I think Audi has done plenty of things wrong, but at the moment, I think of the 3 germans they are the ones that are stepping to the plate and hitting the ball the farthest. What is your argument about with the RS, bit, these aren't my words?

As for the RS issue? What is your debate, what is your argument, what is your point, it's a moot issue, the company said, they are changing the RS strategy, the ocmpany said they are introducing X number of models by 2015, we are focusing on reliability, and spending $15 billion to make this all happen, and we want to out sell BMW and MB, and more importantly they've delivered. They've outsold BMW in Europe this year, they are seeing the greatest growth, they are #1 in china by a large margin, they are considered the fastest rising star of the germans at the moment. And their revenue has shot up tremendously.

As for doing no wrong, evidently they are doing something right. In '01 you were happy with the B5 S4 I'm sure, and you know what, clearly that strategy needed improving and the improvements have led to record setting quarters and revenue 5 years running, so what's your point?

I never said Audi can't do wrong, they still do, especially in terms of limiting options in the U.S. market, however, to say choices that have clearly proven fortuitous are wrong is stupid to me. MOreover, I'm not making interpretations of the choices they made, as really, whether they are/were good or bad, I'm just stating what they are, you are saying they are wrong,not me, i was just clarifying the RS 4 was meant to be the M3 killer, and it was a little more expensive, but you pay for what you get.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_11/b3924003.htm<ul><li><a href="http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/sportsgts/audi-may-change-strategy-for-rs-products/">http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/sportsgts/audi-may-change-strategy-for-rs-products/</a</li></ul>

It speaks nothing of your point or "facts" as you call them, in relation to the S4 or M3.

Your saying that Audi is not making RS cars the equivalent to BMW M's brand? Your saying that it's mere coincidence that the B7 RS 4 has 420HP, and the new BMW M3 e92 was slated to have 400HP when first designed using the e90 M5's V8 400HP, but then was was upped to 420HP to match the RS 4's 420HP. Just sheer coincidence.

Right, right, yeah, ok, I concede, I'm crazy, neither Audi nor BMW intend the M3 and RS 4 to compete against one another. Call me nuts, I'm insane, tell the car magazines, got it all wrong, no need to do anymore comparisons. JoeO has confirmed that BMW and Audi have no intention of RS 4 competing against the M3, ro more over Audi's RS branded cars competing against BMW's M branded cars in a class.

Cause it's craaaazzzzy, Totally nuts, that the top of line 3 series would compete against the top of line A4 series.

"Cause it's craaaazzzzy, Totally nuts, that the top of line 3 series would compete against the top of line A4 series."

- What about the bottom end? Does the Bottom-end A4 compete against the Bottom-end 3-series? I'm I "craaaazzzzy" if I compared the bottom-end A4 against the Bottom-end 3-series? Just like you did with the top-end.

Especially now when the new M3 can be had for a whomping $13,000 less than a RS4. :-) The new M3 is closer in price to the S4 than the RS4.

(BTW, quattro smattro: make your case to the BMW engineers and majority of the German population how 4WD is mandatory for good driving).