The G35 Sport came out on top over the 335i mainly because it offers better value. The last place finish for the C350 Sport should be a good indication of where the B8 A4 3.2 will finish among this group given its bottom of the pack engine power (less hp and torque than the C350). It's very disheartening to see the B7 A4 3.2 ignored in all sport sedan comparison tests, not just now (since it's on the way out) but ever since it came out new as a 2005.5 model since it's considered more of a non-sporty quasi-luxury car. The A4 line has been left out of all recent sport sedan comparisons mainly because all the other players are 6-cylinder models and Audi doesn't have a competitive model.
The B8 was Audi's chance to offer a truly competitive 6-cylinder sport sedan to go up against the best in the market and it looks like they have chosen to punt the ball. What Audi doesn't seem to grasp is that in the U.S. market, credibility is established by the top-engine model of the product line. The Lexus IS250 may have a weak 204-hp engine but the IS350 is the model that has established it as a contender in the sport sedan market. Audi's competitive A4 model is the 2.0T but nobody else offers a 200-hp 4-banger that costs upwards of $40K fully loaded. The model that the A4 will be judged by is the 3.2 version which will be initially launched as a Tiptronic only. Will it stand up to 300+ hp offerings from BMW, Lexus and Infiniti? I already know the answer. We'll be lucky if the B8 3.2 will even be included in the field of sport sedans this time around.
I don't mean to bash Audi, but they seem to blow chance after chance to hit a home run and live up to their own Never Follow slogan. They seem content to aim for bottom of the pack in the engine department and hope that people choose their products for their nice interiors and elegant designs. Audi used to enjoy a competive price advantage relative to BMW and Mercedes. That no longer seems to be the case. They have taken away their Audi Advantage maintenance program and their leases are not competitive. Given these realities, the product has to sell on its own merits.
I don't buy the argument that the S4 is the model that competes directly with the 300-hp cars tested in this group. Pricewise, the A4 3.2 is the natural competitor in this segment (same price range, number of cylinders, etc.) and it has to compete favorably in order to establish the A4 line as a top sport sedan contender.
If I were an AoA product planner, I would have offered a 230-hp 2.0T and a 300-hp 3.2 model (turbo or naturally aspirated) for the B8 and not bothered with a 265-hp engine that offers no more torque than the outgoing 3.1 liter V6 and barely more horses that may or may not make up for the inevitable weight increase.<ul><li><a href="http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=123235">Edmunds.com sport sedan comparison test</a></li></ul>
11-03-2007, 09:47 AM
benefits by offering a true sports car that directly competes with its' competitors in price and power/performance.
This goes back to my comment, "What If" Audi produced an A4 B8 with a 300 Hp 6 cyl.
11-03-2007, 10:17 AM
their sales here are fairly small (smaller than China), and right now it's hard to make a profit selling to the US. And even in the US, the smaller engine makes up the bulk of sales for nearly any car model from any manufacturer. This will probably be increasingly true as oil prices rise, so Audi probably isn't losing out on much by not offering a more powerful 6 cylinder.
11-03-2007, 10:34 AM
With their decision to offer base, middle, S, and RS versions of their cars, it's a tough balancing act. Make your lower and middle models too powerful and you have to make the S and RS even more so, or else risk diluting the allure to go with the top levels.
Make the S and RS models too powerful and risk making them even more powerful and faster than the next model of cars.
BMW and Mercedes pretty much have three levels, base, middle, and M/AMG. Audi's decision to have four make for odd matchups when trying to compare what should be similar cars.
Just my $0.02.
11-03-2007, 03:22 PM
I tend to disagree that the 2.0T and 3.2 are not direct competitors to the C300/C350 from MB and 328i/335i from MB. For the Audi models to be considered competition against the others' RWD offerings, you have to equip A4 models with quattro. Once you do that and load up the cars equivalently, the 2.0T and 3.2 are within a thousdand or two of the other Germans. And if you look at the cost of leasing each model, Audi's slight sticker price advantage is wiped out completely by much lower residual values.
When I leased my 2006 2.0T S-line, the residual value was 75% for a 2-year/20K mile lease. The number has dropped at least 5-7 points in the last couple of years, and that's on the 2.0T which much better residuals than the 3.2.
When I was looking to lease a 3.2 quattro S-line or a BMW 335i, the BMW residual was about 11 percentage points higher. I didn't even bother getting quotes on a 3.2 since it would have come out higher than a 335i.
Frankly, while I think the 2.0T is a nice engine, it should be reserved for the A3/GTI/Jetta/Passat. If the A4 wants to be considered in the same group as its German and Japanese rivals, even the base engine should be a V6. My 2.0T had decent power and fuel economy but the diesel souding idle does not belong in a $35-44K car.
11-03-2007, 05:29 PM
In the rest of the world, it's a much different story. Here, however, I doubt they would have sold as many A4s if they did not have the 1.8T then and the 2.0T now. And if they didn't sell that many A4s, then the company probably would not be where they are today here in the US.
11-03-2007, 10:41 PM
I think that if Audi did produce a 300 Hp V6 no one would buy their S4 model. I don't think that people would see the point in paying more for not that much more power (if there was a 300 Hp V6).
I think that Audi keeps the A models a lot less powerful than the S models on purpose so that more people will buy them. Look through the entire range, all of the S models offer a significant increase in power and performance, even engine size.
I just think that if Audi didnt have an S model range, then it would offer much more powerful A models because the next jump up would be to the RS models, which is what is the case with the competitors i.e. Mercedes and BMW.
At the end of the day if I had to say whether I would prefer an S model range, or improved A model range I think I would go with the S model range.
No one that I have asked on the S4 forum has said they didn't like the cars from what I have seen and they all seem to be generally happy with the cars. The only problem is that they obviously have the money to spend on them while most people don't making it much harder to get them.
I'd like to try and aim for an S4/S5, it would be a dream car for me though, the reality car would probably be a 3.0L TDI, which is probably an acceptable compromise.
I'm still going to aim for the S4/S5 though. If you don't aim for the sky, you won't achieve anything.
11-03-2007, 11:38 PM
the 3 series would sell with a 215 hp engine, like it did not so long ago, market the A4 B8 like crazy and it will sell
11-04-2007, 06:28 AM
A4 sales in the US has increased. 500 more in Oct 07 vs 06 for the A4/S4/RS4 sedan/cab. Having said that, BMW still sells more but consider that Audi re-established themselves in North Amerca just over 10 years ago, not bad I say. Plus it is nice that I don't see Audi's all over the place here.
Even in Europe, I've read that car sales in Europe is slowing down for all brands.
11-04-2007, 06:47 AM
And I have been driving Audi for a lonnnnnnnnggggggg time.
6 weeks and counting
11-04-2007, 12:03 PM
it's not getting any lighter @ 4400 pounds, plus then the A6 and S4 can allow room for a more powerful V6.
I love Audi, but they need to get rid of these 4 bangers in 40k dollar cars, take that back, they need to get rid of all their 4 cyl. cars and bring the 2.8 fsi V6 from Germany for the base engines period...<ul><li><a href="http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/paris-audi-28fsi-v6-engine/content.shtml">2.8 FSI</a></li></ul>
11-04-2007, 04:45 PM
Unless it's a diesel.
Drop the gas V6 and I'd probably look at something else unfortunately if I could only afford the gas. And the majority of the A4s here in Toronto at least are 2.0T quattros.
11-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Perhaps Audi is purposely trying to stay out of that battlefield because it does not think winning those magazine reviews will win over the buyers it wants? Having a loyal customer base is more important that having large quantities of fleeting buyers.
I know as an Audi owner that we cheer for Audi to take out the heavy hitters in the sports sedan market, but if I truly ask myself what "never follows" means, I stop expecting Audi to meet or beat the power and performance standards of these auto magazine.
I did not get drawn to the A4 based on power. I did not fall in love with Audi because of it either. My A4 is solidly built, has quattro to put down the power that I need, has an interior that conveys comfort and design, and Audi has a known reputation of being mod-friendly with engine offerings much more customizable (B5 S4 for example) than MB, BMW or Lexus.
Those things said, I feel Audi has not taken advantage of what they already have in their manufacturing bin. For example, no quattro for the A3/TT 2.0T? They have not even followed their own theology on certain cars.
11-04-2007, 05:14 PM
heavy marketing is the start of the end for many car manufacturers.
11-04-2007, 05:17 PM
but are they able to afford the quickly rising gas prices?
11-05-2007, 04:56 AM
Audi has more to offer than horsepower. Having said that, I will always choose the V6 over a four. The six is very smooth, and has adequate power for everything except drag racing. If straight-line acceleration is all you want, get a WRX or something else.
Audi has the perfect combination of luxury, sportiness, technology and power, imho. Another thing I like is that you don't see one at every stoplight like you do BMWs. Audis are more exclusive.
11-05-2007, 11:54 AM
you are at it bring back the Audi Advantage for the first 3 years and 50K.
11-05-2007, 11:55 AM
Pathetic if you ask me.
11-05-2007, 12:01 PM
That Author hit the nail on the head.
This is my favorite:
"I don't mean to bash Audi, but they seem to blow chance after chance to hit a home run and live up to their own Never Follow slogan. They seem content to aim for bottom of the pack in the engine department and hope that people choose their products for their nice interiors and elegant designs."
- That is what I've been saying all along
11-05-2007, 12:06 PM
11-05-2007, 12:08 PM
And the top model normal 3-series had 225hp since 2001. That is a long time ago.
11-05-2007, 06:19 PM
So the author concedes that with Audi you get better interiors and elegant designs...
-That is what I've been saying all along
I wonder when you'll get it through your skull that to some of us, 35HP just isnt a big enough deal to spend all your time in an inferior cabin.
I think by now EVERYONE understands your position that horsepower is god, in your eyes. We get it dude, REALLY we do.
11-05-2007, 06:20 PM
11-05-2007, 06:52 PM
I know BMW owner like to be seen as the benchmark of all things on four wheels, but they are not anymore. The fundamental standards in safety and performance defined 10 years ago have been met by all. It's time for a new benchmark, which is still up-for-grabs.
11-06-2007, 02:16 AM
I agree that at the end of the day it is probably nicer to have a better interior, design, quality etc and a little bit less power.
It would be great to have better power at a non S model level but I don't think Audi will ever do that because of the S models. I would love to have more power but at the end of the day when you are bumper to bumper moving through city traffic, in my case, there is really not a lot of point to having lots of power. But that doesn't stop me from wanting the power e.g. that the B8 S4 will provide.
Honestly if I can I will try to get a B8 S4 but at the end of the day if I come out with a 3.0L TDI I will be just as happy I'm sure, especially if fuel prices keep going the stupid way they are.
Its just that feeling inside that makes you want more power, it overrules logic and what happens in the real world.
11-06-2007, 05:08 AM
11-06-2007, 05:15 AM
It isn't Audi. The Audi A4 cannot be the benchmark because it has an engine that is the weakest in its class (as always). It may be time for a new benchmark but the manufactures still haven't produced a BMW killer. BMW is still the benchmark until someone topples them. What you want reality to be (benchmark up for grabs) and actual reality (BMW is still the benchmark) are two different things. Reality can be harsh at times.
Even price wise, there was an argument about 335 vs S5, and how the S5 should be compared to M3, the short of it, a fully equipped 335 cost roughly the same as a fully equipped S5.
Finally, Audi doesn't need to lower it's prices to match BMW or Infiniti or Lexus, have seen the quality of Audi compared to them, especially the BMW. Lexus is fit and finish almost as good as Audi.
You pay for what you get, the 328 etc ... are meant to compete with A line of cars, 3.2 and 2.0T, the 335 vs S5 future S4, the M3 vs future RS5. You care to argue, why did BMW up the M3 to exactly match the outgoing RS4's 414HP rating, the M3 was originally slated at 400.
The A4 2.0T and 3.2 are entry level in the A4 family, period. Look at the model range, and it's understood as such, the S more sporting, hence the S monikor, and RS derived from R Lemans Racing name plus S, gives you the most sporting variant of any model family. The difference between Audi and BMW, Mercedes, etc ... is they don't release them all at the same time, because, they actually take the time to tune the entry level A variant of a car to produce the S , sport model, not just slap a few more horses in it. And the RS were traditionally only built 1 model family at a time, as Quattro GMBH Audi's performance arm simply didn't have the man power and the cars were hand built, but this will changing as like the RS5 and RS6 will exist at the same time, as Peuch Audi's president, said he intends to have audi diversify to some 15 models introduced over the next 3 years, to much the large number of model ranges BMW and Mercedes offer.
You know not of what speak,and anyone who knows Audi, knows that a A4 3.2 is an entry level 4 model for Audi.
Funny every magazine article of I've seen compares the S5 to the 335, so maybe, the journalist in fact do know not to compare a A4 3.2 or 2.0T to a 335, etc ... furthermore, they know the 3.2 is not the top of line 4 model.
11-06-2007, 09:50 PM
The 4 bangers are great on gas, and add a turbo, are a load of fun to drive. No way, the 4 bangers stay, you add a couple of thousand to a 2.0T and you ahve a light 300HP car, you know not what you speak.
11-06-2007, 11:03 PM
and raising theirs accordingly?
11-07-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm tired of folks putting a $5k-10k more expensive Audi against a BMW just so the Audi can compete. The S5 and 335xi are not the same price. They may be close in price if both are fully loaded but keep in mind the 335xi has options that are not available on the S5. Options like a $2,400 Active Cruise Control that you won't find on an S5.
Here's the S5/335 breakdown (comparativly equipped)
NAV : 2,390
Tech Package 1,700
Gas Guzzler tax 1,300
Destination Charge 750
If Audi needs a vehicle that cost over $8000 more to be competitive with a BMW then they already lost. It just looks bad IMO. The A5 is closest in price to the 335 than the S5. I'm not sure where the S5/335 comparisons come into play. I guess people use the S5 to compare against the 335 to save-face. If the A5 (which cost about the same as the 335xi) was compared against the 335xi, it would get destroyed in performance evaluations. Hence the S5 comparisons. Sad if you ask me.
Also, the reason why the magazines compare the 335 to the S5 is because the A5 cannot compete. I've even read that in one of the comparison tests.
11-07-2007, 10:35 AM
"So the author concedes that with Audi you get better interiors and elegant designs..."
- I never disagreed with that
"I wonder when you'll get it through your skull that to some of us, 35HP just isnt a big enough deal to spend all your time in an inferior cabin."
- And when will you get it through your thick skull that a nice interior isn't enough to overcome a weak engine for some folks? Who would want to spend time in a car with a nice interior and an inferior engine? Not me.
"I think by now EVERYONE understands your position that horsepower is god, in your eyes. We get it dude, REALLY we do."
- All I want is for Audi to not bring up the rear when it comes to Engine power. Is that too much to ask?
11-07-2007, 05:13 PM
Audi obviously spends a lot more time wondering about the competitiveness of its 4 cyclinder and TDI engines since that's what they actually sale around the world. In the US, where 6 cyclinder is the norm, A4 has become marginalized. Maybe if it had a more competitive V6, it wouldn't be marginalized...
11-08-2007, 05:25 PM
Audi is a cut above BMW, comparisons, are made through car class. So, when an A4 could be had for $25,000 and a C-Class didn't start until $35,000, were you not supposed to compare them. Get out of hear, they are same class, period, sport sedan, entry level models.
Keep mind Audi has features BMW doesn't, like Side Assist, Drive Select, Hill-Hold assist, should I keep going ... bottom line, the S5 offers you much more for your money, even if it cost more, hell it comes with '19" standard. Only people I see try to compare an entry level A4 2.0T to a 335Xi is American's, all the Euro magazines compare them to the S5, why because, they have good sense, they know model lineups and who a competitor is aiming at when they build a car.
I'm tired of BMW fans getting up set that Audi is k*cking their a$$ in all facets of design these days, so, they've got to create pseudo victories by trying to compare, an Entry level, I mean the absolute cheapest A4 to the 2nd most expensive BMW. Furthermore, since Europe sells smaller engines for BMW, the model lineups are alot more apparent.But because they only bring certain engines to the states, in the U.S. it's virtually impossible to get exact comparison.
The reality is you would compare the Audi 3.0TDI to BMW 335 , if you wanted a more price comparison, and you'd still get all the glory of the Audi options and interior, compared to el cheapo plastico BMW.
11-09-2007, 11:48 AM
"Audi is a cut above BMW, comparisons, are made through car class. So, when an A4 could be had for $25,000 and a C-Class didn't start until $35,000, were you not supposed to compare them. Get out of hear, they are same class, period, sport sedan, entry level models."
- OK then by using that logic, then why aren't people here comparing the BMW 328 to the Audi A4 2.0t? Both cars are "sport sedan, entry level models." But no. People here compare the 328 to the A4 3.2. You cant have it both ways.
"Keep mind Audi has features BMW doesn't, like Side Assist, Drive Select, Hill-Hold assist, should I keep going ... bottom line, the S5 offers you much more for your money, even if it cost more, hell it comes with '19" standard. Only people I see try to compare an entry level A4 2.0T to a 335Xi is American's, all the Euro magazines compare them to the S5, why because, they have good sense, they know model lineups and who a competitor is aiming at when they build a car."
- All of the things that you've just mentioned doesn't even close to making up for the $8,000+ difference. And the A4 3.2 should be compared with the 335, not the 2.0t. I've never heard of anyone comparing a 335 to the 2.0t. I'm hoping that you just made a typo.
"I'm tired of BMW fans getting up set that Audi is k*cking their a$$ in all facets of design these days, so, they've got to create pseudo victories by trying to compare, an Entry level, I mean the absolute cheapest A4 to the 2nd most expensive BMW. Furthermore, since Europe sells smaller engines for BMW, the model lineups are alot more apparent.But because they only bring certain engines to the states, in the U.S. it's virtually impossible to get exact comparison."
- Comparing the cheapest A4 to the second most expensive BMW? What the heck are you talking about? The 328 is the cheapest Audi A4 competitor. I hope you were not implying that the 1-series should be compared against the A4. Keep in mind that the 1-series is a 2-door coupe that should be compared against the A3. And the second most expensive BMW is the M5 (I know you meant 2nd most expensive 3-series).
"The reality is you would compare the Audi 3.0TDI to BMW 335 , if you wanted a more price comparison, and you'd still get all the glory of the Audi options and interior, compared to el cheapo plastico BMW"
- That makes sense. Compare a diesel engined car against a regular gas engined car. Notice that the only strong points that you mention about the Audi doesn't have anything to do with performance. LOL!! You may get a nicer interior but that is about it. The BMW will still handle better, accelerate faster, and brake better. A nice interior can only take you so far.
11-10-2007, 03:56 AM
how much better I think Audi happens to be, you know, why, cause I don't need to nor care to, I just ordered me an S5 and I sit it in it, and it feels like a $100K car, the 335 was nice, drove well, but that was about it. YOu have a different measuring stick, I want the complete package, and for me Audi comes closer, but to each his own.
To answer your question though, BMW used to offer 325, 328, and 330, and M3, Audi offered the A4 1.8 now 2.0t, A4 2.8/3.0 now 3.2, S4 4.2, and RS4. Because, BMW changed their model lineup Audi is supposed to do the same?
Audi isn't trying to "follow" BMW, they are doing what they want to do, and they are building unbelievable cars right now, bottom line is they are doing something right. They aren't trying to convince BMW buyers to buy Audi, they want to produce better cars than either BMW and MB, and that's what Imho they are doing. Look at the latest JD Power reliability rankings. Audi IMHO, is just firing on all cylinders IMHO, the A4 as a model period all around a better car than the 3serise line up, Audi fit finish, quality, engines, accrutrements, drive, are a cut above right now. BMW handles better, ok ... buy the BMW if that's all that matters to you. That simple.
11-10-2007, 12:28 PM
Audi buyers are concerned with Audi putting out great cars, and they are, your benchmark is what? Who are you? That's the better question, who cares? I prefer Audi, when BMW starts making quality cars not just sort of fast ones, then, I might get on board, but have your cheapo plastico, yet, spritely quick in the turns car. That's enough for you, so buy it, man, it's not for me, but for you, it's perfect so stick with it. YOu have a car manufacturer that works for you, so, why are you here telling Audi how they should build their cars. I hope to God Audi becomes nothing like BMW. I rue the day that every Tom Dick and Harry has one, and the A4 for is the first yuppy car someone who thinks they got a little something buys, I don't won't Audi to ever be that guy.
I like my sheep in wolfs clothings, I like that women don't know the brand, I like that they will a 500HP station wagon, that's cool to me, why because it's unique, and doesn't require your approval.
11-10-2007, 04:13 PM
Frankly I'm getting tired of seeing his posts here, we get your point. GO drive your BMW and enjoy it. You don't see us going over to the BMW forums going pro-Audi on a BMW forum.
11-11-2007, 11:38 AM
I paid $3.99 for 91 octane the other day. I'm getting rid of the S4 and buying a car that gets at lest 20/28 EPA mileage. If Audi is smart, they'll put more of their R&D, and more of the cost of the vehicle, into engineering in lightness. Maybe it's time to put the Audi aluminum space frame in all the cars. I remember being astounded at my dad's first D2 A8- I never imagined a car could be so large and quick yet still get great gas mileage.
11-25-2007, 07:27 AM
11-26-2007, 03:13 PM
"Audi buyers are concerned with Audi putting out great cars, and they are, your benchmark is what? Who are you?"
- Who am I? I'm a person who will not blindly accept whatever Audi puts out.
"That's the better question, who cares? I prefer Audi, when BMW starts making quality cars not just sort of fast ones, "
- "BMW makes sort of fast ones (cars)"? Are you serious? Dude you are so much into your Audi love-fest that you fail to realize that BMW vehicles outperform the Audis across the board. The M5? the M6? 500hp. Name an Audi that is faster than either of those cars. If bmw is Sort of fast, then how would you describe Audi?
"but have your cheapo plastico,
- Cheapo plastico that enjoys a better resale value than Audi. LOL!
"yet, spritely quick in the turns car."
- spritely quick? Which is still faster than the Audis in turns. How would you describe the Audis speed in turns?
"That's enough for you, so buy it, man, it's not for me, but for you, it's perfect so stick with it. YOu have a car manufacturer that works for you, so, why are you here telling Audi how they should build their cars."
- God forbid that we ask Audi to make improvements. We should be 1000% happy with whatever Audi gives us and never ever complain. Yeah right.
" I hope to God Audi becomes nothing like BMW. I rue the day that every Tom Dick and Harry has one, and the A4 for is the first yuppy car someone who thinks they got a little something buys, I don't won't Audi to ever be that guy."
- You ever think that the reason why some people buy BMWs is because they make great cars? And besides I see tons of Audis. If you are looking for exclusivity, the A4 isn't going to provide it.
"I like my sheep in wolfs clothings, I like that women don't know the brand, I like that they will a 500HP station wagon, that's cool to me, why because it's unique, and doesn't require your approval."
- Why did you even mention anything about my "approval"? who cares? Funny thing about it is that I'll approve a 500hp Station wagon, but a 265hp A4 3.2 liter will not get my approval.
If anyone who was considering the A4, asked me about the a4, I'll tell them to wait for Audi to give the A4s some competitive engines. Currently the A4's engines aren't competitive. Bottom of the pack. But if that floats your boat...
Nothing is perfect. That means your Audi. BMW vs Audi. Who cares? I have no allegiance with either brand. Which intern gives me the ability to see the flaws of both cars. You seem to think that only BMW has flaws.