01-26-2007, 08:57 PM
what does it stand for, dynamic ride control? I can see it making sense on the S/RS6 and S8, but the RS4?
View Full Version : anyone feel DRC doesn't belong on a car like RS4?...
01-26-2007, 08:57 PM
what does it stand for, dynamic ride control? I can see it making sense on the S/RS6 and S8, but the RS4?
01-27-2007, 03:12 AM
I realize it's vogue to bash the DRC system (especially the guys that replaced it with expensive aftermarket systems) but for a factory setup with a warranty, it rocks IMO. Hell, mine doesn't even leak! ...yet.
01-27-2007, 03:54 AM
windows are down when I make a fast hard right. It sounds as though it is coming from under the car. I am assuming that it is some sort of valve controlling the fluid as it shifts through the DRC system. It was very noticeable on the Tail of the Dragon as the turns are all coming very quick and non stop. The strange thing is it only happens if I make a hard left immediately followed by a right.
01-27-2007, 04:06 AM
If/when I add exhaust I will probably go with the Stasis setup, but I am so far very impressed with the DRC in my car. I am not saying it is the best out there, only that it covers the comfort/performance envelope of "my" driving very well.
01-27-2007, 04:25 AM
01-27-2007, 05:16 AM
If you are using it as a "daily driver," and you're not a TUNER FREAK it's fine.
Maybe if the RS4 was a coupe, then it might not be the best sales gimmick... I don't know.
I love my StaSis/Ohlins suspension... I love it x2 since it's on my Allroad too. I'd put one on my Evo, but I already have Bilstien PSS9's on it, and my 10 year old says it's her favorite car: 1. Because it has the PS2 in it
2. Because it doesn't have as firm a ride as my other cars.
I noticed the 'flaws' in the DRC more than I noticed the benefits, that's all. It's personal...
01-27-2007, 05:27 AM
We have to remember that this is a luxury performance sedan, not a pure sports car. On-road ride is a factor, and I haven't ever driven a car that came from the factory with a better ride/handling balance.
One could better argue that DRC doesn't belong on a car like the R8 or the upcoming TT-RS, but the RS4 is still an upscale sedan, albeit a very capable one.
In choosing the RS4, I did want a certain level of luxury and comfort in the car I was buying.
01-27-2007, 06:33 AM
I thought it cornered flat too, until I got the Ohlins, then I realized what flat cornering and zero dive were all about. The transformation is nothing short of amazing.
S4@last!::Now B7 RS4
01-27-2007, 07:06 AM
very forgiving on any bumps in the road. I have stasis tracksports and they are amazing as far as flat cornering and dive but make no mistake its at the expense of ride comfort. That said I have 17" wheels and the roads in Colorado are notoriously crappy.
01-27-2007, 07:20 AM
use of springs, coils, and sways without the use of the DRC. I prefer a well tuned suspension to some of these toys. Porsche and BMW do a good job of this.
01-27-2007, 07:21 AM
the key is having enough shock to keep up with the spring, and the Ohlins can do this. The revalved Konis they are using in the tracksports? Maybe not as well.
01-27-2007, 07:33 AM
They had comfort in mind as they did with the RS6. There is nothing wrong with the DRC for daily driven cars. If you need something more, upgrade as many do.
But if the RS4 came with a more aggressive suspension then it does stock I think we would be seeing many complaining about the harsh ride...
01-27-2007, 07:34 AM
01-27-2007, 08:20 AM
01-27-2007, 08:25 AM
one does not compliment the other. DRC would be fine in a luxury sedan or coupe, but Audi skimped on the RS4 by using fluid as a spring replacement. Drive a stasis car and you will see what your are missing. Audi could have easily chosen a better suspension system.
01-27-2007, 08:44 AM
I have mine set up 900 and 1200 and it is just right. I do not track the car, just aggressive street hell raising. It's firm make no mistake, but it is a awesome feeling. I could not live with the body roll and dive the DRC offered.
01-27-2007, 08:58 AM
eventually, as an option at least. If it's problematic, may not be a good thing.
01-27-2007, 09:32 AM
The speeds at which the car can corner on the stock suspension speaks for itself. Of course the Stasis is going to be better from a pure performance standpoint, and it's nice that the option is there for those who want to go this route. One needs to remember, however, that any car manufacturer must design their vehicle for the entire range of the target market. In that regard, any car will always be a compromise to a certain degree. A high revving V8 has a much broader appeal than a pure track-ready suspension.
Look at another example...even the most die-hard performance cars don't come from the factory as low as many aftermarket lowered vehicles are set (even within the legal boundries). Why? These cars are designed to deal with real obstacles on public roads. A manufacturer can't assume you will take parking ramps at an angle so as to not damage the front fender of your lowered vehicle.
So it is with suspension. Even within the RS4 target market, the suspension is one that needs to blend public road civility and practicality with performance with the bit of comfort that some of us who are now getting a *little* older may want. (I'm 41 myself) Remember.... who are most of the people who can afford a $75k car? For the most part, It's not the twenty-something crowd that can handle a back-breaking suspension. Remember too that with a really stiff spring rate, even with properly matched dampers, road shocks and jolts will be transmitted to the other suspension components and to the chassis of the car. Down the road, this will mean more squeaks, rattles, etc.
I always used to second guess auto manufacturers. They should have done this, they should have done that. I had a long conversation one day with my wife's cousin who is an engineer for Mercedes Benz. I learned quite a lot in terms of what goes into the decision making for a particular design. These people aren't naive or ignorant. Audi builds Lemans winning race cars, after all. The design simply has to have the broadest appeal for the target market, and have some reserve built in for the daily abuses of public driving, and be within a specified budget.
01-27-2007, 09:59 AM
But they are no where near the level of the Ohilns. The Ohlins set up, IMO is the highest quiality, fully adjustable, properly valved systems for Audi currently on the Market.
Just get a ride in a car with Ohlins and you will understand.
I have them on two cars and love the rides in all aspects. Truely the best of both worlds.... but not cheap, but in this case you get what you pay for and them some:^)
01-27-2007, 11:54 AM
One of the criticisms of the M5 was all the electronic gadetry with the suspension amongst other things. And with all due respect to Porsche and BMW, suspension tuning on these vehicles for a good handling/ride balance is much easier due to RWD and/or engine location and the resultant overall weight distribution.
01-27-2007, 12:13 PM
I had a hard enough time slipping te RS4 in with a wedding coming up....But I do plan on having the stasis placed, then depending on the results of RI RS4's dyno day coming up....the Milltek downpipes and exhaust
S4@last!::Now B7 RS4
01-27-2007, 12:21 PM
01-27-2007, 12:21 PM
without resorting to such things like Audi now has and when BMW does this, it gets universally poor reviews. Track drivers of the RS4 will reference an odd high speed wander in the rear end. The S4 has this trait as well (a bit less though) when going into a turn. A more buttoned down suspension with dampers that will keep up can retain that comfort while making the car more capable at high speed.
As far as suspenstion tuning being easier on the RWD Pcar and BMW, I'm not sure why you say that. What do you mean? The Porsche has it's engine hanging off the rear end of the car behind the rear wheels which I would think represents one hell of a challenge in suspension tuning. If you think about it, it boggles the mind how they can keep that car from going in tail first in every corer :)
It's no big deal though. Most performance enthusiasts who enjoy the RS4 most for it's performance nature (since you are basically paying an extra 20 grand for the fantastic engine, with all else being relatively equal to the S4) are going to put some Motor Sport coilovers on it anyways no matter if it had the DRC or not. Most who bought it more for the exclusivity or AWD utility or luxury will likely never care nor ever see the limits of the DRC anyways.
In all honesty, the DRC probably belongs on the regular S4 with a more capable suspension then going on the RS4 and as much as that would suck for me being an S4 owner, i'd get over it bc like I said, it'd be ripped out anyways.
01-27-2007, 12:29 PM
There are actually no similar parts between the B5 and B6/7 Ohlins setups even. The Ohlins damper is really far more advanced than a Track Sport damper, designed to provide excellent ride quality with even higher spring rates than that of a Track Sport setup which yields a flatter ride with less weight transfer, lessens brake dive, yaw, etc. The Motor Sport suspensions for the B5, B6, B7, C5 are really designed to do it all, from the street to the track and back without more than a few quick adjustments, in some cases no adjustments at all.
I personally ride on B5 Track Sports and have them dialed in quite well. The ride is flat, nicely controlled, a little sacrifice in comfort which I don't mind, however having driven and riden in so many cars with Motor Sport suspension I just can't keep myself from upgrading. It is worth every penny!
Amazing part is with double and triple the factory springs rates and eliminating DRC the RS4 comes out more comfortable and extremely more controlled, it's is really quite amazing.
01-27-2007, 01:45 PM
"...Most performance enthusiasts who enjoy the RS4 most for it's performance nature (since you are basically paying an extra 20 grand for the fantastic engine, with all else being relatively equal to the S4)..."
Where's this coming from? The RS4 is a hand assembled(for the most part) high performanmce tuned car with major engine, trans, chassis, and brake upgrades over the S4. The $20k extra is not fluff.
I agree about the DRC though...but belonging on neither car, rather than the S4 over the RS4.
01-27-2007, 02:30 PM
01-27-2007, 03:04 PM
But I'm willing to bet that most RS4 owners would not want to sacrifice anything in the on-road ride quality department. A suspension design for a public roadway has to be compromised far more than an engine design does. In fact, from pure track car to street car, the suspension is probably the most detuned component, by necessity. The engine can just go like stink. It's the job of the poor suspension to eat up all the **** on the public roadway.
As far as the notion of a stiffer aftermarket suspension being "more comfortable", I've heard this time and time again over the years for all types of cars and all types of suspensions. Manufacturers ALL claim that "you won't compromise much in terms of ride quality". In all honesty, it simply isn't true. Most people try to convince themselves of this, but it just isn't so. Here's the illusion: on smooth surfaces, the stiffer aftermarket suspension will give a more supple responsiveness, if properly dampened, that may feel more comfortable than the "looser" stock suspension, but over rough sufaces and imperfections, the stock suspension will be more forgiving. It is a fact of life.
If you want to argue that the suspension on the RS4 should have been more pure performance oriented, period, than that is a different point all together, but don't think you can acheive this and maintain the same level of ride comfort for public roadways. Alternatively, a more "track ready" suspension with 18" wheels and 255/40 tires may have yielded an acceptable ride quality too and have had superior handling.
It all really depends what you want and what you are willing to compromise on. No matter what decision you make you will find ways to convince yourself that is was the right one. That's just the way we humans are.
01-27-2007, 03:29 PM
and that I guarantee. There is a lot that sets apart the Ohlins setup in terms of ability to handle higher spring rates than most standard aftermarket suspension offerings. You can absolutely maintain the same comfort level, or higher, and flatten the ride out considerably. Multiple channel dampers, base valving, proper valving, proper spring rates and more set apart a Motor Sport setup from any other offering for this market. There truly isn't a compromise, multiple owners of RS4's with the Motor Sport setup will agree and have said that the comfort level is even better. I don't think all of them are just convincing themselves of this;)
Many aftermarket suspension setups are sprung poorly, improperly, the valving is incorrect and they yield a harsh ride over road imperfections, too much nose force to handle higher spring rates, too much rebound, small levels of adjustment, etc. DRC isn't a bad design, it doesn't ride poorly, however some folks look for a level above what is offered, it's not for everyone, however it's a great setup and I suggest anyone give it a test drive or ride if they can!
01-27-2007, 03:38 PM
yes, that was not fair. The RS4 does have many many attributes that are up in performance. But, the chassis is the same 8E chassis and the brakes would be dumped by me anyway for a lighter setup. I am very tempted it is just hard for me to justify it with the main difference being power. If it had twin turbos on it, i'd have already bought one :) Great car.
01-27-2007, 03:58 PM
you're lecturing me on this whole suspension thing, when I never said any of that : )
personally, I think the entire car is more than sufficient out of the box.
And yes, DRC attempts a 'best of both worlds' scenario...which is fine, as long as it's not problematic...which appears to still be the case(reference earlier apps on Audi's).
My greater concern is that DRC will become widely adapted on Audis, and then would tend to stifle true suspension/ride improvements that would have continued to be developed w/o a DRC. If everything then points to DRC, and further DRC refinement, then the result may be asking DRC to take on more and more at the expense of real advances.
01-27-2007, 04:00 PM
01-27-2007, 04:11 PM
The S4 does it too although perhaps to less an extent as professional drivers dont talk about it much in publication but I picked up on it right away after I got the car. The coilover upgrade and sway upgrade helped a lot.<ul><li><a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11333/2007-audi-rs-4-quattro.html">http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11333/2007-audi-rs-4-quattro.html</a</li></ul>
01-27-2007, 04:17 PM
You see he was responding directly to...
"As far as the notion of a stiffer aftermarket suspension being "more comfortable", I've heard this time and time again over the years for all types of cars and all types of suspensions. Manufacturers ALL claim that "you won't compromise much in terms of ride quality". In all honesty, it simply isn't true. Most people try to convince themselves of this, but it just isn't so. Here's the illusion: on smooth surfaces, the stiffer aftermarket suspension will give a more supple responsiveness, if properly dampened, that may feel more comfortable than the "looser" stock suspension, but over rough sufaces and imperfections, the stock suspension will be more forgiving. It is a fact of life."
The Stasis Motorsport suspension is unique. The Ohlins dampers really do allow it to have a ride that is smooth as butter but track worthy.
Even stasis may not want to admit it, but their tracksports do exactly what the above poster was saying. They will absolutely compromise a smooth ride. There is no way their custom valved Konis keep up with the same spring rates their Ohlins are seeing. Same for some other aftermarket setups. Either you get a softer aftermarket setup that is an improvement but still has you pining for more or you get a setup that is very well sprung for the track but a bit harder to live with on the streets. The Motor Sport does it all though. No compromises...except you have to pay for it.
01-27-2007, 04:26 PM
but whenever I see someone from a tuning biz recommend this and that mod, and not coincidentally usually ones that they happen to sell, credibility takes a big hit...at least for me.
Such as: "all you need is these coilovers w/this shock, this sway bar upgrade, and our special fully adjustable camber add-on..."
The next things I hear are "why are my tires rubbing?..."why am I hearing a loud noise when I turn right or left"... "why did my $230 Michelins wear out completely on one side of the tread in only 5k miles..."
"Oh gee, we don't really know, that shouldn't happen"
May sound a bit harsh, but I HAVE heard exactly this kind of crap before, mainly on the S4 boards.
01-27-2007, 04:26 PM
as there is information about the design of the Ohlins damper and the reasons behind why some other suspension setups yield lower comfort levels and cause compromise between flatter/firmer ride and road comfort. I disagree with the statement that it's fact that aftermarket suspension always yields a worse ride over road irregularities in compromise for a "stiffer" ride, this isn't true. If I was a private citizen I would suggest that everyone take a ride in an Ohlins equipped car, also a KW equipped car and any other offering available. It is truly the only method to find out if the product is right for your needs. As I state, DRC isn't bad, however there are options out there which can yield an exceptional road manner and run far higher spring rates, no compromise. Customers in this thread agree, I agree as well having driven these vehicles myself as well.
If you find a car in your area fitted with these options I would suggest having a ride or a drive, it's more important than any information, conjecture, shameless plug or opinion to actually understand what these options actually behave like in your car.
01-27-2007, 04:34 PM
And I agree. Not all retailers/tuners are providing all the info.
On the other hand, most of those issues people post about are from their lack of knowledge too. Modding requires either very very good advice and support or else a lot of knowlege and if some one doesnt know what wheel/tire combo will rub or what alignment and suspension settings to use for their driving style than they learn the hard way.
01-27-2007, 04:34 PM
and this is why it's a middle range suspension in our lineup. The Track Sport with higher spring rates yields a nice flat ride on smooth roads and flattens the ride out nicely, however over road irregularities with these high spring rates you will know there are stiff springs on the car. There are limits to what a revalved Koni damper can do, however the Ohlins doesn't have this issue when valved properly:)
01-27-2007, 04:35 PM
01-27-2007, 04:41 PM
and just because I work for a company that sells top notch product for this particular model doesn't mean it's bad advice. I'd hate to think that just because I work for a supplier of product I can't be trusted. I'd like to see the opposite!
It can be tough to purchase from 4-5 different companies to modify a car. One company may sell a wheel and tire combo that they think will fit without issue. Customer adds a brake kit and adds spacers. Customer calls for suspension and asks about rubbing. We always tell customers that rubbing is a product of wheel offset, tire size and tire manufacturer, even deeper alignment, ride height, spring rate etc. Even with the most stiffly sprung car a wheel and tire package can rub if it's too large or the wrong offset. Suspension as nothing to do with it. All suspension kits we sell for these models we suggest alignment settings and aggressive rotation to those concerned about inner edge tire wear.
There are so many details to modifying a car and there are compromises as well, though sometimes you don't have to:)
01-27-2007, 04:48 PM
and it can hardly be blamed on the individual car owner who relied on the product doing what it claims, and the tuner being proficient in proper installation and setup.
For the most part, big on promise, little on delivery.
It's the name of the game: How can we do it better than the factory and who's doing that best right now? This is the mantra of the car tuners, be it engine, chassis, exhaust, whatever.
Trying to spread the development costs on a particular system across enough car makes to make it $ worhtwhile, for instance, means you often wind up with packages that don't fit a particluar car very well, and never will...even though they may be marketed and sold that way.
Then there's the quality control. As good as some of these tuner parts houses may be, they're usually small indies that just don't/can't have the strict types of quality control measures in place at assembly.
01-27-2007, 05:03 PM
As for rubbing issues, this is a product of people purchasing incorrect combos. Stock offset wheels will not rub even when the purchaser makes another error and drops the car below recommended manufacturer specs.
What goes wrong is people purchase a popular et35 offset aftermarket wheel (OEM is et45). THEN they go and add a wider tire (I see this alot on the S4 forum) going up to a 245. Keep in mind, I run those exact specs and dont have problems. But THEN they go and decide to drop their car based on how the car looks rather than based on the specs that are readily available on websites like Stasis or included right with the coilovers like Bilstein. They decide they want to dump the car. Guess what? The car will not handle properly, the inside edge of the tires will wear out and the tires may rub.
I have none of those problems. It's not because I have a freak car.
With regards to support, I agree with you on things like turbo kits produced by smaller companies or those that are homolugated by multiple companies that have poor communication. But with suspension kits we are talking about there is actually better warranty than OEM. My Bilsteins are warrantied FOR LIFE. Forever. I have taken Steve up on it as well having no problem getting replacements. You could literally beat the hell out of your car for 20 years and call them up and say you need a new damper. They will send one out. I believe Stasis also has a very comprehensive warranty.
Dont get me wront. I agree, not all is perfect but there are some really class act organizations out there that improve the hell out of the car.
If you look at my car alone, it will pull over 1g on a skidpad, will easily run a 13.20 1/4 mile time and puts out almost as much horsepower and a heck of a lot more torque than an RS4. That's pretty cool seeing as I only had to put a few grand into getting it that way.
01-27-2007, 05:10 PM
and companies like Bilstein, for example, are also OEM suppliers.
Look, I don't doubt that the aftermarket designers know these cars extremely well. But they are not, and never will be, at the level of the car mfgrs engineers and design teams. They literally suck hind tit, waiting to see what comes out of the factory, and then trying to improve on it for a specific, if sometimes misguided, purpose(i.e more speed, more power, better track performance, w/o regard for drivavbility, reliability, and cost).
I'm quite sure you know what you're doing, Mike. And my hat's off to you on your car! This is more of a counterpoint to the often over-reaching claims by many tuning suppliers and tuning houses.
01-27-2007, 05:22 PM
it only takes a few bad experiences or poorly done packages/products to make many propective cusomers out there skeptical. I can definelely see where you are coming from. I have also had bad experiences and had some companies outright lie to me about their products, in once case lie continually for a year and in writing until they changed their tune. It was upsetting.
I only hope you'll keep an open mind that there are some high class ones out there that deliver like hell. Look at all the complaints about bone stock cars having problems. If you compare, I am willing to bet that many of these high class tuners get proportionately less bad press.
You'd be shocked how much some of these aftermarkets are putting into their R and D. MTM has an estimated $600,000 dollar dyno ROOM. In fact, Audi in Ingolstadt has been known to use it themselves to test cars out on. That's right, Audi using an aftermarket place to do testing.
Stasis literally resides in an office that is trackside so they can literally track test their kits to their hearts content.
APR has purchased a 12 acre site that will have its own dual dyno bay and private test track.
Not to mention they were approached by Volkswagen to produce a rare "factory tuned" monster...the R-GTI...
Not all is bad out there bud. Give some of them a chance. If you ever want, let me know and i'll make sure you get pointed to some good folks.<ul><li><a href="http://www.goapr.com/images/sportcompactcar0207.pdf">http://www.goapr.com/images/sportcompactcar0207.pdf</a</li></ul>
01-27-2007, 05:37 PM
makes sense, especially considering the huge boon in aftermmarket products today...just look at the prestige exhibitions they're receiving at all the major auto shows now.
It's a big business, much more so in recent years.
I would disagree with you in one area though...that the stock designs are "poor".
I think we all would admit that Audi could do what the tuners are doing and much better(expertise on their own product, greater resources). Why don't they? Why do you have tuners saying in their promos "This is how your car should have been from the factory!" It's because the car mfgrs know that there is a downside to operating at the extremes of performance(as constrained by a particular design).
They know there is inevitably a trade-off, usually directly related to comfort, drivabilty, reliability, etc.
It's not because the average car driver is that ignorant or wouldn't know what to do with it. It's because the average driver doesn't want to be buzzed to death, battered through the seats, or throw away the warranty(to put things in a more intangible light).
But, like you say, they serve a purpose, and not all experiences are necessarily bad.
01-27-2007, 05:46 PM
and I was referencing that it only takes a few poorly designed aftermarket packages out there to make people skeptical (meaning I could understand how you were skeptical of the aftermarket). I wasnt meaning to say that the OEM was poor. Take care.
01-27-2007, 05:54 PM
Oh, and admittedly, I have never been into modding my cars. But I have been around and involved with others modding their cars, and I always had this warm sensation about how glad I was that it wasn't me, dealing with all the crap to get it right.
You leave that RS4 alone, Mike : )
01-27-2007, 07:08 PM
Maybe you have it and are just pulling his chain for all I know.
01-27-2007, 07:10 PM
teasing him about the plug, and questioning the 'slam dunk' great mod notion.
01-28-2007, 05:33 AM
I have not ridden or driven in an RS4 equipped with the Stasis/Ohlins set-up. If it is that much of a breakthough in suspension application, then great. I reserve judgement. I have never made a single comment directed at the Stasis set-up, either positive or negative, specifically because of the fact that I have never experienced it on this car for myself. My comments are more directed at higher performance suspension set-ups, generally speaking. The only personal experience I have with Stasis was on my B5 S4 with Track Sport. Phenomenal handling, but ride was a little harsher.
Looking forward to the opportunity to ride in or drive a Stasis/Ohlins equipped car!!
01-28-2007, 08:51 AM
Audi as all car manufactures have to work within the limits of a budget or they will not sell cars at the price points they need to. The reason Audi does not put Ohlins on all of their cars is not because they think they are no good, it is because they cost about 100 times more then what they currently budget on average for a suspension. It is a compromise as you say.
Also, to think that any car manufacture knows better then any other tuner or supplier is plain wrong. So are you telling me Audi knew more about building engines then Cosworth (now Mahle).... I don't think so. Why do you think they bought Cosworth?
Also, AMG used to be a tuner for Mercedes and Merc bought them because they had a core competency that Merc wanted in house.
Also, if Audi knew suspensions better then Ohlins why would they come to Ohlins for the suspensions on the S4, RS6, R8 and now R10? Because Audi knows that Ohlins has an area of expertise they do not and it is more efficient to go to a quality supplier then reinvent the wheel.
I think there are poor aftermarket companies and there are good aftermarket companies. Companies that stand behind their products and others that hides behind lawyers. But to throw them all in the same basket is not right. When I decided to build my S4 up about 3 years ago I did quite a bit of research to decide whose parts I was going to use on the car. After that process the choice was clear for me and I could not have been happier.
01-28-2007, 08:58 AM
01-28-2007, 09:04 AM
you make some very good points.
Car mfgrs do go to the experts for some componentry that they either don't have as high a level of expertise on or don't want to incur the huge costs of doing in-house.
So cost is definitely an issue, a compromise in many cases.
Overall, I think the decisions still have to do with overall product though...the drivability, comfort, reliability. You might say that's why, even though high-end components are available, they are not used in most cases.
01-28-2007, 09:08 AM
is to counter so much of this tuner critiquing of the RS4 suspension and how they can simply take care of this or that problem with this or that suspension upgrade. If only it were as simple as that. I don't like the idea of DRC, but I wouldn't feel comfortable telling RS4 owners to simply trash it and replace it with an aftermarket suspension setup.
01-28-2007, 09:18 AM
I think having that gives people a better pool of information to draw on... that is why I ask.
I have Ohlins on two of my cars and would on a third if STaSIS made a kit for the S8. I would have also replaced the suspension in my RS6 with Ohlins had I kept the car but it was a lease and did not make sense to put them on.
I the DRC is a wonderful bit of technology but has its flaws and limitations. For many it is just fine but for others it is not. I am one of those that think Ohlins are one of the best upgrades you can have for an Audi. If you get the opportunity to drive a car with them please do. In fact, not sure where you live but if you are ever in the SF Bay Area I would let you drive both my cars with them.
01-28-2007, 09:26 AM
what you're saying is true. But many RS4 owners whose cars are only weeks old are being told to simply switch out their suspension(and the DRC) for aftermarket. I think that's a bit premature and simplistic in its approach. This is just a personal opinion, nothing more. Just banter about the tuners already hitting up new RS4 owners to do this mod or that. Let's not forget the underlying motive in that.
01-28-2007, 10:43 AM
ask yourself this: if DRC didn't make the RS4 handle better, why would Audi go through the trouble of putting it on the car?
the S4 is pretty easy to throw off its feet...the RS4 isn't. the difference is DRC.
01-28-2007, 11:09 AM
I think the jury is still out on the DRC, just by some of the comments here over time. I'll defer to actual RS4 owners on this, obviously. I think it comes down to whether it's a perfected system yet, or not.
01-28-2007, 11:17 AM
isnt as hard? What handling characteristic or data point are you talking about?
01-28-2007, 07:34 PM
They are in the business of selling products as is Audi. But I think most people who buy a 75k car are able to come to their own reasonable decisions about how they want to spend their money. Upgrading a car is not for everyone and many people are happy with the cars they way they are and that is great. But there are others who are not and for those people it is nice to have other options, IMO.
01-28-2007, 10:06 PM
You may have the greatest suspension in the world, however, if you read and follow the Ohlin guidelines, the shocks have to be pulled, drained and refilled with oil quite often. I have yet to hear anyone discuss the real maintaince aspects of your suspension system on a road car that is being driven 15K miles per year.
I would appreciate it if you would discuss this in one of your marketing posts.
01-28-2007, 11:00 PM
If i understand the physics of DRC correctly, DRC performs a Damper to Spring transformation. Because of the cross coupling, hydraulic dampers are transformed into virtual springs. DRC can run with lighter spring rates, because of the way it's engineered.
When you go to a non-DRC suspension, the spring rates have to increase, as well as the dampening rates, to achieve a similar or better response.
The biggest problem with DRC is most likely that very few people in the entire world actually understand it's dynamics. It's not a simple system like a "normal" spring/damper suspension. This makes it difficult for anyone but factory engineers to tune, since they are the only ones who have the dynamic models to work with.
01-29-2007, 08:17 AM
rebuild intervals. Also, the recommendations you are reading I suspect are for a race car which would be a MUCH harsher environment then a street car and would require rebuilds more often.
I personally know of people with 75k on STaSIS Ohlins without a rebuild and they work just fine. I have about 15k on mine and about 30+ track days without a rebuild and not a sign of any problem.
Not to say there could not be... but I have heard of any reported problems from any owners.
01-29-2007, 08:21 AM
Not to say it is not possible.... but I would guess the challenges would be there. I really like the concept of the DRC system.
01-29-2007, 09:37 AM
and our systems do not need to be rebuilt, refreshed or otherwise removed for service every 15k miles. Ohlins has recommended road service guidelines in their Basic Information PDF (20k to 30k KM) which is not specific to any damper, this is not specific to any one unit, it is a generalization and does not take into account anything specific about the dampers that we use. Through our testing and experience the units that we use on street and even heavily track driven vehicles can easily maintain a proper oil composure for well over 15k miles, the oil is clean and free of contamination, internal parts are all well within their working parameters, the nitrogen charge stays at our specification for 4 years and longer.
As with any suspension component of a vehicle I would suggest keeping the damper clean of contaminants that can be corrosive, ie salt/grime/oil, when use in harsher environments, inspect several times a year, generally with oil changes.
I have an A6 C5 in the shop in front of me with over 3 years use on our Motor Sport system, the car has 150k miles on it (waiting to hear from customer on mileage). While pulling his motor for turbos and a gearbox rebuild we updated his valving. Our tech checked nitrogen pressures on each damper, perfect. Not one leaking seal, not one internal part out of working order, oil was nearly as fresh as the day it went it. We reused nearly ever part of the damper, including seals in excellent condition, for his revalving. We have long term results in-house and with customers that prove reliability and longevity for our specific dampers and street use. Aside from the longevity of use there is an added bonus to the Ohlins dampers, they are fully rebuildable. We can rebuild, refresh and alter any of our dampers in house, put them on our shock dyno and produce a plot for each damper we build to ensure quality control.
Our SPA shock dyno in it's current location (spring tester upper right):
In action at our old location:
Aside from the above I really don't know how to alleviate any skeptism and criticism from the same group of individuals on this forum. Essentially I always finish posts with a disclaimer about modifying now. If you do not feel that you need to upgrade from the DRC then our Motor Sport system is not for you, possibly in the future your mind will change. Modifying is not for everyone, however I will continue to talk about our product and answer any questions regarding it to the best of my ability. We do really attempt to run the best outfit providing the best product in this market by using the proper staff, proper equipment and proper location:
Hopefully folks will begin to find that marketing posts actually hold creedence, it's not just lip service.
01-29-2007, 12:14 PM
an example of what to be prepared for (I speak from experience)<ul><li><a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/rs6/msgs/32963.phtml">click</a></li></ul>
01-29-2007, 12:43 PM
and in simplified terms:
System consists of, 4 dampers, 2 high charge accumulators with central valves and lines that cross link the dampers through the central valves.
If you have both dampers compressing, let's say you hit a bump that causes compression left front and right rear (likely all dampers moving almost synchronously). The oil forced out of the damper is forced against the pressure in the accumulator (against a floating piston that has gas charge behind it) to provide a specific type of damping, comfort. DRC will not provide added resistance to any damper movement in this case.
If you have dampers doing different things, let's say left front loading and right rear unloading (turning right at speed). The right rear damper draws fluid from the accumulator which causes the cross linked damper to not be able to force the fluid into the accumulator, essentially blocking flow to a degree. This causes the front damper to essentially gain a large amount of compression force which fights the compression of the damper in an attempt to behave like spring rate.
Anti-dive, you are drawing fluid out of both rear dampers so the two accumulators behave in the same manner as turning except simultaneously. It's not a bad concept at all, though implementation is tough and there are have been some service issues associated with it. There is a lot of force and pressure being used here, the accumulators are at 16bar, 230psi!
01-29-2007, 12:47 PM
01-29-2007, 02:16 PM
01-29-2007, 03:07 PM
01-29-2007, 04:34 PM
01-29-2007, 08:19 PM