I've been searching for evidence or testimonials about supposedly well-known problems with the 2.7T engine. Here's the deal:
I'm still driving my 3rd Audi, a '91 200 TQ 20v. I've had it for a long time and love it, but it's getting old (>230K miles). I've had my eyes on the A6 2.7T for some years now. However, my favorite mechanic, an excellent local Audi expert and racer and Audi loyalist to the bone, insists that the 2.7T engine is REALLY bad news. In fact, he's convinced that Audi should recall them for updates. According to him, it seems that Audi dropped the ball on the 4-valve v-block design causing seals to break down after 60K miles. He's already rebuilt 12 of these engines over the past year, all with <100K miles.
So, I'm writing to this forum to find out:
1. Anybody had similar experience with the 2.7T engine?
2. Has there been any acknowledgement from the factory on the existence and/or cause of this?
3. Any after-market cures to look out for so that, once re-built, one could be confident that it was fixed.
4. Any indication that it's inherent in the design of the engine and can't be corrected.
Honestly, I've been a die-hard Audi fan for nearly 20 years. But this shakes my confidence in the company, especially in light of the fact that they seem to be totally sweeping this under the rug.
01-26-2006, 04:09 PM
our engines are completely fine.....stock turbos aren't the best but the engines are fine, very stout actually for what kind of power a lot put through them
01-26-2006, 09:36 PM
Oops on two accounts.
First, that's my goof, not the mechanic's. Second, I should've looked into the audience a bit more thoroughly before being so...well...blunt.
But, since I already have....
Begging your pardon, I completely respect this guys opinion. And I've seen the engines being rebuilt. Hell, the crappy seals on the 2.7T have even been mentioned on this forum. And these are completely stock, family cars. Makes me wonder what you mean by "fine". Certainly not what I've grown accustomed to expect from Audi.
Generally speaking, you'd be hard pressed to find more staunch audi fanatics than either he or myself. That's what makes it so dissappointing. And that's what made me decide to address this on this forum....to try and get some unbiased perspective on this KNOWN issue. But, alas, I guess I'll have to look elsewhere :-(
ETA 4 SEC
01-27-2006, 10:44 AM
Would your buddy be talking about the 2.8 engine
and not the 2.7T?
01-28-2006, 06:40 AM
...to my understanding, this is very specific to the 2.7T. I'm checking on more specific information.
Also, I don't think it's with the head gaskets, more of a seal problem and I think it's with the cam or crank. I'll repost with more specific info.
01-30-2006, 06:26 AM
Our engine is based on the 2.8. The cylinder bore is not quite as much to accomodate the pressure of the turbos..adding longevity with the adaptation. Its still the 5 valve design.
If you read the posts and search the archives on the c5 A6 forum and the allroad forum, I don't think you will find anyone who has had the NEED for an engine rebuild with the 2.7T.
However...there have always been cam seals and valve cover gaskets that leak, slowly. There have been turbo oil return lines that clog or leak as well. But IIRC there have been no head gasket problems. Add to this that these boards are populated by people who generally DON'T BABY their cars. We should have some blown pistons and rods.. but don't.
This is one strong engine. The turbos are a possible weak link, the gaskets are problematic and the ECU system is filled with polution control crap. But in the end its the added systems that have been known to fail.. not the motor itself.
What you post is that the "family guys" don't know didly about what they are driving. One fellow poster recalled watching an older women drive a 2.7T with the turbo lady singing...not knowing what it meant.
Another said to her husband.. "I've had this funny light glowing on the dash for 4 weeks..."
Another said to me while on line at the dealer... "What do turbos do anyway?"
So you put a high performance car in the hands of a guy who just came out of an Avalon or a Continental, or a Sable and you have the need for motor work AS THE RESULT OF NEGLECT.
The point is that the motor work your friend is doing is a SYMPTOM not the actual problem.
Drive one...then buy on and enjoy the modding life.
01-30-2006, 07:36 AM
...and "re-build" is probably the wrong term. Again, my mistake. It's probably more top-end work that he was refering to.
Still, he's been pretty adamant that there's a persistent problem. I think he's refering to cam seals, but I'm still hoping to get more specific information from him.
Like you say, it really could be that he's seeing a lot of casualties resulting from neglect by people that don't fully understand and appreciate what they're driving.
Thanks for the post. It really is encouraging for me because I'm really attracted to the idea of the larger sized A6 and the rather large array of mods for the 2.7T.
As I've indicated, I'll re-post with more specific information about his concerns as I receive it.
01-30-2006, 09:03 AM
01-30-2006, 01:38 PM
...received this afternoon.
"the typical problem with the 2.7t is that the cam adjusters leak (aka cam ajuster units & cam chain tensioners). some claim that only the seals leak, but we consistently see them leak from the adjuster body. another problem with some of the 2.7t was premature failure of the waterpump causing the timing belt to slip and bend valves. we also see the camshaft seals leak."
Granted this is all top-end stuff, but it still sounds pretty scary (read: *expensive*).
Also, assuming it's given that this problem exists, once re-worked, is it truly corrected, or just set for a period of time before it all starts again?
I dunno. It scares me a little.
01-30-2006, 07:19 PM
But we all believe in preventative maint. Timing belt replacement AND the Timing belt tensioner and the water pump. At at 80K+ depending on the car.
The cam seals front and rear are common as well. Its the price of an audi.
01-31-2006, 02:46 PM
So, you seem to indicate that, for the 2.7T 30v V6, you should just expect to not only replace the timing belt, but just go ahead and replace cam adjusters, water pump and maybe even cam seals at 80K +/-??? Still scares me a bit.
But, let's take it a step further. You can use a metal impeller WP, right? Does that cure that problem more long-term?
Also, are there aftermarket or upgraded cam adjusters and/or seals that can be used to cure the problem more long term?
Any and all comments appreciated:)
01-31-2006, 03:29 PM
So, there isn't a 2000/2001 A6 with the 30V V6 and 6-speed manual?
Any comprehensive list identifying available configurations vs. year and model?
Links and urls would be cool:)
02-01-2006, 01:05 PM
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/10896/dsc01436.jpg"></center><p>It was a result of poor workmanship from the sellng dealer (Richmond Motors in Chatam Ontario) than any problem with the motor. In owning two 2.7t cars, and 3 2.7t engines I would have to say that they are very reliable engines. Have never run into turbo problems (I am a fanatic about proper warm up/cool down and synth oil every 6k kms).
I wouldn't worry too much about leaking seals, mechanics who work on my cars all tell me that you need to take care of the turbos and everything else will be fine. TB replacement as per this site's recommended schedule is also a good idea. Other than that your worries are few and far between.
The one I blew up ate a few valves and a spark plug and still ran (tho not very well).
If you come to this site and expect people to be down on the cars we all love, you are mistaken, so cut these guys some slack, they are trying to help.
02-01-2006, 03:32 PM
Also, there aren't any upgraded cam seals or adjusters, either (still wearing flame suit.) Honestly, the timing belt needs to be changed out every 60k or so, along with the wp, tstat, and since you have to take the front end off of the car, why not just do the cam seals, valve cover gaskets, etc.?
I just got done doing mine at 55k (2001.5), and I had a leaking cam seal on the driver's side. It had been leaking since 30k with no adverse problems; I probably lost 1 quart of oil for about 4k miles. It apparently wasn't that big of a deal because it never was addressed by Audi when I was under warranty. So, yes, it seems "scary" that you "have" to replace all that stuff, but I could have just left it alone and run another 55k until it either a.) started dumping oil or b.) came time for the next timing belt change.
The above not only applies to the 2.7t but also to the 2.2t I5, 3.6 V8, and 2.3 I5 that were in my other Audis. Did I do them? Yes to some, no to others, and it's not mattered so far because nothing has broken (knocks on wood.) Preventative maintenance is just that: preventative. You actually never see the results because the car is never broken. However, peace of mind is a whole lot cheaper than a new engine.
02-01-2006, 04:26 PM
...maybe it's not quite so "scary" after all. It IS a bit more involved PM than I'd prefer, but still better than driving a Chevy:o
No doubt, it's important to be able to determine what's been done when checking out used units.
Thanks much for your input, and to all the rest.
Great group here!!
02-01-2006, 06:46 PM
but they are hard to find..
Hang out on the A6 c5 forum and the allroad forum get the know us. The motor forums are secondary.
ETA 4 SEC
02-03-2006, 07:12 AM
instead of the odd plastic ones that were on
the original (I should have taken pics).
I bought mine from ECS. If I remember
correctly, my Audi Tech told me that the water
pump was revised. When and why, I don't
remember. I'll have to ask again.
I did my WP and Timing belt at 80,000 miles.
I also don't have any leaks of any kind.
02-03-2006, 07:30 AM
Thanks for the post. Was the WP from Audi? Or was it aftermarket/3rd party?
ETA 4 SEC
02-03-2006, 09:06 AM
but I would be reluctant to call it "Aftermarket".
It's described as, "OE water pump with new gasket
manufactured by HEPU of Germany."
I'll email you more info.
02-03-2006, 01:16 PM
Their stuff is usually OE or OEM, but heaven only knows. All I know is that mine had a plastic impeller and my mechanic said there wasn't one with a metal impeller out yet. There might be one out there, though. Probably need to research it.
The stock K03s are really the only weak point. The 2.7T is well built for boost, coming stock with a forged crank, rods and pistons. The 6 speed manual in my A6 is a great transmission too, I love the ratios, especially top gear.
02-06-2006, 01:47 PM
It seems pretty obvious, from this thread and others, that there is indeed a set of issues with this engine. I guess it's just a matter of how much of an issue.
Specifically, there seem to be issues with both the water pump and with the cam adjusters. The WP is prone to pre-mature failure that can lead to more serious conditions (e.g., timing belt slip and possibly broken or bent valves). The cam adjusters have been found to leak oil on numerous occasions. To a less extent, it seems, cam seals have also been found to leak.
All that said, it seems that the remedy for all this is extra dilligence in what would be considered routine and/or preventative maintenance. Although it might be considered excessive by many, pro-active replacement of the WP BEFORE failure, possibly with an available metal blade unit, and replacement of the cam adjusters and regular intervals might be all that's required to mitigate these issues from occuring.
I think I can accept that:)
02-07-2006, 08:33 AM
Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with that - the engine just requires a little more maintenance than most engines. It is, however, making a lot of horsepower and torque through the use of forced induction. If it makes you feel any better, no one has broken the internals (yet...)
02-07-2006, 09:20 AM
02-07-2006, 06:02 PM
03-06-2006, 09:08 PM
03-10-2006, 04:39 AM
03-11-2006, 09:09 PM
Just look. They will have this wheel package stock from the factory, have a better suspension(not great, but better), and be 6 speed. Most were in silver...sorry ;-)
Shweb, I've just come your route, from the I5T-20Vs as a 100% DIYer. After lurking and asking Qs for a year, decided that the '02 A6 2.7T 6spd may be second only to the 44 chassis, 3B/AAN engines in reliability (>development years) but the A6 car in total is an order of magnitude more complex. Look at it as just a new challenge! Old? Your 200-20V is just well broken in! I'm keeping mine.
'90 90Q-20V 160K
'91 200Q-20V 210K
'02 A6 2.7T 6spd 70K
'88 Ford "Quatro" Tractor
Other Misc. Toys
03-23-2006, 04:03 PM
Has anyone had serious problems after the check engine light flashed multiple times ? Audi said that if it didnt just come on but it flashed first it means to stop the car instantly and get it towed in...serious or no... let me know