here because I'll get group f'd by a bunch of people that will say stuff like "Take it to the track!" or other.

I will say it was on a freeway.

grow some thicker skin.

but yes. that sounds like it would have been fun. that is a very good, powerful car.

haven't had the pleasure yet...

though i did play with a new M5 in the rain. he didn't know his car though. he couldn't keep up and almost lost it.

my buddy has a 545. Off the line S4 wins and stays ahead to 60. Once you get up to around 80 the 545 catches up and starts to pull. We tried them out on a windy road and the 545 had a hard time keeping up.

because I would think the RWD BMW's would do better in the twisties, all things being equal.

may be, it's not an M or S/RS level vehicle. In other words, it's not necessarily known to be an outstanding car in the handling department as far as I know. The S4 should win hands down (and did I might add).

BMW's are better in the twisties. Audi's have the nose heavy FWD based understeer issue, no matter how well camouflaged by tech. This is normal conditions, dry pavement. The Quattro can hold the road like no RWD BMW can in the rain.

if you drive an awd car like the S4 the same way you drive a rwd car like the 545 the S will not do well in the twisties.

nor would the 545 do well the other way around.

drive an S4 the way it should be driven in the twisties (late braking into and hard throttle out of the turns- to put it simply) no way the 545/550 can keep up even if driven well.

but you have to realize that in real life the vast majority of such races go to the most skilled driver (or the luckier, less skilled driver who is more reckless and who worries the other driver into backing off).

one has to know one's car.

but, we're not talking skid pad here, we're talking about driving a winding mountain road, where the BMW's better balance and complete lack of undertseer will not suffer like the FWD based Quattro cars will in the turns. EVERY comparison I have ever seen on handling on mountain roads in dry conditions favors BMW over its Audi counterparts.

my comments are not regarding the S4-545 matchup specifically, as I don't think the larger 5 series is a good comparison to the S4.

Rather, I am talking about BMW's in general handling better in normal conditions in turns on winding roads than AWD Audi's. They are lighter, better balanced, less nose heavy, w/o understeer, and more tossable.

Turn in and throttle techniques aside, sorry, but I'm not convinced of the argument that Audi's beat BMW's in the twisties, other than in rain conditions. This is well know within the industry and commented on often, when comparing the two.

and i'll leave it at that.

Just look at Audi's domination w/ Quattro. If it were so heavy, less tossable, and understeering as you say, Audi wouldn't have won so many races in the SCCA, and other series. A RWD doesn't have as much grip as AWD cars, regardless of weather. It comes down to which driver is more comfortable w/ their car. Also remember RWD is considered more "fun" not necessarily faster than AWD. AWD allows you to put down the power earlier than RWD cars (in general). As a side note, BMW's are known for their feedback, which doesn't translate to faster, just adds to the fun factor that the B M's are known for.

are basically a FWD first, AWD second design dating way back. You often read where despite Quattro and refinements to weight distribution, that Audi's suffer from some of the FWD engineering issues, understeer particularly.

The BMW's...I am no big fan of BMW but it is universally accepted that they have the best handling and sweetest engines in their class. By best handling, they are not talking on the freeway or on the way to the grocery store. Superior feedback is thru the steering wheel...it's another plus and can enhance the "feel" for the car, but is not the same things as handling dynamics.

The grip and increased "at the limit" hold of an Audi with it's heavier weight and Quattro does not make it faster thru the twisties. On the skidpad, a slalom on a course, yes...especially when they throw some water down.

Your stmt:

"Not sure what S4 is FWD biased..."

The A4, which the S4 is derived from...the 2WD version of the A4(FronTrak) is FWD, right?

M3 guys get huge grins when they see my car oversteer at the autocross. they're always tickled pink.

but cannot eliminate the FWD based design, and certain characterisitics that go with that.

What kind of oversteer are you talking about with the FWD layout and all that weight(V8) up front. I'm curious. I know that oversteer can be induced(thru throttle, but having to work at it) in the Quattro, but it's not a natural characterisitic of these cars.

your car, see those telltale CV joints...you won't find those on a RWD layout. The point being that Audi's, from the beginning, were FWD designs. BMW's have always been RWD designs.

esp to "full off'

approach turn

brake

turn into apex a bit steeply

accelerate

smile

I like that. But you're not willing to admit that Audi's suffer to some extent from understeer, inherent to their FWD based origins? As opposed to BMW's RWD design.

both understeer. the audi more because it is heavier at the front. but that factor doesn't make the bmw more fun.

fun is an adjective/adverb.

you can still go fast in the corners, but not as fast as some others, due to this little physics issue.

:-D