Versus the following subs. I went to several audio shops and listened to the Velodyne DD12 in mono, the SPL 1200R in mono and a pair of SPL 1000R in stereo.

First I'll backtrack to the first time I heard to the SPL 1200R. It was in a room similar in size to mine (~12' x 17' x 7.5'). We played several movie clips with the sub OFF at first then switched ON. It was immediately apparent how much better it was with the sub ON. It dramatically changed the sound stage and impacted the movie experience. The sound level at which the movie was played was at normal levels, not ear piercing not fatiguing. Needless to say I was impressed.

After that test and after speaking with the salesman, reading up on the subject and having other discussions, I started to think that perhaps instead of one SPL 1200R running in mono maybe I should opt for two smaller SPL 1000R in stereo!

Then this week while on a trip, I had several days of nothing to do in the city where we were staying and decided to call two audio shops that carried Velodyne. Now I also thought that maybe I should step up to the DD series. The first shop I visited had in stock and was using a DD12 as a demo. It was in a wonderful system in an acoustically treated room.

The two amps driving the main speakers were from Aragon with some fancy wiring. They were powering a pair of incredible Wilson Sophias (I prefer the Watt Puppy 8).
This time we listen to only music from jazz to classical to a choir. The pieces of music that were chosen by the owner of the store were chosen because of the bass content.

Again we started with the DD12 in the OFF position and the sound was simply beautiful! God I love Wilson Audio. The Sophias went deep and I was very happy with their sound reproduction. However when the same passages were repeated with the single DD12 it became stunning. The bass was not boomy, was controlled and was more of a subtle blend that made everything seamless. Again the sound stage was changed for the better.

BTW that choir piece still gives me goose bumps as I sit here thinking about it.

The next shop had a terrible listening room and the owner admitted to that. He told me that if a sub passed a listening test in this room it would be fine in just about any room. The room as a suspended tile ceiling with another dry wall ceiling 4 feet above that making it a sub trap.

He had on demo a SPL 1500R and a DD15 but I refused to listen to those because I did not want to confuse the issue anymore than it as to. We did listen to a single SPL 1200R and a duo of SPL 1000R. This room had way too many speakers lying around in it so sub placement was hard to come by. Actually I was not too impressed by the demo or the room's acoustics but to the owner's credit he had warned me about this prior to our test. He wished we would have given him more time to set up something better.

Because of the room and perhaps because of the two 10 inch SPL 1000R's placement (always critical with subs), I felt the SPL 1200R was better than the two SPL 1000Rs.

In the end the owner told me that Velodyne had sent him by mistake too many SPL 1200Rs and he needed to sell them and was willing to give me a real sweet deal on them. The actual price for the 12 inch sub was cheaper than the 10 inch sub by about $110 each. At that point I had my mind made up (or at least 99.9% made up); I was going to buy not one but two SPL 1200Rs! However my spider senses started tingling and told me to hold on and a make one more phone call before jumping on the Velodyne band wagon.

You see I still have not heard the REL subwoofers yet and no one here in this town has them. So now it's down to inputs from you guys that have perhaps experienced the REL R 305. From what I have read on these it's either people love them in reviews or some say they are not worth it. I don't get it both sides of the spectrum. I'm told that the RELs are very accurate, fast and have a more controlled deep bass. Although very good in a theatre set up they will be even better in a music set up which is important to me.

I won't be able to listen to them for at least a week or perhaps two but my friend who's in the HiFi business that as access to both brands told me the RELs are better and told me to trust him on this. He will order two REL R 305 for me on Monday and I simply don't know anymore WTF I'm doing. BTW the RELs (the two of them) will cost me $500 more to buy then the two SPL 1200Rs. At this point it's a mute point but am I making the right move?

Of course he just took in on a trade a Wilson Watch Dog. God that sucker kick ass maybe, just maybe I should take a closer look at that sub...

<b>PLEASE HELP!</b>

I don't remember what you have for receiver/speakers, but make special note of the lack of upper extension past 60Hz and the heavy distortion for HT...

I would skip anything smaller than 12" in your room on principle anyway.

I really think you should give a DLS 5000R a shot in your room with either Audyssey or some other EQ solution. It will outperform the 1200R easily. Then again, I think the MWF-15 is a better buy these days...<ul><li><a href="http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/990-rel-r-305-a.html">http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/990-rel-r-305-a.html</a</li></ul>

Are all positive claiming it is one of the best Subs for music and HT... You go figure!

I got another answer from a user on another board that switched from Velodyne because his sub died to the R 305 and he finds the REL a much better sub in the same application. He highly recommends it.

With 500 series pre-amp, surround sound processor and the 602 transport. For speakers I use five DSP 5000.

missing distortion-free output below 40 Hz.

For a high-end system with dedicated room such as yours, you'd be short-changing yourself with a relatively inferior HT sub such as this. It'll be relatively invisible for music.

You can do better, for even less money.

A better feel for them.

What the heck maybe I should just stop dicking around and get that Wilson Watch Dog!

...I've always found myself being able to listen to the music and enjoy the full range of sound on offer. With most other subs (including) Velodyne, I generally find myself hearing the subwoofer sounding like something isn't quite right when listening to music. With movies, many of them are easier to put up with, so long as they are set-up right.
I've not heard the R305 but I'm familiar with a few other REL subs.

On the other hand, a great sub set-up badly isn't as good as a reasonable sub set-up properly. Setting up a sub by ear is easily the best way to get it sounding the way you want to hear it. Letting a microphone do it for you is generally quite a compromise because the chances of there being a microphone in production at any price (let alone the thing thrown-in with a receiver) receiving the information the same way your ears do is pretty much zero.

Also which REL are you familiar with? Were they the more expensive series?

Thanks again.

I personally find any and all ported subs to be very unrefined and boomy plus the chuffing noise that all ported speakers make.

I've not had a lot of exposure to their current line-up, but most of their subs from '95-'05 we regulars in systems I'd set-up or been privy to; Q Series, Strata, Stadium etc. Very few subs out there are tuned for use in music-oriented systems. The manufacturers know most households have their systems set-up for home theater use and also happen to play music on them and design their subs accordingly. Brands like REL, PMC etc have other ideas.

From what I gather, REL's approach and commitment to the reproduction of low frequency effects (LFE) hasn't changed in recent years and I'd be very confident their offerings are still among the most impressive around for the money.

There's a big difference between a sub that is designed to do well with the sound of a Depth Charge or H-2 exploding than one tuned to accurately reproduces tones of a kettle drum or stand-up bass.

I've heard many a musical sub like a REL do really well with movies, but I can't say I've been to impressed with too many movie-tuned subs when playing music.

More subs than I'd care to mention are designed with very little thought given to the amplifier stage. Most subs under $1k have very basic, off-the-shelf generic amplifiers installed to drive these large cones. They get away with it because it's less of an issue with movies, but with music they can have more of a negative effect than positive from the point of view of high fidelity.

Subs only cater for approximately 10% of the frequency range in the sound mix. They are there to provide a subtle yet significant effect. Most of the systems I've heard in people's homes sound as though the sub is responsible for more than 50% of the sound. Ideally, a well-tuned sub should only let you it's actually in operation when you turn it off (if you see what I mean).

I can't say I was referring to the HGS series specifically. It's a design Velodyne can be proud of and many owners swear by with genuine conviction, even with music. For music lovers however, my recommendation still goes with the likes of REL. Not everyone is going to agree with this of course. I trust my ears above all as this is where the ultimate stimulation with the audio experience lies.

I can understand where you're coming from with ported (non-transmission line) subs for the most part. But with loudspeakers, there are some seriously impressive ported designs out there. Speakers placement can do a lot more for getting quality LFE from a speaker than whether or not it's ported.
on the other hand, I've heard some non-ported speakers sound quit ordinary in the lower registers. Ultimately, whether or not a speaker is ported doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with how well it does in with LFE, particularly as many speakers start to taper-off quite quickly at around 80Hz and few go much below 50Hz - regardless of what spec's imply - without being accompanied by a gravity-enhanced sharp curve.

I could not be more pleased. The REL B3 is the smallest of the Britiana series. It is forward firing instead of downward on the 305. It was not difficult to integrate into my 2 channel setup and works invisibly with both music and HT. It likely won't pressurize a room like one designed for HT, but like others have said, it is one of the most musical, fast, and accurate subs on the market. Mine is in a relatively small room (10W x 12L x 9H). It is matched with Pardigm Monitor 6's and a Rotel amp. I honestly can say I have no desire (in the current room) to add any addtional speakers. Good luck on your search for the perfect match to your set up. Just a reminder that used gear is a sweet way to upgrade even more than you thought you could.

and the price is right, go with the velodyne. if money isnt a issue, go with the f113

REL subs are a fairly different offering than the majority of subs out there. They are designed to integrate with your main speakers, and fill in the bass below what your mains are able to produce. This will be why they feature limited upper frequencies (your main speakers should be handling these), and it's why in addition to the usual line level connection they also feature a Neutrik connector that attaches to your amplifier (with bare wire) so that they sub can take on the characteristics of the signal that is driving your main speakers. If you're looking for boom on the cheap they may not be the best fit, though REL subs are capable of putting out lots of tight, tuneful bass. It just depends on what you value in your system.

That would be a really high crossover level for a REL, at least the models that I'm familiar with.

That would also be a high crossover level for the majority of higher end subs on the market. A couple of reasons you might not want to run a sub up to 120hz is that the higher the frequency the more likely you are to hear the subs location in the room, plus it can become harder to integrate the sub with your speakers for this reason.

If you're really worried that you'll be missing a lot if you don't run your sub up to 120hz, keep in mind that the THX crossover point is 80hz, including for THX certified mini-monitors.

Which ultimately doesn't add up to a great deal from the point of view of overall performance.
Always best to put the product to the test before casting it aside because it doesn't meet a questionable specification.

music, if at all.

Some people use two subs (not always for the same reason) to get most out of their LFE (how many subs deliver clean and thorough from say, 80Hz-20Hz? Hardly any). Not too many subs go below 25Hz with any real accuracy, so to use one for everything down to around 25-30Hz and another to go yet lower would allow purpose for such a sub.
And then there's the high-end front towers which really do go low (not many, but some exist), down to around 30Hz.
That said, the full scope of the low pass filter on the R305 takes it from 25Hz-100Hz).

HT solution.

I admire your albeit fruitless efforts though :P