Its a two bedroom condo on Beacon Hill in Boston. AV Designs does custom home audio and theater systems. The location I'm going through is in Newton, MA. Todd is the guy i'm dealing with, I met him last week and he's a good guy/understands my needs.

I'm looking to install a home audio system in the kitchen/hall and two bedrooms with speakers in those rooms. They use Niles and Creston systems. I think the Creston is much more expensive and probably over the top for my needs and frankly, I don't want to spend that much. The Niles has some neat interfaces on their screen and on a wireless remote that control iPod and radio systems. Unfortunately, it can't control the HVAC system like the Creston can. Does anyone here use either of their products? I would love to have one system that controls lights/HVAC/ and sound, but don't want to drop more than 20K for all of this.

Also, I am looking for a home entertainment system for my TV with surround sound, and I don't think I'll be able to integrate it with the Niles system for the rest of the condo. This annoys me as i'd love to keep the whole thing simple, and controlled from one master remote. Anyone have any ideas for this or is too complicated?

I know these questions can take hours to explain, but if anyone is willing to point me in the right direction or share personal experience I would love to hear it and truly appreciate your response.

Note that this is just a condo, and i don't need tons of wattage or huge subwoofers to get great sound, especially with neighbors in the same building. Any suggestions for speaker brands and models would be great.

what you will be watching/listening to, what size speakers/TV you are prepared to put up with and how much you want to spend.
From there he'll be able to best advise you on what is possible.

You are doing it the right way. Given what you want, getting everything taken care of by a good dealer is the best way to do it if you want it done right.

and you have to get the same guy/gal every time to make any changes at high hourly rates.

controlled through an IR light switch with ir bug connected to it. as well as the a/c heat if you buy the proper a/c controller(all IR)

and allows you to contorl it all form a ir/rf remote. its all in buying the proper controllers and running the wire to them for control. all without using crestron.

Niles works well too but you are only using 3-4 zones at the most and having a full control system is a waste. especially when you can do it through a high grade a/v reciever with 2,3 and 4 zone control. the only draw back is when you expand how many rooms have speakers 1 of the zones will control2 rooms instead of fully independant zones.


for 20k you can def have a nice setup, but take into consideration using a multiple zone reciever to cotnrols it. You will ened up gettingmore bang for your buck, better HT speakers etc. reason being is the control systems, even the niles at the smallest i believe has 6 zones and cost around 3-5k. depeneing on if you would compromise that th A/v reciever would cotnrol 1 or 2 rooms on a single zone. then buying a higher end HT reciever will end up making the HT system much better, then if you buy a control system and then a A/v reciever.

it will also allow for higher quality speakers since your spending less!


good luck

You might consider Control 4 (www.control4.com). It's similar to the Niles but typically runs a bit less than a Niles ICS system (assuming that's what you're looking at). You can control lights/HVAC/music, even your DVD collection from a compatible Sony DVD changer.
The one thing I think you're going to be challenged with is having a single remote that does it all, but hopefully Todd can explain the limitations to these systems.

I'm a Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer [CAIP]...all I do, day in and out is program Crestron systems, so I have a bit of experience around this issue.

I [and I think most other CAIP's] always release the pre-compiled code to our client at the end of a job. The CAIP's client is not likely the end user, but a Crestron dealer who's sold/installed the job and subcontracted the programming.

That said, it's been my experience that most Crestron dealers [hardware vendors] do not provide the source code to their customers [the end user], whether or not they subcontract the programming or program in house. There's a variety of reasons for not providing the code to the end user, which are all well and good...more a matter of opinion. The real problems occur when the ownership of the code is not discussed until the end user needs something modified and the original programmer/dealer is, for whatever reason, not going/wanted to perform the work. This is more of an issue in the residential market, as the larger commercial clients are typically more savvy about requiring the source as part of the initial contract.

If you request that your Crestron dealer provide you the pre-compiled source, without encryption at the completion of the project I would hope the dealer would oblige. My personal opinion is that I want you to re-hire me because you think I do good work, not because I'm holding your code hostage.

One thing to keep in mind throughout the process is that while the dealer/programmer may provide the pre-compiled code they cannot legally provide you [or anyone] with the software suite required to edit/compile the code, so you'll have to hire an authorized dealer or CAIP to make any modifications to the program, down the road.

Let me state first off that all I do for a living is program Crestron systems, so the saying 'if your only tool is hammer, everything looks like a nail' may be somewhat relevant...

If you're looking for integration/single point control of a theatre, distributed audio system, HVAC and lights, I would disagree that Crestron is "over the top for my needs". Budgetary issues aside, this is right up the alley of an upper end home automation system.

That said, we all have budgets, and at first glance, yours seems pretty reasonable. My recommendation would be to look at saving money at the interface[s]. Investigate using keypads and push button remotes as opposed to touch screens [which tend to put a bit of a dent in the budget]. You might be closer to affording Crestron than you think.

Is this new construction or existing? Do you already have a controllable lighting sub-system spec'd/in place [ie. Lutron] that you want to take control of?

The building is located on Beacon Hill in Boston. If you're not familiar with the area, there is very little construction as of late. See the link at the bottom if you're curious about the area and it's history.

I suppose my budget is not quite as limited as I say, I just had ideas before embarking on the project. After realizing what kind of technology has come out in the last couple years, it seems like putting a few extra thousand in will make a world of a difference. I already have a 1080p TV I am happy with so that will save me a bit of cash.

There are no existing lighting systems that I am aware of. The building was renovated recently and all of the existing wiring is in good condition, and my inspector noted the electrician did a good job. I assume this will make the integration of a lighting system go smoothly. I have about three months to complete the kitchen remodeling and this entire audio system(s) before my lease at my current apartment runs out. Giving me from my close (June, 3) to my projected move in (late September) to complete all of the modifications. I forsee that as plenty of time.

If what you say is true regarding my ability to go with Creston than I am excited. If this were in fact true, I would sack up and go the extra mile to have the interface of at least one screen in my main living space, and go with basic keypads in other spaces where I will not be using them as frequently (if ever-- i.e. guest bedroom).<ul><li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beacon_Hill,_Boston,_Massachusetts">Beacon Hill, Boston, MA desription.</a></li></ul>

Crestron used to make the software suite available to anyone with a modem and the desire to download.

&lt;opinion&gt;

That's wasn't a good thing.

A well designed Crestron [or equivalent] system with all the hardware correctly specified and interconnected is nothing short of a paper weight if the program doesn't work.

The potential scenario here is a dealer/programmer that couldn't find his a$$ with two hands and a road map, promises the world to an end user and can't deliver. Now the end user has a pile of gear with Crestron logos all over it that 'doesn't work', and he's not too happy about it. Crestron can't support it, because they neither spec'd, installed, nor programmed it, yet they [along with the other parties involved] get a black eye when the project falls apart.

The best way Crestron can regulate the quality of the installations that contain their hardware is to require that [at least] the party responsible for programming the system has some sort of 'official' relationship with them, and therefore [hopefully] enough knowledge to complete the task.

Allowing anyone with a modem access to the software is somewhat akin to Audi letting anyone with a car dealership purchase cars from them for resale. Just because you've got experience selling Chevy's doesn't mean you're going to be able to fulfill the needs of an Audi customer [product knowledge, ability to effect repairs, etc]...and then who's left holding the bag, the end user and by extension, AoA.

&lt;/opinion&gt;

The reality of the situation is that there are very few people that have the ability to competently program a Crestron system, the desire to do so and yet are unable to gain legitimate access to the software. If someone was to fall into this category, I'd recommend they contact their local Crestron office and open up a dialogue...there are some end-user programming options, though I am not personally familiar with the specific policies surrounding them.

I'm certainly not trying to take the place of your AV integrator, but my initial thoughts would be...

AV System:

-Use existing display devices where practical.
-Use existing source gear where practical.
-Use good quality RS-232/Ethernet controllable surround receiver with multi-zone output[s] to drive theatre and distributed audio system. The upper end Denon products come to mind.
-Likely add amplifiers to drive distribution speakers [kitchen, bedrooms, etc...].
-Control via a Crestron MC2E.
-Select keypads/touch screens/remotes as necessary.

Environmental System:

-Select Crestron dimming/control modules as needed. This could mean a centralized/dimmer pack style system or a localized/in-wall dimmer style system...potentially even done wireless [Zigbee], if wire cannot be pulled to required in-wall dimmer location[s]*.
-Add Crestron thermostats.
-Revisit interface selections from above to account for [potential] additional needs of environmental system [ie, replacing light switches with keypads for a centralized system].
-Potentially add Crestron PAC2M automation processor and X-Sig [programming term] with AV control processor for integrated/shared operation depending on scope of environmental sub-system**.

*essentially, the question here is whether or not you want to simply replace existing light switches with [Crestron controllable] in-wall dimmers or replace the existing lighting 'system' and all it's associated points of control [light switches] with a centralized 'dimmer pack' configuration using the automation systems control points [keypads, touch panels, web pages, etc...] exclusively. A centralized system would typically involve a fair amount of electrical re-wiring if not in the initial electrical specification of the building, and therefore may not be practical for a retrofit.

**I would highly recommend doing this if you have more than a rooms worth of lighting to control. Using D3 [Crestron software] to program the environmental system, then connecting that system to the AV system's processor can add a large amount of environmental functionality that a single processor [in this situation] would likely not deliver.

Again, this is my quick take on a less expensive, but still practical and control friendly AV + Environmental system. Your integrator may present you with something quite different that is equally if not better suited to the situation.

I'm curious, what do you think would be a more practical method of keeping the 'for hire' integration and/or programming standards at their current level [which may or may not be as high as they should be, but that's another discussion] while allowing the end-user accessibility you desire?

The majority of the goal behind restricting access to the software was to shut out the 'trunk slammers' who were selling things they couldn't deliver. More of a side effect, was anyone without an official relationship with Crestron got shut out too...the end-user programmers.

With that in mind, any proposed solution would need to ensure that people that would gain access to the tools via the policy change would not be out 'programming for hire' and/or buying hardware off the gray market and pretending to be an integrator.

Before you go too far down the gray market hardware road, I'll add that while Crestron doesn't have a major problem here [read: wide spread availability], they could police this neighborhood a bit better...and it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if they did.

however, everyone DOES talk **** about them. They talk about how you can do the same with other systems etc. It pretty much boils down to dealers not being able to buy in for 15k in JUST for demo equipment and finding someone able to program crestron in house and doing it the right way. otherwise they have to outsource to someone like steve and then the company gets charged a premium from the CAIP. The premium is worth it in the big picture. Its up to the a/v companies to be able to design and SELL a system to a client that has the loot to pay. then the a/v company gets refered to another for crestron. and once you have a dozen or so crestrons systems installed the big picture is more noticeable, large profits.

Ie crestron is not for a/v companies that do 10-30k systems daily. Its for companies that do 70k and higher systems. Hence why so many a/v companies talk trash about crestron.

I laugh when representatives from a/v companies that i meet talk trash about crestron.

and you get screwed.


If you have noticed most people in this day in age have used at least 1 or 2 a/v companies and have switched because of the lack of detail in the job ETC etc. THIS IS THE rEASON they switch and not for any other reason.

If a company treats you right, YOU STAY WITH THEM. at least with my company thats how its been.

Ive had old clients from old companies try to get in touch with me and I coudlnt help them because I was working for another new company. hen i left that company the same client gave me a ring and still wanted me to work for him... If you leave an impression on a client it stays with them..

about upgrading equipment. Most issues with crestron stem from programmers who code in a way that causes glitches.

you can program crestron in a variety of ways form what i have heard. However there are only a few ways to program correctly. crestron software is open source so you can program the way you want. like i said before though being open source can lead to problems if less then experienced programmers are doing the job.

Im sure steve will correct me if im wrong on this, but from what ive heard what ive said holds true

&gt;you provide Crestron with proof of purchase (new or used) of Crestron product. You pay a reasonable fee for the software. The software uses a registration/activation code that only allows it to program devices w/ listed serial numbers. As part of the transaction, you agree that Crestron isn't responsible for you screwing things up and won't support your changes.


The software does not currently provide any means of "activation"...though the idea has merit on several levels.


&gt;Any integrator looking to circumvent a real certification would quickly catch Crestron's attention, requesting activation codes for dozens of pieces of equipment.


The idea of slaving a software activation key to specific hardware via serial number, while useful in such a scenario, isn't likely to be useful enough in a broader sense to be worth implementing. I really don't believe that there's a large base of [potential] programmers out there, currently shut out of the system, that Crestron would want to "let in" with this or any other change of policy.


&gt;Gray market is handled by refusing to give authorization codes for known gray market serial numbers. (Assuming they have that information available.)


They can and do track what serial numbers they shipped to whom, so this is technically possible, though the task of determining whether a box is gray or white is an all together more difficult job. I'd rather see them spend resources keeping gray/transshipped goods off the market, than try to limit programming access to said hardware, after the fact.


&gt;Again - not sure of how the programming process works now, and how difficult it would be to implement a 'locking' system like that.

&gt;Lastly - I'd even be somewhat happy with a "lite" version of the suite. Maybe you CAIPs get a full-blown development suite, and end-users have a more limited toolset? Although that may work in the opposite direction, users trying to do things that they know are possible without realizing you need the powerful tools to do it.


I suppose you could limit access to Simpl+ [the "C" style language] and require end-user programmers to use only SimplWindows [graphical logic gate interface]? I'm not sure how useful that would be for Crestron though?

There's a Yahoo Group that a lot of Crestron programmers hang out on...a few of which are end-users. If you're really interested in that route, you should talk to them about how they navigated the policies of the software restrictions, with the ultimate intent of talking to Crestron and/or some Crestron dealers about if or how you might be able to program/maintain your own systems. I think there might be some little used/known policies within Crestron that could get you in the door, though you'd likely have to commit to attending at least one 3-4 day training class.

If you're interested in taking this a step further, email me [steve AT avdg DOT net] and I'll give you a link to the Yahoo group along with a member that I think might be better qualified to discuss end-user programming.

The core intent of the restriction on the software is to keep people who are not dealers [or CAIP's] from pretending they are.

There is no practical method, within the current system, to let in end-user programmers 'en mass and still keep out the trunk slammers.

What may appear to be 'reprogramming a button from one channel to another' can end up being a *lot* more complex. Of course this can largely hinge on how [well] the existing code was written to begin with, but that's life with systems of this nature. There's really no way Crestron can support an end-user in this scenario, unless said end-user already has a good working knowledge of the software [Crestron programming experience and/or training].

It's not like changing a macro on a universal remote you bought at Best Buy...there the software is locked down and a given process/sequence can *always* be used to archive a specific outcome. That's something a manufacturer can support directly to the end-user.

that will allow there name to be trashed when people try programming there stuff and screw it up.

i doubt crestron would ever open the floodgates to scrutiny by people who THINK they are savvy enough to program crestron?????

Your line of thought on this leads me to belive regardless if you respect crestron, you dont respect there standpoint on allowng people other then crestron programmers the ability to program.

its simple, crestrons makes the rules for there products. YES they are stringent. I at first was pissed about there ways. They have them for a reason. there the best in protecting there dealers....

and also, you cna program favorites form the cable or sat box to keep the programming required in the crestron to a minimum.

but i get your point

...about the fact that the end-user not being able to make any programming changes, regardless of how simple they are or why they're needed.

That said, one could [and perhaps should] program preset stations to behave like a car radio. Press/release to change stations, press/hold to store current station to that location [and display corresponding channel number as button text].

Your point is well taken though...actual programming changes will almost always require the hiring [and paying] of a authorized programmer/dealer.

fvckin lazy ass execs, they get paid insane amounts of loot and do small amount of work compared to the guys lower on the totem pole

we did this because we wanted all the conf rooms to have news channels avail. after 9/11.

Some sites have DirecTV, some sites have Comcast, some sites have XYZ service.

I don't even know what the channel #s are from one site to the next. Surely I can't expect my execs to remember them...

A button with a CNN or MSNBC logo on it, most people can grasp.

all of the things you're talking about. I'll let you know how things go. Hopefully i'll be able to find a happy medium like you have set up here, in which i'll be satisfied with the final product and my left over cash :)