<ul><li><a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/blog/msgs/346.phtml">klik</a></li></ul>

The article talks about slim sales margins and the high cost of building an Audi dealership vs Lexus.

There's only minor mention of all inclusive maintenance and no real connection to the goal of increasing dealer profit unless I missed it.

general consumer. Hence IF they land the customer for servicing, they will make more money. On the other hand, they will be competing with independents for that service dollar, and now they have to differentiate themselves from the best independents in the area.

So between trying to hit performance bonuses and more competition, the dealers will have to improve. Now they are rather complacent.

Many of the franchise owners have had the franchise since the 60 Minutes fiasco. They are comfortable running the place on a shoestring as a secondary line (most carry other lines). Audi had to let them do that, because they weren't in a postion to dictate terms. To reach the next level, there needs to be incentive to upgrade the facility and people.

Ok, so if I elect to pay this $550 ON TOP of whatever my final deal turns out to be, will I get the same Audi Advantage I have with my 2005 A6?

And, if you answer in the affirmative, does this or could this perpetuate the issues you suggested -- for instance dealerships that have not done any upgrades since 60 Minutes?

Or, does the payment of the $550 pay the dealership at a higher rate than the current Audi Advantage?

Follow up -- while it certainly appears that the service intervals are at much longer intervals for BMW's, there is, apparently, no limit to what you can get -- we have had our wiper blades replaced twice in 9 months with the Bimmer. Audi is more restrictive, for instance.

I understand the premise -- but am I feeding the problem IF I buy my 29th Audi and I pony up the $550? Will I get grade B service since I am not paying for my oil change at the time of service (using the oil change as an example.)

And, I remember pre Audi Advantage service expenses as being "outrageous."

Everytime I turned around my 1978 Audi 5000 S and my 1979 Silver Fox GTI needed a $100 "routine" service call.

And our first 1988 BMW 325ix (we've always had AWD) was even more expensive to "maintain."


I still don't get it -- my A6 was 53,286 which included the Audi in arm rest phone cradle -- I cannot imagine NOT getting it if it were $53,786 MSRP but there was no mention of "paying" for the service.

Maybe to attract Lexus customers Audi thinks charging for maint will be no big deal since Lexus service wasn't free.

But, one would expect that Audi will need to have service costs and intervals that are lower in cost and longer between maint and that the Audi is equal to or more reliable than that expected by Lexus owners.

For pity's sake, when I debate Lexus owners they don't get the "joy of driving" thing until they have been granted virtual immunity from anything less than 101% reliability etc.

No EXTRA charge maintenance is a key component to these types of customers.

Conversely, long time Audi loyalists, and I mean those that kept on buying during and after Unintended Acceleration, may think Audi is peeing in their Post Toasties.

I support Audi's desires to improve their dealer networks. I am confused NOT about the way they are going about it, I am confused WHY they need to price it this way.

Yeah, right!!! I'm sure there will be a 1-2% price increase. Bottom line is that they are screwing future Audi buyers. Sure, some will buy Audi no matter what. But others will take a pass on Audi, is this what they mean about fattening dealer margins?

Another note, what 60 minutes report are you talking about. Are you talking about the one from a few decades ago? If it is, then that is a waaaaay long time to now prodding the dealers.

This strategy reminds me of my old neighbor who leases cars for 2-3 years --- no maintenance whatsoever, just top off the fluids. And I'm not joking either. Anyone wants to buy a CPO Acura in a few years?

The money will go to dealers who show actual performance gains, rather than blanket all dealers. Makes sense to reward dealers who do make customers happy.

Years after the 60 Minutes debacle, people were still questioning me about it - as faced by salespeople at Audi dealers even today. Ask anyone who has worked at a dealer for a while.

I've had people trade in cars where they miles are well in excess of 50K, and there is no paper in the filter element any more - it's all clumps in the oil sump - no oil changes. Luxury brand or not, all used cars are a crap shoot.

if you really want to be scientific about it, get your oil analyzed: www.blackstone-labs.com<ul><li><a href="http://freshalloyclub.groupee.net/editorials/snake_oil.html">Audi dealers use usually Mann filters</a></li></ul>

"Ok, so if I elect to pay this $550 ON TOP of whatever my final deal turns out to be, will I get the same Audi Advantage I have with my 2005 A6?"

Ask a dealer. They have the particulars.

"Or, does the payment of the $550 pay the dealership at a higher rate than the current Audi Advantage?"

Depends on the model. Some yes, others no. Overall, slightly better. But the buyer gets the option in the case that their local dealer sucks.

"Follow up -- while it certainly appears that the service intervals are at much longer intervals for BMW's, there is, apparently, no limit to what you can get -- we have had our wiper blades replaced twice in 9 months with the Bimmer. Audi is more restrictive, for instance."

I think oil is only changed on a BMW when the service light goes on - not at set intervals. This can be longer or shorter intervals than Audi's. I'm not sure why wiper blades would need to be replaced twice in 9 months unless defective. Even in LA with the horrible smog, heat and humidity, I replaced wiper blades once a year.

"I understand the premise -- but am I feeding the problem IF I buy my 29th Audi and I pony up the $550? Will I get grade B service since I am not paying for my oil change at the time of service (using the oil change as an example.)"

Hard to say until it goes into action and dealers have time to adjust. There will be a time of adjustment that will be uncomfortable for owner and dealer.

"Everytime I turned around my 1978 Audi 5000 S and my 1979 Silver Fox GTI needed a $100 "routine" service call.

And our first 1988 BMW 325ix (we've always had AWD) was even more expensive to "maintain.""

See Lexus service costs from the UK (can't find US costs off the cuff)
http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/knowledge/index.php?page=index_v2&amp;id=34&amp;c=root

"I still don't get it -- my A6 was 53,286 which included the Audi in arm rest phone cradle -- I cannot imagine NOT getting it if it were $53,786 MSRP but there was no mention of "paying" for the service."

Not sure I understand. Audi isn't pushing the inclusive service in their advertising much longer if at all.

"But, one would expect that Audi will need to have service costs and intervals that are lower in cost and longer between maint and that the Audi is equal to or more reliable than that expected by Lexus owners."

Why do you expect that? Is a Mercedes cheaper to maintain than an Audi? How about a BMW out of maintence? Are those dealers better than Lexus dealers?

"No EXTRA charge maintenance is a key component to these types of customers."

Is it? I bought my A3 regardless of whether maintenance was thrown in or not. It was the car I wanted. Period. Just like almost any other car out there. None of the competition was offering inclusive service, nor was this a feature that pushed me over the edge.

"Conversely, long time Audi loyalists, and I mean those that kept on buying during and after Unintended Acceleration, may think Audi is peeing in their Post Toasties."

I think it's a welfare mentality and it isn't doing the brand any long term favours. Sure people are used to their little perks, but it's keeping the dealers from moving forward and improving themselves the way they should. Audi buyers have long paid far less for their cars than other German brand except VW. We're seeing the results of that strategy in out-moded dealers and staff that often isn't of the calibre and/or paid enough to care.

"I support Audi's desires to improve their dealer networks. I am confused NOT about the way they are going about it, I am confused WHY they need to price it this way."

It puts the onus on the dealers to earn the customer's business. It also makes the sale dept less dependent on the service dept to make the money for the dealer. Now they must pull their own weight, and the only way to do that is to offer the service people who are buying this car expect.

I do, for the time being that BMW offers all inclusive service and faced with the fact that I can only assume "new customers" have to be the goal (well new, additional customers and repeat customers that is), believe Audi has perhaps started this ahead of the curve.

Audi has better stats, I hope, than can be guessed from reading our many posts here and elesewhere; but, Audi still seems to be a car that people buy when they feel they can "take the chance" on reliability and service.

I am my own worst enemy here, too.

I personally wouldn't rely on Consumer's Reports for a car. Folks, generally speaking, who own Japanese Luxury Performance cars seem to live and die by "reliability" ratings and when they want to argue with me they point to (and I cannot defend) this that or the other magazine's ratings of European cars often being below Japanese cars and they claim "a boring Lexus is better than an exciting Audi if the Lexus is on the road and the Audi is in the shop."

Despite my experiences to the contrary, this perception of spotty dealerships and spotty reliability lingers.

If Audi were already in the top three sellers of Premium cars in the US, rather than fighting with Acura for the bottom spot (thinking of the A6 as the Audi model under discussion), maybe this would be less of an issue.

The Audi family has a lot of allure to/for a long time buyer like me. Yet, to repeat, the attraction motivation ought to be to lure new folks to the family whilst keeping current ones.

2005 was a great year in Audi of America's history -- it remains to be seen if making this change is, as I suspect, premature.

Audi is NOT off my shopping list -- it is just now faced, in my case, with my willingness to include more competition.

They say competition breeds greatness -- let's hope so.

AoA has been increasing the prices very gradually in steps, and actually did not implement the latest planned increase due to currency adjustments.

Besides, you have inflation and the natural rise in pricing.<ul><li><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4647928.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4647928.stm</a</li></ul>

They took a huge hit as a result.

This Euro thing is a red herring. Even if the dollar was at 2002 levels, Audi won't necessarily sell any more cars, as a strong dollar means other European cars would be cheaper too. Most would probably flock to BMW and MB.

Correct me if I'm wrong there was an increase in base msrp between the 05 and 06 A6 models and I'm willing to bet there will be an increase from 06 to 07 A6.

The 10% increase in dollars means AOA costs of cars decrease. They make more money selling the same car. Factoring in price increases and it should make AOA more profitable. But in totality it is not because of costs elsewhere.

Considering the $4500 in trunk money they had to shell out to move out the brand new 05 A6 model in fall 0f 2005(or the subsidized 2 year lease), it stands to reason to increase profits for Audi and the dealers they should make their cars more reliable and desirable. Both are important for initial sales and resale values down the line.

Inflation is "the natural rise in price." And inflation has been relatively stable despite oil shocks for the past two years.

But, as you pointed out, if Audi's goal is for customers to develop a relationship with the dealer, it's working so far (even with free maintenance in place)...in the past 6 months of ownership, the car has been down to the service dept 5 times for repair issues.

Seems to me if they want to fatten dealer profits they ought to share it with the dealers. With the local Audi dealer hourly rate at $124.00 (for reference, BMW is $99, indie shops are $75) does Audi honestly think customers are going to the dealers for service? [And if dealer lowers their prices to compete, it decreases their profits and now dealer is back in the same position as with the maintenance program]

I think doing away with Audi Advantage program is about Audi cutting costs period. Their explanation of shoring up dealer profits is just a smoke screen to placate the dealers that could be hurt by this.

One last note, used car is a crap shoot, but the benefits of maintenance program is that dealer can keep track of maintenance records. BMW has service history reports and I'm sure Audi has it too. This program reduces the risks of buying a car that that was topped off rather than serviced and allows dealers to charge more for the car.

Interesting article on hedges. And I do believe most of MB hedges expired in 2005.<ul><li><a href="http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/pks4/files/international_readings/As_Exchange_Rates_Swing,_Carmakers_Try_to_Duck_(NY T_%20Jan_2004).pdf">http://www.som.yale.edu/faculty/pks4/files/international_readings/As_Exchange_Rates_Swing,_Carmak

My A6 3.2 was almost exactly $52,000 here in the US. I build the exact same car on the German Website, and it was the equivalent of $80,000 (in Euros in August last year).

They STILL make a lot less money on the same car over here compared to Europe, even with the recent dollar/Euro exchange increase. In fact, they don't make any money on the cars they sell here, else they would be profitable.

AoA is not responsible for what your local dealer charges per hour - the dealer is independent and can charge whatever they feel is right, AoA has no say in that.

The Audi Advantage has been abused by many Audi owners - I know several people that tracked their TT's, S4's, etc. - and then had their brakes done 3 or 4 times before the 50k mile mark. Personally, I don't mind paying a few hundred bucks for service until I reach the 50k mark. I chose to buy a $50k performance luxury car, I can't complain that it doesn't get the same gasmileage as a Prius and I certainly won't complain if I spend an extra $550 over the 4 year period that was previously covered by the Audi Advantage program.

My A6 has been in the shop twice since July, for minor things that got taken care of immediately, professionally and with a loander car (brand new A4 and A6) provided.

I got my A6 because it is the safest, best looking (inside and out), most technically advanced (MMI, AWD, etc.) and well rounded car in its class and price range.

I didn't get it because it was a few thousand dollars cheaper than an ugly (inside and out), iDrive infested, poser BMW 5-series. I got it because it's the best car out there for me.

My previous 1990 Audi 100 in Germany saved my life in a high-speed crash on the Autobahn. My TTR was the most fun car to have when I was in my early 30's, my A8L was an awsome cruiser. My current A6 is flat out the best car I have ever sat in, with the exception of the D3 A8. None of these cars ever let me down or put me in a dangerous situation, on the contrary.

I hardly get to drive my own vehicle, due to constant air travel and rental cars (I hated driving every car I have ever been able to rent, which are usually cheapo US, Korean or Japanese models - I always miss my A6). I usually can't wait to get out of the airport and into my A6 for the drive home, it's the best part of the journey.

If someone bases their decision on which car they buy on the paid scheduled maintenance, they are missing the big picture of Audi.

I can't see myself driving anything but an Audi, and I've driven Audis' since 1987.

I am no economist, but it seems to me that if Audi let's prices climb in NA because of euro-dollar rates, then they will just put themselfs at a competitive disadvantage. I would think they would balance the price increase and eat some of it to stay in the ballpark with other American offerings like Cadillac. So I am not buying the euro/dollar excuse so much.

As someone else pointed out they failed to hedge like BMW and Porsche...And their products haven't really taken off in the US. They also missed the boat on the SUV market a few years ago.

The fact that Audi in Germany cost more proves nothing. Since you travelled to Europe, then you should know that just about everything in Europe or Germany is more expensive than in the US. People like you will buy anything Audi puts out. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that people have choices and now is not the time to yank out the maintenance plan. Especially since resale/residuals are low.

And the cost of maintenance at $550 remains to be seen. For other brands, dealers markup the cost of maintenance. And for those who take out 2 year leases, they'll probably skip maintenance altogether. And I do agree 100% with curbing abuses with the maintenance plan. But Audi already addressed that for 2005 as they limited to one time brake pad change per wheel.

And no one here or anywhere said that there future decisions will be based solely on maintenance plan or lack thereof. Those who will walk away base their decision on a confluence of factors such as reliability, resale value, performance, and cost of maintenance.

And while I do not have as much experience with Audi products as you, I really don't want to. My decision was based on torsen, trunk money, employee discount, supplier discount, and it had maintenance like my BMW. I wasn't impressed with handling but decided to give it a try. Overall, I like it especially with the foul weather as of late, but I am really taken aback with the plethora of little problems that have taken the dealer multiple attempts to correct.

"My decision was based on torsen, trunk money, employee discount, supplier discount, and it had maintenance like my BMW. "

Some people place more importance on other factors ;-)

but without the discounts, I probably would have gotten another BMW, which has factors/attributes I like (during dry weather, of course).

And another gripe with maintenance, when they do away with maintenance plan, I hope they make some sort of access panel to make it easier to get to the oil drain plug.

Or if Audi feels the receipts they do have from independent mechanics don't prove what they want to see? Seems like this opens up a whole new way for Audi to skimp on the warranty and makes everything that much more complicated.

as for your other gripe, hang on to your Audi<ul><li><a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/blog/msgs/355.phtml">and you won't have anything to complain about</a></li></ul>

manufacturers require. You read the manual, you use the correct parts and oil specified and follow the schedule. VW has been doing it for years.

(their cars have always cost less than the other German competition here), and so therefore they can't hand out freebies so generously now?

Say one person made $50K a year and the other $25K. Now take away 10% of their earnings. All other things being equal, since the person making $25K was almost surely already spending a larger percentage of their income on neccessities, it's more likely they will feel that cut more than the person making $50K, who might have to cut back on some luxuries.

It doesn't cost BMW or Mercedes any more to build a car than Audi even though the consumer pays thousands more for similar cars. That means the extra money people pay for the badge can flow into dealer and corporate coffers. Simple as that.

So I don't see using the weak conversion as an excuse works, everyone is effected. Perhaps we are saying the same thing.

than Mercedes and BMW to start with, so currency fluctuations effect them more.

And I've never had so much problems (mostly electrical!!!) in the first 5.5 months of ownership than with Audi...and BMW's engines tend to be more reliable than Audi.

And Audi has the same oil level electronics in European cars. ;)

high sulphur fuel content along with fan relays burning down cars and garages are just aberations? All German brands can do better when it comes to reliability - and BMW is certainly no exception.

What model and year BMW did you own?

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/5350596-1.html">"Laundry list"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/5519528-1.html">"what's that about engines"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60m5/7351038-1.html">"The new M5 is leaking fluids already"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/5907995-1.html">"BMW owners know the score"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/3851652-1.html">"two"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/4842332-1.html">"three"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/7476097-1.html">"four"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/7430308-1.html">"five"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/5944564-1.html">"Consumer Reports has doubts"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/4908555-1.html">"electronics half baked"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/4877677-1.html">"two"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/7286821-1.html">"Active steering problem abound"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/5698788-1.html">"Seats of fire"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/6071872-1.html">"two"</a>

<a href="http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/6064458-1.html">"three"</a>

_______________

Some TSB/recalls

Make : BMW
Model : 5 SERIES
Year : 2004
Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE

Service Bulletin Num : 1220105
Date of Bulletin: OCT 01, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10012788

Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Summary:
LOSS OF POWER WHILE DECELERATING AND TURNING OR COMING TO A STOP. *EH BMW 5 SERIES, 6 SERIES, 7 SERIES PRODUCED BETWEEN 09/03 TO 8/04. *TT
__________________

Make : BMW
Model : 5 SERIES
Year : 2004
Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE

Service Bulletin Num : 110504
Date of Bulletin: JUN 01, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10012805

Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
M62TU/S62 SECONDARY AIR DIAGNOSTICS AND AIR DELIVERY PASSAGE CLEANING PROCEDURE. *EH UPDATE. *TT

____________________

Make : BMW
Model : 5 SERIES
Year : 2004
Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE

Service Bulletin Num : 07142004
Date of Bulletin: JUL 14, 2004
NHTSA Item Number: 10010968

Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE
Summary:
PART 2. SERVICE ACTION &amp; DELIVERY STOP. *TT

_________________


Make : BMW
Model : 5 SERIES
Year : 2004
Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE

Service Bulletin Num : 07122004
Date of Bulletin: JUL 12, 2004
NHTSA Item Number: 10010966

Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE
Summary:
RETAIL DELIVERY STOP ON 2004 MY 8 &amp; 12 CYLINDER VEHICLES PRODUCED MAY 2004 THROUGH JULY 2004. DUE TO A MANUFACTURING ERROR, THE ENGINE CONTROL MODULE MAIL FAIL. THIS COULD CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO STALL UNEXPECTEDLY OR FAIL TO START AT ALL. *TT

<center><img src="http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2004055bfull.gif"></center><p>
that's due to poor quality, high sulfur fuels in limited parts of US.

Audi on the other hand had sludge problems that affected their most popular engine line. And both Consumer Reports and JD Powers put Audi on the bottom end of the spectrum when it comes to mechanical reliability well below BMW...


And why don't you run the tsb/recalls for Audi products...

And lets see what problems mechanical and electric Audi has had in the past few months...


Post Date Issue Date TSB Number Title
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Fri, Sep 2, 2005 600503 Body - Sunroof Opens Again When Closing
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Thu, Sep 8, 2005 550504 Body - Automatic Trunk Opening System Erratic Operation
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Thu, Sep 8, 2005 910513 Audio System - Door Speakers Intermittently Inoperative
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Fri, Sep 9, 2005 910514 Navigation System - 'Please Check Navigation DVD' Msg.
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Fri, Sep 9, 2005 910515 Accessories - Telematics and or V60 Digital Phone Diagnostics
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Thu, Sep 15, 2005 940505 Lighting - Interior Switch Illumination Always ON
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Mon, Sep 19, 2005 910516 Audio System - DTC 00858 Found During Interrogation
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Tue, Oct 4, 2005 900505 Instruments - Drivers Information Display Fades
Thu, Dec 1, 2005 Mon, Oct 17, 2005 910517 Navigation System - Various Operational Concerns
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Thu, Oct 20, 2005 370504 Engine Controls and or Auto Trans - MIL ON and or DTC 18181 and or Auto Trans Shudder
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Thu, Oct 20, 2005 870503 Air Conditioning - Whining and or Howling Noise From Engine Compartment
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Tue, Oct 25, 2005 320502 Auto Trans - MIL ON and or DTC P17125 Stored in Memory
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Fri, Oct 28, 2005 190505 Cooling System - Auxiliary Coolant Pump Leaks
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Fri, Oct 28, 2005 240505 Engine Controls - Cold Engine Stumble and or Warm Engine Stall
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Wed, Nov 2, 2005 150503 Engine - Upper Engine Oil Leak Diagnosis
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Thu, Nov 3, 2005 010505 Engine Controls - MIL ON and or DTC P2106 Set
Wed, Dec 21, 2005 Mon, Nov 7, 2005 010506 Engine Controls - MIL ON and or DTC P2106 Set
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Nov 14, 2005 960501 Starting - No Start Using Advance Key Start Button
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Wed, Nov 16, 2005 940506 Lighting and or Instruments - Auto Lamp Warning Lamp ON
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Thu, Nov 17, 2005 690506 Air Bag System - Warning Lamp ON and or Sporadic DTC's
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Nov 21, 2005 010507 Engine Controls - Runs Rough Cold and or MIL ON and or Misfire DTC's
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Nov 21, 2005 010508 Engine Controls - False DTC P0441 Triggered by ECM
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Tue, Nov 22, 2005 010509 Engine Controls - Engine Intermittently Won't crank
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Tue, Nov 22, 2005 610502 Body - Convertible Top Inoperative and or DTC 2000 Stored
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Tue, Nov 22, 2005 910518 Audio System - No Bass With Fader All The Way to Rear
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Nov 28, 2005 600504 Body - Sunroof Glass Jammed and or Sunroof Inoperative
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Dec 5, 2005 190506 Cooling System - Rear Coolant Pipe Leaks
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Dec 5, 2005 690507 Air Bag System - Service Precautions
Wed, Jan 25, 2006 Mon, Dec 5, 2005 910519 Voice Recognition System - Cancels Request
Mon, Feb 13, 2006 Fri, Dec 23, 2005 910520 Audio System - Speakers Hiss With radio Turned OFF
Mon, Feb 13, 2006 Fri, Dec 23, 2005 940507 Adaptive Lighting - Headlight Range Control Warning
Mon, Feb 13, 2006 Tue, Jan 3, 2006 690601 Campaign - Air Bag Module Programming for SRS Lamp ON
Mon, Feb 13, 2006 Thu, Jan 5, 2006 600601 Body - Sliding Roof Buzzing and or Wind Noise

Audi is hardly the paragon of reliability...and they want to cut maintenance?<ul><li><a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/1434473.phtml">And speaking of blown engines</a></li></ul>

was with US cars for the most part, but then that is a huge market. On a number of older inline 6 cylinder engines, warping heads were quite common (European Car magainze did a BMW 5 series run-down a while ago). I've had family members who have gone through several heads on their 5 series. In fact they have had several generations of 5 series as business cars, and the cars are always needing something.

I'm mainly focusing on the current A6 and 5 series since that is what this is about. My point is simply that BMW has it's own fare share of problems and that serious issues seem to appear more often on the BMW E60 forums than they do on the C6 Audi forums.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=104

http://forums.e60.net/lofiversion/index.php/f2.html

http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e60/

Alas BMW is not shown for '05 or '04 on alldata, so we can't compare. It looks like you collected TSBs for <b>all</b> Audis, since the A6 doesn't have a convertible top as shown your list ;-)

2004 results:

Top 5 "most reliable"


* Lexus IS 300

* Acura RL*

* Toyota Camry 4-cylinder

* Toyota Avalon

* Lexus LS 430

Top 5 "least reliable"


* BMW 5 Series

* VW Passat all-wheel drive

* Pontiac Grand Prix super-charged

* Saab 9-3

* Volvo S60

*Ranking of the old RL

______________

For all that we both can offer individual insights, anybody can have a good car or bad car. The worst vehicle I've ever owned was a Toyota pickup. Despite being a Toyota fan up to that point, the experience was so dreadful that I can't imagine owning one any more.<ul><li><a href="http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78029">http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78029</a</li></ul>

engines...just take a look at the A4/B6 forums and there are a plethora of issues with that engine. And I doubt you'd disagree that forced induction engines are more problematic than naturally aspirated ones.

Also, the sulfur issue affected the Nikasil engine which was M60 V-8, which made up a small percentage of cars sold in the US and only a percentage of those engines had serious problems. The M62 nikasil coated V6 was never imported into the US.

My favorite threads are the one that start off with "My extended warranty just saved me $2,500!!!!"

And I did post a general Audi tsb..I'm bad...But just the A6 engine related issues, here's a few highlights:

Make : AUDI Model : A6 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC
Service Bulletin Num : 0402 Date of Bulletin: NOV 02, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10018217
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
OIL LEAKS FROM UPPER ENGINE AREAS, DIAGNOSTIC GUIDELINES. *TT
Check to Request Research. Submit below.

Make : AUDI Model : A6 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC
Service Bulletin Num : 0505 Date of Bulletin: OCT 28, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10017783
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
COOLANT LEAKAGE AROUND AUXILIARY COOLANT PUMP. COOLANT LIGHT MAY BE ILLUMINATED. *TT
Check to Request Research. Submit below.

Make : AUDI Model : A6 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC
Service Bulletin Num : 0505 Date of Bulletin: OCT 28, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10018227
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
ENGINE STUMBLES AFTER COLD START / WARM ENGINE MAY ATTEMPT TO STALL IN IDLE WHEN ENGAGING GEAR WITH VEHICLE STATIONARY. *TT
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Make : AUDI Model : A6 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC
Service Bulletin Num : 190504 Date of Bulletin: MAY 16, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10015583
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
THE COOLANT RESERVOIR IS DIAGNOSED TO BE LEAKING AND INTENDED TO BE REPLACED. *TT
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Make : AUDI Model : A6 Year : 2005
Manufacturer : VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC
Service Bulletin Num : 0501 Date of Bulletin: APR 19, 2005
NHTSA Item Number: 10015101
Component: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING
Summary:
SECONDARY AIR INJECTION (AIR) PUMP MOTOR -V101- IS NOISY. *TT
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I have seen a fair amount of complaints in the A6 C6 but maybe it's because BMW drivers complain the loudest!

And believe it or not, the car that gave me the least amount of problem was a Ford. I had a Taurus that I drove to 40K with only one visit to dealer for battery problem at 35,900 miles. Family had another Taurus that was flawless until 105,000 miles where water pump broke.

With all these problems both Audi and BMW seem to be having, they should extending warranty (power train) as others like Honda, Infiniti, etc. have done to keep and increase market shares.

. . . why do you bother to own one?

I have to wonder how many problems are due to people chipping, using non-spec oil, and not observing proper warm-up and cool-down on turbo engines? If you spend any time at all on the VW forums, you know cutting corners and ghetto tuning are often the norm.

Again, it's history since the 2.0T has taken over, and problems with the 1.8t diminished greatly with the synthetic oil requirement.

That still ignores the issues the E60 5 series is having now ;-) Noisy air pumps don't keep a car from running - granted the other items could stop you from arriving at your destination if they apply to your car. Now let's see BMW's TSBs and recalls.......

Mass market cars like Hondas, Nissans and Toyotas are usually simpler cars with developement costs shared among sales of 1/2 million cars a year, rather than 100,000 a year.

BMW is off its rockers with the bi-turbo, but I'd be happy as long as it has chain and not a belt.

Also, the e60 engine were updated starting with MY2006, so those problems are history, too. But in comparing the mechanical quality (JD Powers)of the 2006 A6 with 2006 530i/xi, Audi has 3/5 compared to 5/5 for BMW. Even if you compared 05 Audi to 05 BMW, results are the same. FWIW, the 2004 5 series gets same as Audi...3/5.

Using the data from "ratings" from Edmunds which is based off of JD Powers (initial, mid-term, and long-term reliability ratings) BMW 5 series as a whole gets higher marks than the A6.<ul><li><a href="http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/bmw/5series/100344931/ratings_jdpower.html">http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/bmw/5series/100344931/ratings_jdpower.html</a</li></ul>

JD is not even close to impartial, and therefore useless.

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/jdpower.php

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_6_184/ai_n6082909

BMW may not introduce turbos to North America - it would undercut the M3 (even the future M3) with just a chip - which tuners will provide in short order - and after reviewing VAG's problems with warranties and resulting bad press/ratings, it may not be a smart idea. On the other hand, Audi has some stuff it's sleeve......

Oh come on, April. I hear that same response from the BMW or MB crowd whenever any company, like consumer reports, jd powers, or whatever trashes their cars. =)

It sucks that the European gets all the toys. Like diesels, lean burn fsi, real time traffic on nav and now bi-turbo. I know it's about epa regs but clean diesel or gasoline can't be that hard to produce if the Europeans can do it...so can we!
So what does Audi has up it's sleeve? And does it include free maintenance? hmmmmmmmmmmmm? =P

Yes, people do drag out the same old aguments, but then as you very well know, it's all about what questions you ask, how you ask them, and what the person's expectations were in the first place. After all, only the very happy and the very disgruntled will answer surveys.

My Alfa Milano Verde has been to the Yukon twice, the race track for hammerings many times, and yet the engine keeps going strong at 257,000 miles. Has it been reliable? More so than my Japanese cars with less than half the miles. Low maintenance? Not in your wildest dreams. I knew that going in. I think a lot of European car owners who are unhappy with their cars, may be driving the wrong car or have the wrong attitude.