Hey Everyone, I was going to simply post this in response to some of the opinions in <a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/32411.phtml">this thread</a>, but instead I decided to say it to everyone. Just want to give people something to think about.
There seems to be this general consensus that whenever anything goes wrong with one of our Audi's, that Audi somehow instantly owes us the world. I feel bad for the people who have cars they can't drive, and Audi certainly needs to do something to make it right. But this idea that that they should just whip out a new car, or give you <a href="http://www.knw.cz/laetitia/photos/swim/vs55.jpg">Laetitia Casta</a> to have sex with until yours is fixed, is really excessive (ok, I made this one up, nobody really asked for it).
Honestly, I think everyone is being really selfish about this. We get all excited about these cars, we're really psyched that Audi makes them and brings them to us. We want them to be as inexpensive as reasonably possible... And then as soon as something goes wrong, *poof* all of the sudden, Audi is the enemy, they are a bottomless pit of replacement cars and money, and we think we desrerve for them to uproot their entire budget and business plan b/c we had to spend an entire month of our lives doing something less than drive this wonderful car.
You should only be looking for compensation that is equivalent to the burden which you're experiencing. And more importantly, you should be looking for the solution that is the least impact on *both* you and Audi, not the one that is most ideal to you no matter what the impact on Audi.
These things are freaking hard to make - Audi is your partner in this, not your enemy. They make awesome cars so you can drive awesome cars. These new cars that you want don't come off of some new car tree, they come right out of Audi's bottom line. Screwing them financially makes things worse for all of us. It make them less profitable so they have to charge more, and it makes them regret bringing high performance cars to us in the first place.
The obvious solution is for Audi to either pause your lease contract until you get the car back, or give you a loaner. Not even both, because either solution puts you about where you were before you bought the car. You either have $800+/mo of additional income now to deal with not having a car, or you have a car.
Sure, a rental or loander probably isn't nearly as nice as an S4. But for a month, you can deal with it. When your company sends you on a business trip for two weeks, do you demand that they pay for a Jaguar from Hertz b/c you drive a luxury car at home? Of course not, you suck it up b/c that's life, sometimes it throws you curves.
One month isn't a big enough chunk of your life that you should want Audi to swallow a $25k donut b/c of it - especially if the month is lost already. You getting a replacement car (or Laetitia for that matter) when your car is a week away from being done isn't going to get that month back for you.
Pushing your car off on someone else b/c it "might" have problems due to all this work is selfish too. If it doesn't, then all that expense & frustration was worthless. If it does, you've just made somebody else's life worse instead of your own - I wouldn't wish this kind of frustration on anybody, and that's exactly what you're doing. That guy could well be somebody else on this forum who helps you do cool things to your car. Hell, they could take two of your cars, fix 'em, switch 'em, and give them back to you. You might feel better, but nothing would actually *be* better.
The impact of our decisions and actions does not simply stop once it reaches beyond our perception. The world doesn't owe us anything, we aren't entitled to be treated like kings just b/c we happen to be able to afford a $50k car. Ask for the least that you can survive with, not the most you can get away with.
10-15-2003, 02:57 PM
At the same time -- this is a 1st year introduction on a new platform and a "brandy-new" engine.
Some infant mortality, design/production errors are bound to surface. That's normal.
Work with Audi... support our brethen who are affected... continue to work on resolutions in a professional manner.
Yup. I agree. - rb
10-15-2003, 03:25 PM
I'm not saying one replacement car is going to put Audi out of business. I'm saying that if you run into inconvenience, expect something reasonable, and you might not be disappointed.
10-15-2003, 03:26 PM
they don't make any cars that are this close to the edge of the envelope. This isn't just your father's A4. I fully expect there to me more "bad" S4's than Accords or is300's (or whatever that thing is). In fact, if there *aren't*, then that tells me Audi wasn't pushing the envelope hard *enough* with this car.
Would you have rather waited another year for them to get every single kink worked out? For $53k, I want something that's never been done before, dammit.
Although admittedly it is starting to seem as they pushed it a little too hard ;-)
10-15-2003, 04:21 PM
hopefully it remains fine!
10-15-2003, 05:16 PM
First, as consumers, our voice and our pocketbooks are our tools. Second, if Audi wants to establish itself as a top notch automobile marque, it needs to know what the consumer who's spending $50+k on a car truly wants.
Dealing with the second point first, that's up to Audi. If Audi wakes up tomorrow and says, "screw it. We don't care to be viewed in the same light as MB/BMW/Lexus", then Audi can build Ford-quality products at a Ford price b/c no one is going to spend $50+k on a car that has a failure rate of 1 in 10. But if Audi does want to be the first marque that comes to mind when someone wants a premium automobile, then they need to know where that benchmark lies: i.e., what are the expectations of the people who buy such automobiles (i.e., us). I think we serve as a strong benchmark in this respect, but it may be outside of our control if Audi doesn't care to be a premier marque.
The first point is the more aggressive point, but it lies within our control. We are enthusiasts. We talk about our cars to whomever we can; we read about cars and we learn what we can about new models; we speak with authority and people listen when we give car advice. As such, Audi would do well to listen to us, as future car purchases from both us (I've bought cars at the rate of 1 every 9 months over the past 5 years and from the sounds of it alot of other people here buy cars fairly often) and from others (as I'm sure when we say "Audi is great" people listen b/c they know that we know) depends upon our opinion of their cars and their service.
You're statement about settling for "the burden that's given" doesn't resonate with me. If I were the type of person that "just settled", I'd get a Honda. I demand more, and I expect more because I pay more.
Now, all that said, Audi builds great cars. This is the second that I've owned, and so far I'm absolutely thrilled with it. I think Audi is a premier auto maker (maybe THE premier auto maker), and my loyalty is their's to lose.
(I'm editing this post after reading it again) This is not to say that we should have the mentality of "getting what we can get away with", but, on the other hand, I don't believe we should just "settle for the minimum that we can live with".
OK. I'm getting off my soapbox now.
10-15-2003, 05:49 PM
10-15-2003, 06:27 PM
unless he works for AOA. Better yet, since he's such an understanding and compassionate person, why doesn't he trade his new car that's coming with someone with one of these blown motors ... that bad motor will certainly be replaced by a better than new upgraded and corrected one by the kind and benevolent Audi institute of philanthropy (all in the interest of working with Audi of course).
10-15-2003, 06:30 PM
10-15-2003, 06:35 PM
10-15-2003, 08:10 PM
From my personal experience with my former 2001 allroad, there is one major flaw in your argument. You are assuming an Audi dealership service department has the ability to competently do a major repair. I fear many of these "fixed" cars will be a source of endless problems for their owners secondary to less than expert work done on the vehicles. My allroad had to have the same problems fixed many times (none related to the turboes). The car was returned to me one time 3 quarts low on oil (even after I supplied the oil) and another time it started to rapidly leak oil 3 days after getting the car back. The dealer admitted to not aligning the engine and transmission as they were supposed to. They figured since this was the second time the transmission was removed in two months, they could skip a step or two. I eventually lost faith in the car and Audi. I will never buy another Audi again. I should have pursued a buy back, but I just wanted to rid myself of the car and knew I did not want to replace it with another Audi, especially not for my daily driver. The only good thing out of the entire nightmare was that I knew I would never take my S4 to a dealer for work so I would have no need for the warranty. Thus I was free to mod away.
My reasoning is not based on just one car and one dealer. The Cabriolet lit its CEL when it was six months old. Over the last several years no less than four dealers tried to fix it. I was told it had a DSC for the oxygen sensor. It had its oxygen sensors replaced, a new ECU, new spark plugs, air fliter, ect. I finally got my own VAG-Com when I started thinking I would mod the S4. The error code for the CEL said intermittant loss of sensor signal from oxygen sensor 2. To me as a non-Audi trained person, that meant a loose wire or connection. I traced the wiring and found a half locked connection. Wow, no more CEL since I snapped the connection together securely.
I sincerely hope that the unfortunate individuals with majors problems have better luck with Audi warranty repairs than I have. If not, there will be more former Audi fans such as myself converted to Audi critics. I love my S4 and my wife loves her Cabriolet (won't let me consider trading it), but once they are gone, there will never be another VW/Audi product in my garage.
10-16-2003, 06:03 AM
...On a $52,000 car no less!
10-16-2003, 06:40 AM
Is it unreasonable for a buyer to expect a brand new $53K car to work properly ?? You got it all wrong man. If you are such a "reasonable" and understanding person, I suggest you give your S4 back (as previously suggested) for someone else to have while their car is being "fixed". Would THAT be a reasonable expectation ?? No, it wouldn't. Audi is making a high performance car for demanding customers, to suggest that they (Audi) may be financially burdended by replacing broken cars shows your ineptitude. Audi is a unit of Volkswagen AG, a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR company - replacing a broken $53K car would not even be a blip on their "monetary radar". For you to suggest that the consumer should just "deal with it" is absolutly ABSURD. I'd like to see how you would react if it were YOU on the side of the road with an expired motor at 200 miles...PA-LEASE. It is YOU who is being selfish by posting such absurdities. No one ever said the world owes us anything - We are saying AUDI owes it to us AND THEMSELVES to stand behind their product and not put a Band Aid on it. AUDI owes the guys with broken cars bigtime - to the tune of a BRAND NEW CAR.
10-16-2003, 06:56 AM
Having 30 years of experience in owning manufacturing businesses making electronic devices I disagree.
My attitude was that the customer was the reason I was in business not the other way around. In one incident I released a product to the market before, as it turned out, it was completely proven. I lost a great deal of customer confidence for a time not only from the consumer but from my distribution/dealer. ( I marketed in 15 countries.)
I took care of the problem by totally recalling the product and compensating the customer. This was done completely voluntarily out of a sprit of ethical behavior.
To release a car in the American market that is not compatible with the indigenous use is wrong. We don't know that this was done and we don't even know if the problems mentioned here are isolated flaws or inherent in the design. I do know that the Company owes the purchaser the best effort to explicitly correct the problem or nullify the purchase with dispatch.
Just my opinion
10-16-2003, 07:38 AM
First of all I think that a lot of the people in this forum carry an attitude that implies that because you brought an S4 you are entitled to something. That is just sad and says more about our culture that anything else. I have owned a lot of cars none of them entitled me to anything, not a good parking space, not special treatment at the dealer, nothing. The only thing that owning a hot car entitles you to is to drive it. As much as I love cars there are much more important things in life and if the state of your S4 or how Audi is treating you is primary cause of stress in your life you should consider yourself lucky.
Let's put our business caps on for a minute... How many S4 will be produced? I do not know I have not seen it posted or discussed anywhere. My guess is that number is a small faction of the number of A4 that will be produced. OK my guess at very best the ratio is 500 to 1. Well if you are Audi where are you going to focus you efforts and concerns? The premium we paid covers R&D advertising and stuff like that and probably some failure rate. I guarantee you it does not cover mass buy backs of cars with bad trannies or engines. It just is not going to happen and just is not good business.
I personally do not worry about the problems I read about on the post. I feel for those of you who have issues and I hope Audi does what is best for all parties. In some case that may be a replacement car, in our cases just replacement of bad parts.
Look at when the failures are taking place, extremely low mileage. The percentage of products that fail out the box is much higher than those that fall during the recommend life cycle. This is because a manufacture can not take product and put 100 hours on it and then sell it as new. It happens all the time. We buy 100's of HP servers at work and the DOA and failure rate in the first 72 is about 8 out of 100. The failure rate once the server has been burned in for 72 hours is less than 1 to 100.
I am going to close by asking you guys to look around at other forums for hot cars and bikes and look at their failure rate. Look at what was done to make it right. Then give Audi 6 months to get the issues shorted out and figure out how to compensate those of you with issues. I think the remedies will be very close to what other auto makers have done and I think that is the best you can hope for
10-16-2003, 08:23 AM
I know when our $200,000 Cisco switches go bad - they get replaced. And Cisco DOES TREAT US differently because of the amount of money we spend - as do car dealers. That, agreed, is a product of our society and there is nothing we can do to change it. Money talks, you know the rest...
10-16-2003, 08:25 AM
10-16-2003, 08:36 AM
Every warranty for tech equipment I've read says that the manufacturer can replace defective equipment with equivalent new or <b>remanufactured</b> parts. That means odds are the warranty replacement for your dead Cisco switch may very well be someone else's <i>previously</i> dead one...
10-16-2003, 08:39 AM
Avram one thing you said I believe to be wrong. You claim an undue burden will be placed on audi or the dealership by demanding a new car which in turn means more expensive cars. BUT what about the fact that they are selling these cars at full sticker. They are making much more then average margin on these vehicles. They are like the final word if you want this car pay full price or buy an A4 which you can have at way bellow Sticker. We as a consumer have a right to be more Irate for the simple reason that they made a very good profit off us S4 OWNERS AND A MUCH LARGER PERCENTAGE THEN ANY OTHER CAR AUDI MAKES EXCEPT THE RS6. With them making so much money off me I feel that what I got in return had better live up to expectations. It obviously didnt and think of my embarasment when I traded my old S4 for the new one drove it for one day and then it breaks down. When people ask where's your new car how do you think I feel saying it is in the shop and I dont know when I am getting it back. All this after only one day of owning it. Word of mouth is a very powerfull medium and think about the bad rep Audi gets when people hear my one day old audi is broken down after so much waiting and expense. And their resolution is fix the problem while I continue to pay for a car in the shop rather then offer me a new car to make things better. Any way I am venting and rushing so if I come across as harsh I dont mean to I am just tired. Try walking in my shoes.
10-16-2003, 08:40 AM
Many people who have had their S2000 engines fail due to <b>known</b> flaws have had Honda pull the whole "we'll have to see if they'll cover this under warranty" gambit while the dealers accuse the drivers of overrevs and such (much like BMW did in the early days of E46 M3 engine failures.)
FWIW, Audi has <b>never</b> taken this approach, which IMHO makes them one of the good guys...
10-16-2003, 08:41 AM
An engine is a part.
If your wheel bearing goes bad within warranty, are you going to demand a whole new car?
How about a transmission?
Why is an engine any different just because it is a larger part?
10-16-2003, 09:05 AM
We do not mess with things that have been "fixed"; I don't care who is fixing it. Our business and our online platform are way too important to cut corners with remanufactured hardware. Just as rebuilt motor would be the weak link in an S4...If the heart of machine dies, you replace it, not Band Aid it...
10-16-2003, 09:31 AM
it's a combination of MANY MOVING PARTS and is the heart and soul of the S4. Get your facts straight. And being that an engine is such an integral part, it like most important things in life, is VERY FRAGILE. One tiny little piece (out of hundreds) breaks and then entire motor can grenade. One bolt comes loose and it can destroy itself in seconds. Ever seen a connecting rod break ? Ever seen a valve drop at 7000rpms in a V-8 ? Ever seen a blown head gasket ($20 part) that goes un-noticed ?? Ugly is the first thing that comes to mind, expensive would be the next thought...
10-16-2003, 09:51 AM
Avram made several thought provoking points that seem or are correct - however, I believe he then mis-applied them (or we mis-interpreted his application).
Avram wrote in part:
>You should only be looking for compensation that is equivalent to the burden you're experiencing.
AGREE (but perhaps not your interpretation of the burden)
>You should be looking for the solution that is the least impact on *both* you and Audi, not the one that is most ideal to you no matter what the impact on Audi.
AGREED, lets all be reasonable
> Audi is your partner in this, not your enemy.
HMMM ... I was going to say no to this, but maybe that indeed is what the warranty means (legally). Do they want the partnership to continue long term?
>The world doesn't owe us anything, we aren't entitled to be treated like kings just b/c we happen to be able to afford a $50k car.
AGREE / DISAGREE - the world owes us nothing - HOWEVER once we trade our $50K worth of sweat, we ARE owed a car that functions for a reasonable period of time.
>Ask for the least that you can survive with, not the most you can get away with.
HMMM If you meant "survive commensurate with the $50K I gave them", then I agree - let's not go overboard.
4drc4s wrote in part:
>First of all I think that a lot of the people in this forum carry an attitude that implies that because you brought an S4 you are entitled to something. That is just sad and says more about our culture that anything else... The only thing that owning a hot car entitles you to is to drive it.
EXACTLY, the LAST SENTENCE - we are entitled to drive it - if it can't be driven, the deal has been broken.
>We buy 100's of servers at work and the DOA and failure rate in the first 72 is about 8 out of 100. The failure rate once the server has been burned in for 72 hours is less than 1 to 100.
HMMM ... if I bought a 100 S4s (or even two), it would be much easier to be patient about 1 failing. But then if I was spending $100K, I would be considering different cars.
MY EXPERIENCES / COMMENTS:
$27K FORD PARTNER - dealer gave me a rental the one time they had to extend the predicted repair time and keep the car overnight; this was car that had 60,000 miles on it, a rather mundane $27K (when new) vehicle, nothing special. AND, I did not even buy it at that dealership (I have bought other cars there, for $23k, $10k).
FULL MSRP - if we got it for invoice less holdbacks, I wouldn't expect anything from the dealer. But at full msrp he's doing fine and is being well paid to provide good support and ensure satisfaction with the experience.
WARRANTY: Though perhaps not the minimum legal interpretation, I prefer to presume/hope the warranty offered by my "partner" is meant to deal with ancillary items ... or in the rare event that an item that costs 1/3 the price of the car fails (eg engine), replace it new, and not have a local dealer rebuilding it. The price I paid reflected a new factory built engine, built under carefully controlled conditions - Not a (non-factory) rebuilt one.
OH, ONE MORE THING ... somewhere i read that the manual tranny for the US is supplied by a US supplier, and the one used in Europe is different (probably to raise the US content as required by various laws and expectations). One wonders what level of testing and proving got done with the US tranny. BTW I think all the test cars given to the mags were Euro spec cars.
10-16-2003, 09:54 AM
and with respect, they have satisfied their obligation.
10-16-2003, 10:05 AM
you've described. That's 5 Audis and approximately 400 or 500,000 miles.
10-16-2003, 10:17 AM
DOA's get replaced w/ new ones (no one would get a DOA car so that is not an issue)servers that die during configuration and burn-in get on-site service. I have seen HP replace everythnig but the chassis to get one it up.
Cisco is a different animal... Esp. right now. They have so much product in inv. and in the supply chain they have to do it.. Look at a 6509 switch (75-250k depending on config).. I have three spares chassis in a closet because it was cheaper for me to buy them out of the supply chain then to put all 20 of mine under contract.
10-16-2003, 10:30 AM
Ok... Do not miss my point about who Audi is going to keep happy? Is, Audi going to be more or less concerned with an A4 series of problems or a series of S4 problems? That was my point, buy a semi-limited production item even though it may seem that you would get better service, quality and so on is a bad assumption. Even if all of us S4 owners had a complaint or a satisfaction issue the impact to Audi overall is minor due to the small percentage we represent over the complete product line.
This is big business, I think you were the one who said in another thread you will start to care about Audi when you see them caring about you.. Well that is my point the customer is only is king until the contract is signed. Once the contract is signed the bottom line becomes king.
10-16-2003, 10:42 AM
Understand your point.. Although they are hard to find you should do some research on reman. gear vs. brand new stuff. The failure rates of new stuff across the board is substantially higher.
For this reason anything that goes into production that could impact revenue gets a full two months of stress testing. If, a server, switch router so on fails it gets replaced with something that has been stressed and the replacement goes back into the testing program.
10-16-2003, 12:48 PM
The real issue is simply whether they keep you happy or not. If you're shelling out $800+ for the month that you're on the loaner, and you're not happy, then it's not working.
It's the people who think a new car is the solution to all problems that I don't get.
I would think you'd want a couple or few hundred bucks back, or depending on whether the loaner was a Geo Metro or an A4. I'd demand an Audi loaner, and I'd probably be content with that for a month. If you want something to compensate you for the gap between an A4 and an S4 in that month, that's cool, your business.
I'm really saying more "let the punishment fit the crime" - on the scale of nothing to an S4 for a month, I kinda think and used A4 is at least 75% of the way there - like an A4 ain't a rough way to spend a month. So it's more how much of that extra 25% do you really need compensation for, and what compensation will you accept.
My point is that the people who snap their fingers and want a new car are going a little overboard on what covers that gap.
10-16-2003, 12:56 PM
And if I were in Audi's shoes, I would make sure you got a freaking *sweet* loaner just because of the ridiculously short interval before your breakdown.
But I think that there are much smaller things than a whole new car that could be keeping you happy right now, like freezing your lease payment (if you leased), or a decent loaner.
Now, after one day, if you wanted to accept whatever S4 they could find for you that isn't already sold, and it's not your color and doesn't have your options, and you're happy with that, then sure, I don't think that's insane. But I doubt many of us would accept that deal.
But if someone wants to wait 2 months for another car to get built and shipped, and that's going to make him happy, I just don't get that. If that's the case, I'd say it's the revenge that's making him happy, not the new car.
10-16-2003, 01:08 PM
If you are willing to wait for a new car, but you are not willing to wait for your car to be fixed, then you have just proven that the time away from your car is not something you're concerned about being compensated for.
Thus, you're saying that if they could fix your car in a few days, that still wouldn't be good enough for you. If they get your car back to you and it's fine, then that should be the end of it, except for the inconvenience - which you just said doesn't bother you.
If the car comes back and it's *not* right, that's a whole different story, they have to make it right, and if that requires a new car, then it requires a new car.
The <i>problem</i> and <i>how hard it is to fix</i> is what determines whether or not a new car is the right solution. Not how soon the problem came up.
10-16-2003, 01:10 PM
translation: "let the solution fit the problem"
10-16-2003, 01:49 PM
Hey mm, you keep talking about "bad engines." Did you engine flip you the bird or something? Does it have tatoos & nose rings?
Excuse the sarcasm, but you seem to have this idea that a "bad engine" is a black box that's either bad or it's not - like it's sacred and somehow entitles you to a new car.
Some engine problems destroy the engines, some don't. When they don't, they can be quick to fix, or they can take a long time. There's no magic here, and there is no "bad engine" fault code that pops up on the diag computer where the tech says "uh-oh, we got a bad engine here."
Your lumping all "major" engine problems into this one category is arbitrary. Every situation is different, and each requires it's own conclusion.
But let's just pretend for a minute that is is that simple, and you did get the "bad engine" fault code (0xFFFF is it?).
The idea that getting a new car built solves <i>anything</i> that a new engine doesn't solve - I just can't follow you on this one. Unless your engine goes up in flames, there is probably nothing wrong with the rest of the car. Why would you want that replaced too? Especially if it's going to take 2 months or more?
Replacing an engine is not that hard. Is this just that you don't trust your service dept to do it right? It's not brake pads, I'll give you that. But in the B5 S4, you had to pull the engine to change the clutch. My clutch went at 38k mi. Would you have asked for a new car instead of a new clutch, b/c you don't think the technicians can competently replace an engine?
If you have that little faith in Audi service you should not be buying an Audi in the first place.
10-16-2003, 01:52 PM
10-16-2003, 02:11 PM
They replace the failed components. It is very rare to have a problem that can't be redeuced to one or two components. If you're a big enough customer that you can <b>force</b> them to do that anyway, then
a) you're making it worse for yourself because the probability of ending up with another bad component out of say 10 line cards, a chassis and a couple power supplies is umm.. let's see, 5 times the probability of just one new line card or chassis coming back bad, and
b) This analogy is irrelevant anyway because switches aren't custom ordered with hard-wired options and unchangeable color combinations. If you really do send the whole switch back, the failed components get pulled, and the rest of the thing gets sold as brand new the next day.
Furthermore, switches don't have odometers on them that are agains the law to reset. If a component had never been found to be at fault, and you bully them into taking it back by being a big customer, they just resell it as new. The cost to them is just shipping, packing & inventory management.
Not something Audi can pull off with a car that has an odometer that is against the law to reset, and about 100 possible permutations of orderable specs that can not be mixed & matched once the car has been built.
10-16-2003, 03:08 PM
10-16-2003, 03:18 PM
and they even send someone to do it for us. Seems to be working fine so far...Your generalizations are beginning to bore me...
10-16-2003, 03:26 PM
Every B5 S4 that has ever had a clutch replaced or turbos changed has had it's engine pulled.
I don't know where you're getting this idea that pulling an engine is such a catastrophe. My brother and I rebuilt the transmission on his 80 quattro, and you basically had to pull the engine out to do that. There were a few things we didn't have to disconnect, like fuel lines & some wires that were long enough.
You have to lift the engine somewhere between 6" and a foot to get the driveshaft out of the clutch. We didn't make this up, it came right out of the Bentley shop manual, we just did what it said. Took the hood off, lifted it up with a crane & everything.
As for the B5, it was well understood that the 2.7t was so tightly packed in that engine bay that there were some fairly routine maintenence actions that would require pulling it. Ours is pretty tight too, time will tell if there are similar issues with it.
Oh, and "get a clue?" what because I have a different opinion than you, I need a clue? I hope you use that attitude when you're trying to convince Audi to give you a new car, it'll go a long way.
10-16-2003, 03:44 PM
If a shop tells you they need to pull the engine to change the clutch you should take your keys and run, don't walk, out of there.
10-16-2003, 04:38 PM
AUDI IS NOT WORRIED OUR REPEAT BUSINESS AS MUCH AS THAT OF AN A4 BUYER. You keep wanting to take a business view but do not want to except the fact that we do not have the numbers (numbers of unit or profit number) to impact Audi's policies.
Audi is going to take care of there core customer and core business. S4's, M3's, C32, Z06's and the list goes on will always appeal and sell to a certaint sigment of the market. So if everyone on this post says I will never buy another S4... What are you going to buy next? An M3? There are M3 owner out there with engine and fuel pump problems thinking when I get rid of this thing I am going to get an S4.
10-16-2003, 05:12 PM
send you brand new unused new stuff I would like to talk to about some very interesting deals on oceanfront property in central Nevada.
The most amusing part of your comments is that you are probably much better off with equipment that went back in and got far more extensive burn in and QC than the first run stuff did.
If that one hasn't sunk in yet you haven't been in this business very long.....
10-16-2003, 05:56 PM
I have met several ex-Audi owners in the last couple of years. They all loved driving their cars but were plagued with many problems and poor service. I am the only person I have met from where I live that has owned an Audi and purchased a second one. This is a mountain area where all wheel drive rules. It should be prime Audi territory, but word of mouth plays big and VW/Audi products have a bad reputation.
10-16-2003, 07:29 PM
A small number of dedicated enthusists with loud voices can make a big difference compare to a large crowd of mute consumers. How many people got M3 blown engines out of the total number of M3s sold? And compare that to the total number of 3 series excluding M3s sold? Those unlucky individuals certainly got their cars fixed and warrentee extended. Why? Because they were enthusists with a loud voice. In the end, it's the PR rating that counts, it doesn't matter whether the same amount of public complain came from a lot of people or a few people who screamed really loud.
10-16-2003, 07:41 PM
If I buy a microwave oven and it's power source blew out the first time I used it, I'll take it back and demand an exchange. Same if I got a TV, VCR, power tools... Why should a $50+ car be different? A car is an integrated system, sure, there are parts that can be replaced with little effect on other parts (such as wheels), but not something as critical as the engine, which is a major part of the car's functionality.
If the engine blew after 50k or even 25k miles of use, then I'd say it's just bad luck, in which case an engine replacement under warrentee seem appropriate (assuming no abuse took place). But if a brand spanking new car had its engine blew within the first 1k miles, I'd call it a QA problem, if not a manufacturing error. And if it happens to anything more than 1% of the total product (even at 1% it's still pretty bad, cars are meant to be reliable products, unlike operating systems ;P), then it's reasonable to see it as a design error, in which case it's obvious the manufacturer didn't spend enough time testing their product.
10-17-2003, 05:13 AM
said only I/we get new unused equipment, I believe that was Avram; the same moron who started this thread...I am fully aware that others are treated the same, I have peers in the industry that attest to it. Regarding which are better, new, used remanufactured - I really am not sure, I'm not a "techie", I just employ [a lot of] them.
10-17-2003, 05:35 AM
Digital electronics and autos are world apart - once silicon chips are burned in, they rarely fail unless they are subjected to voltage or temperature instabilities.
The day someone build a automotive drivetrain that has those qualities (and we care about the resulting product) will be truely revolutionary.
10-20-2003, 12:34 AM
Porsche Boxsters regularly have their engines replaced under warranty.
E46 M3s regularly have their engines replaced under warranty.
Several Honda S2000 owners have had their engines replaced under warranty.
Heck, my mother-in-law just had the 4.6L V8 engine in her Cadillac DeVille replaced under warranty.
Fine, it's a <b>collection</b> of parts, but really, it's just a "part" to Audi, the same as getting a new transmission.
In short, relax, it happens, but odds are you are <b>not</b> getting a new car out of it (and really, why would you want to wait three months for another car to be built when odds are they can have a new engine here and installed in one?)