10-07-2005, 08:05 AM
what is valued more?--ur quattro 10v tuned to the tees, or converted to 3b
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10-07-2005, 08:05 AM
what is valued more?--ur quattro 10v tuned to the tees, or converted to 3b
10-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Obviously, there's a lot more money involved in dropping in a 20vt. I'd prefer the AAN to a 3B any day, personally. I'd pay(and did pay), extra for an UrQ with a 20v engine. Too bad the engine was misrepresented. I learned my lesson.
Depends on the YM in my mind, also. 83's would be less desireable with the 10v to me than a nicely tuned 85. Fuse panel, wiring, and all...
10-07-2005, 09:58 AM
Can you please contact me?
It is very important.
10-07-2005, 11:09 AM
10-07-2005, 11:22 AM
10-07-2005, 11:33 AM
10-07-2005, 12:00 PM
10-07-2005, 12:00 PM
Both really. There are plenty of 3b or distributor based engines make power right with the AAN based motors.
But all things being equal here's how I would stack them up in terms of desirability.
I'd say stock AAN is a 6
stock 3B is a 5.5
Audisport 10V motor is a 9.
Audisport 20V motor is a 10
Modified 20V street AAN is an 8
Modified 20V street 3B is an 7.5
Street tuned maxed out 10V EFI is a 6
Perfect running CIS is a 5
EFI 10V conversion is a 5
Poorly running CIS is 4 or lower.
THe above is quickly thrown together with maybe 3 minutes of thought. Tear it up guys.
10-07-2005, 12:12 PM
10-07-2005, 12:13 PM
10-07-2005, 12:29 PM
the AAN intake is better than the 3B.
I thin both hit a wall about the same point. And really to go further requires ditching the stock ECU ,ignition system and bottom end anyways.
So, I really wouldn't feel shorted in anyway with a 3B instead of an AAN.
10-07-2005, 12:33 PM
10 it was great back in beggining of 80's sence than tech. got better,and driving a original 91 Ur-Q with 20 valve made my decision.
10-07-2005, 01:10 PM
A lousy distributor (RR, 3B) or individual coil (ABY,AAN, ADU) conversion could cost a LOT to make right (BTST), so it all depends on quality.
That said, if the conversion was done well, I would take a 20V car over any 10V (real rally cars excluded) assuming the rest of the cars were the same. The 20V will be more reliable, have better drivability and more performance potential than the 10V. The 20V engines were improved in all pretty much all respects from the 10Vs.
Now from a collector's point of view (as will any collector car), a perfectly original car in excellent shape would be worth more than a modified car. You can modify or restore a car many times, but it will only be original once.
10-07-2005, 02:10 PM
And I think the AudiSport motors, while cool to look at, are less desireable, or at least only "as" desireable as a well tuned AAN, simply because of parts availability. I'd rather be able to source a replacement part fairly easily. The 20v AudiSport motor I received in my UrQ(allegedly, according to the Dongl brothers), was a hunk of crap. Ostensibly, one of the least congruous 20v motors I've ever seen assembled.
OK, from a novelty standpoint, your point is taken. But from a practical one, I disagree, James. And as to whether which one constitutes desirability, again I say that's pretty subjective. For someone like you with a penchant for all things AudiSport, obviously the rallye motors are a wet dream. ;)
10-07-2005, 03:31 PM
10-07-2005, 03:36 PM
Having a motor sit because you can't get a distributor cap is the pits.
Also you always feel like you can't really "drive" the car, in case something breaks.
10-07-2005, 05:39 PM
I wouldn't agree with that. You really can't drive a tweaked Audisport engine every day. Blow it up, and you just wasted $10k+. I would rather have something that I could drive and not worry about.
Would I want a beautiful '85 quattro with a tempermental Pierburg injected 2.1l 10V Audisport motor making 350 hp, all at the top end? Hell no. (I'm obviously going to extremes here.) Give me a 450hp 2.5l ADU with modern fuel injection that makes power below 4000 RPM, idles at less than 2k and starts easily. Probably even passes emissions and could be driven by my wife, not just Michele Mouton.
Of course, YMMV. I like this thread. :)
10-07-2005, 06:00 PM
i have to make a list,and each month i buy 1 part,to build my beast.OK the Turbo 4 months!!!Maybe James has one for sale cheap ...LOL...right James?!
10-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Maybe for 1 cylinder
10-07-2005, 10:04 PM
For instace, I bought a complete AAN for 3K.
that same 3K buys just a few parts of the race motor. Maybe a good working dry sump or a good proper head.
I don't think there is a comparison between a proper built race motor and what people get when they start with a street motor. Its so much work to not only the motor but all the accessory systems in the car. Then there are all the thousands of little build details that make the motor stronger.
Think about it like this. Say you had an AAN motor and an S1 motor. How many parts off the AAN can be used as replacements on the S1? Remember S1 has different head, larger valves, solid lifters, alloy block with extra cooling channels cut into it, blueprinted bottom end balanced to 9K, custom manifolds, custom turbos, custom Maf-less ECU, custom radiators, custom cams, custom hydraulic pump, larger injectors, custom wiring harness, dry sump, custom radiator, custom radiator fan, the list goes on and on. All of those things are improved over an AAN because they're better. Keep in mind the 10V Audisport motors are similarly prepared.
I've torn into my car and I've seen the handfull of things that are still stock on the car that I could find on an 83 street urquattro. Its a small handfull to put it bluntly. Literally the power steering rack, wipers, and half the headlights is about it. Everything else on the car is custom for a reason.
10-07-2005, 10:42 PM
For the most part, when any I5 starts to get up in power and modifications most people remove the MAF and Motronic. There are a few people who still chip tune. More power to them, but its kind of a dead end street after the modifications get custom. Fine for stage 1 to 3 stuff, but after that, I don't think so.
I see what you're saying about the AAn but replacability wasn't an issue. I'm talking about pure performance in which case something like an S1 motor beats an AAN. An AAN is 60 lbs more hanging over the front axle right there. The purest development of an AAN is pretty much to make it look like an S1 motor. A large turbo. Tube exhaust manifold. Remove the MAF and go MAP. solid lifters, dry sump, Custom intake manifolds. I can think of at least 5 AAN motors so evolved. Excellent motors all around. And as I said in my post, I don't think there is a person here who would choose any AAN based over motor over a legitimate Audisport motor. If not for the rarity,performance, inherent engineering but also the value.
But as I said. If you look at the list. The first Obtainable motor on there for 99.9% of the people is a modified AAN. But trust me, its not better than an S1 motor. And to many people its not better than a good race proven Lehmann Audisport 10V cranking out 400 hp. (RE: the Sprongl S2 that won So many rallies.) And you're right about Sam's motor, it wasn't audisport at all; but thats kinda the point.
10-08-2005, 05:18 AM
I bought a 90 part's car for mine, and the only thing I ended up using was a windshield wiper arm.
I have half an S1 motor(S1 20V-turbo), and there's nothing common to a stock 20V...nothing.
10-08-2005, 05:20 AM
10-08-2005, 05:22 AM
10-08-2005, 05:36 AM
And I don't necessarily think an AAN is "better", i.e., more reliable than an AudiSport motor. Just more practical for my purposes. Sure, there are some inherent benefits to having the AS motor over an AAN in terms of build strength and pure performance. But few of us run rallye's consistently and put the kind of stresses on an engine that Rohrl or Mouton did in the day. For that reason, I think the built AAN is a more practical beast from a financial standpoint, given a certain upgrade path. Certainly, there are advantages to sytems like Javad's in fine-tuning the engine mapping/performance. Is it better than Motronic? Well, there are certainly more parameters to be toyed with. But if the stock ECU can get the job done efficiently, I won't bother.
I don't really have a point, I guess, other than to say that I wouldn't really be comfortable with an AudiSport motor in my UrQ beacuse of the fear of breaking something relatively difficult to replace should the need arise.
I do, however, understand the attraction to owning a car that clearly belies its racing heritage in more than just a superficial way. Maybe someday, I'll be one of those guys? Who knows...
In the meantime, enjoy your car,
cause you have a sweet ride, even if it only goes 100mph. ;-P
10-08-2005, 06:10 AM
and having the entire engine build finished and getting it custom tuned one time is a decent option. Equally good is to stick with standard Kit Stage 1 to 3 packages which are reliable, affordable and bulletproof witout any need to tune at all; However, standalones are getting very good with launch control and multiple extra control outputs which can be used for a variety of things. The cost of instrumentation is going way down and the interfaces are getting better and better. Most Hondas and other makes have a true PNP standalone that just hooks up to the factory wiring harness. Knock sense is one of the few things on a standalone to get, but knock sensing is soo particular that if done wrong its a constant source of trouble. So in those respect Motronic is very good, but its quite inflexible to not be able to adjust the maps on a seconds notice to fix a lean or rich condition which might develope from a simple turbo hose change.
I had a similar dilemma a few years ago about the motor in my car. It has some rare bits on it and alot of people were saying go with an AAN. So you know, there is a huge group of people who know their stuff who prefer to use AAN motors as the start to any great I5 project. Thats certainly true, and I know you personally have been down that AAN road and know the incredible amount of things that have to be replaced and upgraded on the AAN to get it really powerful. Most people replace absolutely EVERYTHING except the block itself and then they bore it out with larger diameter pistons (something NObody does to an S1). Which is another thing because Audi typically went smaller diameter when they up'd the power. So I don't really know if thats a move in the right direction. Anyways, I don't think we're arguing but just doing the typical internet "Gotta be verbose about it" cause we're not in the same room so things get misconstrued easily.
As I was saying, yeah I decided to use it. I was never one to be afraid of using something as it was intended to be used.
10-08-2005, 06:17 AM
Meaning if someone brought me a full deal 10V audisport motor to me with dry sump and solid lifters I'd put it in my car in a heartbeat. I would not pull my motor out for any AAN based motor unless my motor dies.
10-08-2005, 06:41 AM
10-08-2005, 07:21 AM
You and squidix are definitely unique cases. You both have racecars, built without the concerns of a street car. The Audi race engines were built to certain regulated specifications and requirements which don't exist now.
In any other "regular" quattro, using a race engine would be foolish. Would I use an Al block? Sure, if I could find one inexpensively, but saving 50lbs to me isn't worth it. If I did find one, it would probably be better to sell it someone else for whom it would be more appropriate. It would probably pay for my whole super tweaked AAN bottom end. Then I can bore it to 83mm (and run a longer stroke if I want) because I don't have to worry about regulations that Audi did when they built the racing I5s. Would Audi have stayed with 2.1l if the regulations would have allowed a 2.5l? Hell no, they would have built some crazy big-bore monster. We can do that now if we want.
Would I run dry sump? Heck no, I don't need the added complexity, increased service requirements, etc. Sure, if you are doing hour long events where you need lots of oil capacity to keep it cool it would be nice. An Accusump would work for even the worst track events that I will ever do.
Going shim and bucket on the valves would make sense if you need to rev over 8k, or run really lumpy cams. This isn't necessary for even a pretty highly tweaked street engine. Goes back to the drivability thing.
Would I run Motec engine management? Well, if someone else paid for it. Even the old Motronic used on the 3B and AAN is more complete and complex than most of the currently available engine management systems. It has altitude compensation, idle control, boost control, failsafe modes for when sensors fail, cylinder specific knock control, etc. You won't find all those in any but the most expensive aftermarket systems. I don't need anti-lag or launch control (though it would be cool), and would gladly trade that for easy starting, built-in diagnostics, and, dare I say it, the ability to pass my local emissions tests.
10-08-2005, 08:41 AM
No, we're not arguing. I'm actually enjoying the discussion. You and I are reaching the same conclusion from different perspectives. The only difference is, we "know" how your car performs, and the components you are utilizing are proven. Mine in their current configuration, have not. Soon will be, but...who knows when that will be. :/ If there's one thing I've learned from my process, it's that projects take a heck of a lot longer than you think, especially when one is not in a position to directly influence the rapidity of completion. I've sourced parts, done homework, even brainstormed some solutions. But I have no idea how the parts are going to perform from an absolute standpoint.
Engine's running smoothly, though. It was ready to drive 2 weeks ago, then the brake bias valve was found to be leaking after driving around the shop. New one sourced, we started to move ahead, but then I mentioned how great it would be to put a manually adjustable valve in, so we changed direction. It's amazing how much time it takes when you rely on someone else to order stuff, and how long delivery of said items sometimes takes. Gauges have been wired in the meantime, however, and the new valve should be in today. Just gotta set up a time for the dyno runs and some test drives. By the way, James, with whom have you insured your car, for how much, and is it a "stated value policy"? I need to insure my car ASAP, and I've yet to find a policy whihc meets my approval. Feel free to email me offline if you have time. I'd love some feedback in that dept.
10-08-2005, 09:02 AM
I love this discussion,great subject,just next time need more details!
10-08-2005, 12:10 PM
no track insurance on that policy. I'm going to use a 2nd policy for that. But basically the coverage is a full coverage low deducatable limited mile, limited driver policy. Pretty inexpensive. 75K for about 800 a year.
10-08-2005, 02:45 PM
like mine is more like $45k. The full S1 with turbo would have been even more.
10-08-2005, 02:53 PM
so I see both points of view.
The AS motor is a beast and it'll run up to 8k all day long. But it comes at a cost. And it's very finicky.
The AAN/3B/ABY starts and runs like a champ without any difficulties, and I know it's reliable, but it doens't have quite as much jump as the 7A.
That said, I have enough love to share between both of them.
I suppose it's time to start looking for a third(fourth actually)? I have a stock 20V in the new Coupe. I may have an older Coupe(10V) coming in the next few weeks.
10-08-2005, 03:58 PM
He picked it for $1100. Four bolt mains, and unfinished bores.
10-08-2005, 05:49 PM
sounds about right. A raw block is going to need bux to machine and finish. By the time it is ready to use, it will have had a bunch of cadh infused, but it'll be worth some change at that point.
Where did he find it?
10-08-2005, 06:03 PM
Farndon forged billet crankshaft, custom rods and pistons, big hollow cam (it is a 10V), etc. He has the engine on a stand in his shop looking pretty, but it is destined for a quattro.
I believe that it came from Chris Sanborn a few years ago.
10-08-2005, 06:34 PM
I know that name, but I'm drawing a blank.
10-08-2005, 08:13 PM
I think that his old quattro is for sale again. I just saw it advertised somewhere...
10-09-2005, 04:08 AM
10-09-2005, 07:36 AM
The 10v in Shokan's A2 takes a 20v turbo head gasket.
10-09-2005, 03:36 PM
10-09-2005, 03:37 PM
10-09-2005, 04:24 PM
10-09-2005, 05:42 PM
Hmm, I am thinking about a different one then I thought Chris' was silver though. I'm sure I know him, this is going to bug me now.
The block is cast iron and it is a rally block? I was thinking it was an aluminum block. I want to get my hands on one of those!
Next time you drop in his place for a visit, jot down the part# if you remember.
10-16-2005, 07:40 PM