Steve S.
Your post from 10/27/99 - excerpt:
"I know of no known situations whereby the control arm bushing has posed a serious threat to the operation of the front suspension. Is there any? All I know of is a mild to moderate clunking noise on occasion. Anybody have more serious symptoms on this issue?

I am curious to find out. BTW, my car has 48K miles, and doesn't exhibit this problem."



Steve, living in California and driving on nice roads, you are very lucky. Believe me, here in Michigan, we have hell-on-earth for roads. The roads are why you have not had problems. Count your blessings. Your roads are not tortured from the pavement-weakening salt, water-to-ice expansion, cold temps, poor quality materials that don't hold up to the elements and such.
Everyone I know who has control arm problems, has usually had bad roads to drive on. The car's suspension works much harder and fails much sooner on bad roads.
My 3rd set is already going bad. I've managed to steer clear of some bad holes. I have yet to bend a 17" wheel...yet my control arms don't hold up for ****.
The last set of bad control arms we removed were horrible! Absolutely pathetic! The rubber bushing popped out with the push of one finger! If I had driven another day on them and hit some bad pavement I could have had a catastrophic failure. If that had happened at a bad location and the car lost control...I may have been seriously injured or even possibly killed if the situation was right.
Does it have to take THAT kind of incident to get this REALLY bad problem corrected?
If it does then we are all in very serious trouble.
Yes, most people have been able to get them fixed under warranty due to the annoying clunking and squeaking. They get it fixed quickly at the first signs of the noise. When all these cars start to go off warranty and AoA refuses to help (As in my case) people may have to wait longer to get them repaired because it costs TOO much. My repair was quoted by the dealer at $2600. For all 4 control arms in front (upper and lowers) plus labor. Most people can't stomach this pricetag....they should not have to....especially when the failures occur all too frequently.
Sorry, this issue is a very sore spot with me. Overall, you know I love the car, it's been great, but this control arm thing is just unacceptable.
-Cathleen

I ask this because you live in Michigan (AoA headquarters), and I'd expect that they have the same problems with their cars. I too, will probably have the same issue as I live in NY, which also has horrid roads.


good luck,


Peter

The customer service person I spoke to knows little to nothing about cars from what I can tell from our conversation. So getting my point across was pointless.
I was directed to take my case number and the car to the dealer, have the area rep look at it and I would get my answer as to if AoA MIGHT give me some sort of break on the cost.
The AoA area rep basically said no way. I was out of warranty...tough luck.
My first set (uppers and lowers) went bad with a stock suspension. The second set, about half way through their life, I got an aftermarket suspension. These control arms actually lasted a little longer. So, whether or not I had an aftermarket suspension makes no difference.

As for do the AoA people have the same problems, living in Michigan? Who knows. They probably don't keep a car long enough or if they do, they are lucky enough to get them replaced without much hassle. Either way, I doubt they'd complain. I do know that the dealers know how much this happens. Those in the area that I've talked to seem to know it's a big problem. They even apologized that there's nothing they could do to help. It was corporate that refused to help me.
-C.

Cathleen,

I ask this because I too will have the same problems, living in metro NYC area. I will get some of my phone numbers for AoA and make some discreet inquiries (you can search the board as I posted these names and numbers some time ago, James Cruise and Karen Fox). Also, my company has an ofice near Ingolstad and one of my coleagues mentioned that three of his class-mates are Audi engineers, so I'll be asking him to check things out on that end too (buy them a couple of beers).

I'll post any info I receive.


Good luck and thanks for your input,


Peter Brennan

to report the safety aspect; and I certainly wouldn't stop at the cust. service level at AoA... I'd look for someone higher up in the mgmt. chain who is less robotic. But I'd go to NHTSA too given your experience

I know you want to keep your A4 for many years to come...and I think you know I am selling mine. If I was keeping my car I probably would be more concerned with this. But I am not. Youre correct about the roads issue...we do get better-than-average roads here...but we still have our share of "lovely" pot holes and other miscellaneous debris that find their way to our highways and byways. Hope you can work it out and get it handled amicably.

My red devil is in the shop again...this time for a noise which they think is first gear. SO, they have torn apart the transmission looking for it. Good thing I am still under 50K miles.

Hey, come on over to NorCal for our 2-day Quattro event in January...it will probably be partially conducted in the rain...Wooohooo

Steve S.
97 2.8QM

I have had the noise(squeeking) from about 5k. I have ignored it, but I am concerned that it is important enough to fix. I had the dealer look at it once(prior to all this info being posted on the board), but since then I had neuspeed/bilstein's installed. I didn't realize this was a correctable situation so i went ahead and did it anyway...my question is since I had the problem documented b/f the new shocks/springs were installed should I be able to go in and have them fix it(even though my new shocks and springs are on the car? I really can't afford the time or money to get the new stuff taken off and the old stuff put back on just to take it into the dealer to get looked at....
Help...
alex

With every post on this subject, I become more and more concerned. I own a 97 2.8QM and I have yet to put 20K on the car. My plan from the beginning was to keep this car 10-12 years, so I bought the car vs leasing it.

Having now driven it for 16 months, I can say beyond any shadow of doubt that I LOVE this car. I still grin ear to ear every morning as I blast through the three ess-curves on my way to work. In absence of issues like this, there is no doubt in my mind that I would buy another Audi. They clearly have the right formula.

I dont know how to get the point across to Audi, but its pretty #($* simple... if you stick me with a $2K plus bill for this after I drop out of warranty, not only will I sell the car (and therefore they lose my service $$$), and I will never buy another one. Ever.

Im a simple guy - I vote with my wallet. I really dont care whether the Audi rep thinks its a non warranty issue or not... they are free to make that decision. I simply reserve my right to choose another car if I FEEL like Ive been screwed. And there are MANY choices in the market today.

It is such a pity that this has not been resolved... in my 40 years, I have NEVER been so addicted to any product - Automobile or otherwise. It is so wonderful in every other way that I can think of. It just makes me sick to think that there is a high likelyhood that I will become so dissatisfied with a product I cant seem to get enough of today.

I hope that they wake up before they loose the very loyalty and excitement that they have built with this car. Fixing this problem should seem cheap compared with the loss of service, and future sales revenues of myself, and I suspect most buyers.

Feelin kinda down...

Jeff

I hope I got your attention.

I had some control arms replaced under warranty. 20,000 miles later at 70,000 I needed to stop front end squeaking again. Hoffman (CT) told me to call AoA. They gave me a case number and told me to schedule an appointment with the service dept. The cost to replace what the service dept. told me were different CA's than the warranty repair was $1500. I called AoA again and they said they would reduce the repair to wholesale and pay 50%. I haven't followed up on this yet, but I know that my credit card hasn't been credited the balance.

OK, here's where I blow up. The term "overpriced Kraut crap" is really staring to hit home. $2600 to fix something that should last 10 years is out of the question. I knew when I bought this car that it would depreciate like a stone and require more maintenance than a Honda,but this is way beyond that. $2600 should replace the engine or transmission after about 8-10 years use; not the CA's every 2 years. I could stomach it if I thought it was a one off thing, but there is no end in sight. A4's are rolling off the production lines with substandard CA's.

"Now that I know what fahrvegnugen really means, I'm a little surprised they let them say it on TV" (Car&Driver Letters circa 1994)

I was planning on driving this car for 5-8 years,but I don't want to spend $10,000 on CA's. So, it's official, I'm returning to the Japanese camp with my "bourgeois concerns about reliability"

The A4 is a very good car if you are in the income range that it is intended for; which is probably less than half the people that visit this board. I can write the check for these repairs,but it doesn't make sense at my income level.

I almost can't bring myself to turn this car in,but I know that it is only going to break my my heart/wallet in the future.

Bill Shaffer

P.S. still the best interior under $50,000

We need a fellow A4 lawyer on this BBS to help us get the message to Audi. I wish there was a way that we can all sign a petition and send it to Audi with copies of the letter with signatures also sent to each of our state's Better Business Bureau and State Attorney General. This would at least get a formal Audi response why some of the most important items (CA and wet brake issues) go unnoticed!!

I fortunately don't have any problems with my '97 but it still irritates me that Audi doesen't resolve these problems! I'm probably going back to Nissans as I never had anything go bad with 3 Z cars and 2 Maxima's and some I kept 8 years!

I doubt the majority of current A4 owners will ever buy another Audi once the big $ bills start rolling in. If I ever have to pay $2600 for a CA set....the car gets dumped and I won't look back!

What really irritates me is the A4 service manual shows you how to press out the old bushings and replace with new ones! What maybe a $10 bushing....Audi where are the bushings?

And I have coilovers.

Steve S.
97 2.8QM

This is kind of a sticky situation. They may concentrate in corporate law, or contract law, or some other specialty. I, by no means know what I am talking about when it comes to law, but I would think most lawyers reading this board will be reluctant to assist unless they are personally affected by this issue. I know the lawyers I work with daily on my job wouldn't be to willing to volunteer their advice or services.

Steve S.
97 2.8QM

Steve's got it right. Before any lawyer on this board (myself included) could volunteer, it would require an extensive conflict check. In addition, when you're the low man on the totem pole like I am, it's not too likely that the firm I work for would be willing to get involved.

Greg W

Since my and ALL other TT's worldwide are subject to a "voluntary" recall by Audi, I started looking into other forums to glean any info related to "why" a control arm replacent in the TT. I knew that the proposed changes included new springs, altered shocks with different damping/rebound settings a new front sway bar for the FWD and new F&R sway bars for the quattro and control arms for both cars. The only modification I couldnt conceptualize any reason for was the control arms. I've since discovered that its an identical control arm with larger (from 25-30mm) bushings(sloppier). Years ago when I was SCCA local/regional/national racing we had problems maintaining alignment spec's in heavily modified/severely lowered early model Datsun 510's... then B Sedan... later GT2. Every year we had to go thru and replace all rubber suspension bushings front/rear AND steering. Then around 1980 came the advent of urethane bushings instead of rubber. Urethane is a marvelous bushing medium as it never seems to lose its memory. Its harder than rubber and on rebound/damping applications imparts a harder/stiffer, yet more precise feel to the car's ride. In steering components it gives a much enhanced "feel" and contributes heavily to driver feedback. In pivoting suspension components it keeps the cars closer to alignment spec's, prevents "drift/wander" better and it never seems to wear out or break down. The Datsun 510 I mentioned earlier was raced for 4 more years by me without ever replacing another bushing. They were removed, inspected and reinstalled "as-is" in the off-season. That car today is still raced by its current owner in SCCA vintage races and as of 3 years ago, the last time I checked, it was still running those same urethane bushings. This morning when I first started reading the A4 forum I came upon this issue. Saw mention of peoples control arms failing at a concerning rate. Some saying the control arms themselves are good but that upon getting the arms out, they could "push their bushings out with their fingers." And $2600 to replace control arm bushings!?! Someones getting rich!! Other people saying their service writer saying a control arm is "not something that affects safety"... are they outta their minds?? Why ya think "control" is used in its description? Lose one from its anchor points at the wheel or the chassis abruptly at 70mph and you're gonna crash... no if's and's or butts about it... simple as that. Somebody HAS to make/offer control arm bushings for these cars in urethane. I KNOW the guys who race/pro rally them can't be running rubber bushings... urethane is cheap insurance... bulletproof... and lasts forever. Back in the early 80's we even had access to control arm bushings with eccentric (offset) bushings to allow for greater alignment dynamics. We encountered negative camber problems in the area of -3 or more degrees due to radical suspension lowering and offset bushings in the control arms allowed us to dial back into a more desirable -1 to -1.5 degrees.

If all this has been discussed before, please forgive my intrusion. I perused the forum briefly for any post, but didnt delve deeply into it. If it hasnt been, someone might want to investigate it. Its what I'm going to do with my TT instead of allowing Audi oA/AG to detune my car's suspension. Now if Bilstein would just get the front sport shocks out for the TT.

mne,'00 FWD TT blk/blk, lowered H&R's, Borla cat-back, TAP Stage 2 AND Garrett on the way. And promised the 1st set of TT Bilstein sports to land in the U.S. Oh... and urethane control arm bushings soon, even if I have to pay for the mold.

Any unscheduled maintenance over $500 and the car goes. I've driven nothing but VW/Audis for 20 years, but I am not a fanatic -- really. :) This time around I almost bought an Acura CL. One problem was the CL's rear end. :) Another perennial problem was that Japanese cars are just not built for tall people.

Now the quality thing. If you visit a used car dealer that you know and ask to see actuarial tables, they will probably show you. When you buy a 3 or 5 year service contract, your cost is based on statistics for the particular make/model -- just the cold facts, like insurance companies do. Results are compiled from actual claims for service. Numbers include several years, recent years carry more weight. Lower numbers are better, 1 is best.

Here is all I can remember:
Honda, Acura = 1
Audi = 2 or 3 (not sure)
MB, Volvo = 3

Is there another car that handles like an Audi? Hardly. Is the A4 pretty? YES! Is it just a machine? Yes.

99.5 1.8TQM Unwashed

I like that CA stands for Control Arms and Class Action suit.

It would be very nice just to compile and send a list of names stating that the goup is just very unhappy the way Audi is handling the situation. We all send a copy to all states' Better Business Bureaus and Attorney Gernerals just to highlight the fact that the after warranty charges are extreme for a very poorly designed system. I just can't imagine why Audi wouldn't gather up all the bad Control Arms and have them replaced with the best bushings at the time. Use these for out of warranty repair at a very low labor charge. It would smooth the pain a little bit!

Another issue is how we all complain about squeal and brake dust and all it takes is replacing the US spec Mintex pads with the Euro-spec pads!!! Wow, they must have to form a steering committee at Audi to research this and have the stock holders vote on it.....get my drift?

Thanks for the invite to come visit all of you NorCal nuts, but what would I drive....and how would I get it there?
I'll be driving a 4000q with half a million miles on it this winter while my 2.8 becomes a 3.2!
Also, I WILL be getting urethane or Delrin (TBD) bushings/new control arms this winter as well. (Yes, they will be available for any A4 owner) they are in design stage right now.
So, although I will be missing my A4, I will be much happier this spring.
-C.

I had 2 Hondas prior to my A4. Before that, I owned 3 VWs.
I won't give up my Audi to go back to Japanese. I still had lots of quality problems with my 2 Hondas....and they were not even fun to drive. The tolerances of the Hondas were so vague, even when the suspension finally went bad on my Hondas...you could hardly tell.
I'm not at all happy with the C/A issue or the fact that AoA would not help me (lucky you got offered some help!)
I really do love my car and hope Audi wakes up and fixes the issue before they lose their newly found customers. The A4 brought back life to the company....it could also turn off a lot of these new people if they let this one very apparent quality issue continue to fester.
-C.

I think Audi does need to listen, I'm not a litigious person, however.
No, I don't want to see anyone hurt. Yes, I would like to know that Audi is working with the manufacturer of the control arms and the rest of the suspension to make a better one and that it will be replaced in a recall.
Simply replacing a rubber bushing with some better material is not going to help. The tie rod ends, ball joints and such are subject to stress and failure from what I've seen. It would be even more so if you went to a stiffer bushing material without addressing the other parts of the suspension. For the general public, (non-enthusiasts) a stiffer bushing would not be the answer anyway - people would complain about the stiff ride.
It's a tough problem.
My Dad was a Quality Assurance engineer/manager with VWoA...so I know how hard many of these quality issues are. I'm sure they are aware of the problem...I just don't know what is happening to resolve it yet.
I'm not happy that the problem has been ongoing since '96 and I'm very upset that it's SO incredibly expensive to fix.
I would like to see Audi address the issue and take it seriously as a safety issue.
I would certainly give my story as input to a discussion with any customer service or official rep. from Audi. That's why I posted my name. I want to see Audi succeed in this market and want them to realize that they need to step up to the plate here to make sure they don't alienate all the new business/customers they've gotten in recent years.
-Cathleen