View Full Version : Interesting oil info... (long)


John Wilkinson
10-22-1999, 02:37 PM
Hi all,

I just had an enlightening discussion with some MIT engineers (graduates working at MIT that is, not students) about motor oil. We all own 1.8T engines (A4's and Passats), and we were raving about them, and were all in general agreement about what engine oil to use (synthetic, 0W-, 5W-, or 10W-30 for Boston area). The interesting part of the discussion, however, revolved around some things about motor oil relating to warm-up and viscosity grade selection, that I (as a physicist rather than an ME) never knew before.

1st myth shattered: the grade before the 'W' in xW-y refers to the oil's viscosity at 0 C (32 F). I'd always believed this, and I've read it numerous places on the web while researching oil, but it's not true! The SAE has a specification for cold-cranking viscosity at a certain temperature, which varies for the different winter grades. 15W-anything, for example, must have a cold-cranking viscosity of less than 33 Poise at -15 C (5 F). 10W has the same spec, but measured at -20 C (-4 F), 5W is measured at -25 C (-13 F), and 0W is at -30 C (-22 F). (IIRC, 0W is allowed a higher viscosity at -30 C due to the difficulty of making *any* oil flow at -30!)

What this means, is that if 15W is OK down to 5 F, as indicated in the 1.8T owner's manual, 10W is just as good at -4, 5W at -13, etc. It also means that the claim that synthetic 15W-50 (Mobil 1 or other) is better than conventional 5W-30 at low temperatures is incorrect! The 15W-50 may pump better at *really* low temperatures (like -55), but at 5 degrees (the lowest VW recommends for 15W), the 15W-50 synthetic performs exactly like any 15W conventional! This is probably why Mobil and others are quick to point out that their 15W-50 pumps/pours at temperatures as low as conventional 5W-30, but stop short of recommending that it be used in place of a lower winter grade oil. Mobil merely states that, "Mobil 1 Formula 15W-50 can be used where SAE 15W-40, 15W-50, 20W-50, 15W, 20W, 20, 30, 40, or 50 are required."

2nd interesting tidbit: The important thing to do right after startup, when the engine is still warming, is to avoid high engine-speeds, but not necessarily high-load. The reason is this (and again, this applies equally to synthetic and conventional oils of similar viscosity grade): before the oil reaches normal operating temperature (~212 F), where viscosity is about 10 cSt (for an SAE 30 oil), the viscosity is *much* higher -- ~60 cSt for 5W- or 10W-30 and ~120 cSt for 5W- or 15W-50 at 40 C (104 F)!

Assuming that you've waited at least 10 sec for the oil to be pumped to wherever it needs to go, metal to metal contact isn't your worry, even under heavy loads (remember the viscosity is very high at this temp, and high viscosity promotes thick oil films between moving parts). The problem is at high engine speeds (and also within the bearing of the turbo) where high-speeds will cause the viscous oil to thicken its film to reduce it's internal friction.

If your pistons have 'x' in. of clearance between them and the cylinder walls, and you're revving the engine at such a speed that the viscous oil wants to form a film of thickness '2x' in order to minimize friction (twice the film thickness allowing half the shear stress), then the oil may actually pool on _one_side_ of the piston and push it up against the bare cylinder wall on the other side! Rev too high when the oil is too viscous and you may actually push all the oil out of the cylinder. (The cold oil, subjected to extreme shear rates, may literally turn to silly-putty-like consistency, and be stripped from the moving engine parts.) _Then_ you'll get metal-to-metal contact.

Fortunately, this is an extreme case, and doesn't happen often. It also happens less often with energy conserving oils, because their friction reducing properties mean that the film doesn't have to be as thick in order to lower shear stress to acceptable levels. _But_ this does mean that 5W- or 15W-50 users will have to wait longer for their engines to warm-up than do users of energy conserving xW-30. The tighter tolerances in modern engines make them more prone to the problem described above, and are one of the reasons that fewer engine makers recommend the higher viscosity-grade oils.

Just thought I'd pass along the info, and I hope you all enjoyed it!

-John

P.S. I'm working from memory here, about a conversation had earlier in the day, and I have no handy references to check, so please forgive any minor inaccuracies.

David O.
10-22-1999, 04:37 PM

Doc
10-22-1999, 05:31 PM
If I interpret you comments about pooling correctly I’m confused. I’m not sure about the implication that the higher shear stress due to greater rpm will cause the oil to “pool” to one side of the cylinder. These oils are usually considered Newtonian fluids and don’t exhibit shear thinning or viscoelastic properties that might poor distribution of the fluid?

MikeH
10-22-1999, 08:00 PM
You stated that "but at 5 degrees (the lowest VW recommends for 15W), the 15W-50
synthetic performs exactly like any 15W conventional! "

Not so. The 15W rating only defines a maximum viscosity of 3500 cP at -20 deg C. 15W synthetic might, while still conforming to the 15W rating, maintain this viscosity down to very low temperatures. It might also have a lower viscosity (a good thing!) at -20. ]

In other words, the xW rating is a minimum performance specification at low temperatures. It is quite possible that extremely good lubricants perform better than this minimum.

So why not rate the oil as, for example, 0W-50 if it meets this specifications???? Because there are still a bunch of people who think that high viscosity is good and would choose a 15W-50 over a 0W-50.

People in the know will choose 0W-30 over 15W-30 in almost every application. Rating something 0W-50 will just alienate the "higher viscosity is better" crowd.

axel
10-22-1999, 09:04 PM
John, thankyou for that important information. Axel

Ash
10-24-1999, 08:36 AM
...You said high load conditions do not need to be watched as much as high rpm conditions....I just wanted to note that when the engine is under high load, the wastegate will be shut (as in the turbo will be made to spool up) in order to provide higher boost and therefore more power. This means that the TURBO's RPMs will be quite high, since all of the exhaust gases are being used to drive the turbine....and that is not very good for the bearings with cold oil...

So although I agree with you that load is not as important to watch as RPMs, I still think the best thing to do is to stay off the gas (and hence out of high boost/load conditions) and just take it easy until everything is warmed up...


Cheers,
-Ash 98.5 1.8TQMS (APR 1.0 somewhere in transit)

John Wilkinson
10-24-1999, 01:20 PM
nt

John Wilkinson
10-24-1999, 01:41 PM
I hadn't thought about that, but it seems true. An oil company could, for marketing purposes, choose to label its oil 15W even if it met the 10W, 5W, or 0W specification.

I don't know if anybody actually does this with 15W though. Mobil, for one, does *not* recommend that their Tri-Synthetic 15W-50 be used where a lower winter grade is required. They do, however, say that, "Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic Formula 0W-30, Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic Formula 5W-30 and Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic Formula 10W-30 can be used anywhere an SAE 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40, 5W, 10W, 20W, 20 or 30 grade viscosity is recommended." Raising the possibility that even their 10W-30 meets the 0W spec.

BTW, IIRC, the spec for 15W oil is 3500 cP -- as you state above, and *not* 3300 cP as stated in my first post -- , and it is measured at -15 C -- not -20 as you state above.

John Wilkinson
10-24-1999, 02:01 PM
Yeah, I've been thinking about the "pooling" argument -- working it out on paper --, and I don't understand how it could work. If the piston got out-of-center in the bore, and moved to contact the cylinder wall, (theoretically) the force exerted by a Newtonian fluid of any viscosity should rise asymptotically toward infinity, thus preventing the piston from ever actually contacting the wall.

Of course, we know that pistons occaisionally do contact cylinder walls, because they leave score marks on them. I don't know how to explain this, but I suspect it has to do with surface irregularities -- high points on the surfaces making contact before the low points --, and with the motor oils not being ideal Newtonian fluids.

Any fluid mechanics out there to answer our questions? ;)

ErikR
10-24-1999, 05:31 PM
Thank you both! I've been arguing this point for a couple of years with the v8 20w50 crowd.