...If you could actually read German instead of having to rely on crappy translator software, you'd realize that it clearly states that the unit is defective. Good luck trying to fix it.
Also, IIRC, the SQ MAF is the same as the BMW M5 MAF, so don't pay too much of a premium for what is basically a mass-produced product used in a limited run vehicle. Happens frequently, for another example, the Audi RS2 MAF is the same as the Porsche 968 MAF, which is actually cheaper than the stock Audi UrS4/S6 MAF. Frankly, I don't understand the difference in pricing, as both use the same housing. The screen is a bit different and electronically they differ, but from a pure production standpoint, I don't see what makes building one different from the other. Production runs are probably simiar too.
95.5 S6 Avant
93 S4 (for 2 more days)
02-25-2003, 12:04 PM
02-25-2003, 12:55 PM
However if you just plug it into your car it will not work correctly. You need to also change the Injectors, FPR, software at the same time.
02-25-2003, 02:28 PM
Won't make mistake twice.
02-25-2003, 02:39 PM
02-25-2003, 02:52 PM
I figured FPR is fuel pressure regulater. This has to be change to stay up with larger RS2 injectors. But what software has to be changed. Are we talking like some of the MTM upgrades? Or are we taking about some software to work with the 968 MAF?
02-26-2003, 07:53 AM
Here are the Cliff Notes of UrS4 engine tuning. There are three basic levels of chip (software) tuning:
Chip #1: this is for an otherwise stock motor.
Chip #2: this is for use with an RS2 turbo and exhaust manifold (EM).
Chip #3: this is for use with an RS2 turbo, EM, injectors, MAF (968) and FPR.
These chips are available from a couple of different vendors (Hoppen/MTM, Intended Acceleration, etc.). That's it. Mixing and matching generally isn't recommended. The above "recipes" are plug and play. Anything beyond what you see above falls into the "Advanced" category, which requires LOTS of knowledge, trust, money, and perhaps risk (not necessarily in that order).
To specifically answer your question, you will need a chip (two actually) to run different injectors and MAF. Some folks say it's okay to run just injectors, just a MAF, or skip the FPR. Porsche disagrees and so do I. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Find a tuner, figure out what software you want to run, and then match your hardware to the software. Each program is written for one specific hardware setup; don't deviate. Don't buy chips of eBay. Don't buy chips from you-know-who. Search the archives of the S-Car list for more information.
02-26-2003, 08:48 AM
02-26-2003, 03:02 PM
02-27-2003, 05:19 AM
I can tell you from a tuner's point of view (I am a tuner) the following things:
The RS2 FPR isn't necessary because its pressure rating is 0.2 Bar lower than the stock AAN unit. This means you'll have very little more fuel with the AAN FPR and RS2 injectors, which isn't bad in itself. But selling a 100$ RS2 part isn't bad either.
Then the RS2 MAF is useless because it will break the wire as well as the stock unit from 420-430 HP-on. But the point is that most tuners tell you these "upgrades" are absolutely necessary because they can't modify RS2 software for stock components, and this example is the best proof of it. It's pretty easy to modify RS2 based software for a stock MAF but when you don't even have a clue how the chips work (as some US tuners do), no wonder they all tell you to install the RS2 MAF because otherwise your car will run like crap.
Jimmy, you're talking about mixing and matching between different brands' chips, let me tell you very seriously (no BS) that some of the very very reputable and experienced US tuners do these sorts of things and then come up with a "super stage x++" that they've spent months developing! Yeah right, go tell this to an end-user but not to someone who knows how chips work.
Sorry for the trouble but some part of the truth had to be said.
02-27-2003, 08:51 AM
Why would they change from the stock AAN FPR to the slightly different RS2 one if it wasn't necessary? As a manufacturer the cost of one vs. the other from the supplier would presumably be the same. Clearly there was some reason for it, probably to correct the constant slightly rich result that you'd end up with. Yeah, running lean is much worse than running rich, but why end up with a non-ideal mixture? And of all the parts you can buy to complete your RS2 package, the FPR is one of the cheapest.
As far as the US tuners' chips, when you're talking about chips for the AAN engine, there are mainly two people that 99% of the market takes seriously, Hoppen and Intended Acceleration. The others are also-rans and not credible. Ned at Intended Acceleration has been doing this for a LONG time now and backs his product completely. Of all the tuners out there he's probably one of the more responsive and responsible. Hoppen distributes MTM and Lehman software, all of which is Europe based. You obviously know who Jo Hoppen, Roland Mayer and Hans Lehman are.
I'd like a little more info on your experience and credentials in regard to AAN chip tuning as well as how you provide support and backing should a problem arise while using your products.
02-27-2003, 02:31 PM
I wasn't trying to explain this from a manufacturer's (Porsche's and Audi's) point of view but from a customer's and a tuner's instead. First off, I've also been a customer like you and even at that time I didn't agree to buy a brand new RS2 MAF while mine was still doing fine and the new one didn't provide any considerable improvement over the stock item. Regarding the RS2 3.8 Bar FPR, I don't know the logic behind it (I didn't develop the RS2 engine mind you) but for someone who claims they can tune an ECU, there's no big deal in altering the right maps in the fuel/ignition chip in order to accomodate for a 4.0 Bar FPR and have the "ideal" mixture. By the way, what is "ideal" and what is "non-ideal" for you? Do you know how the ECU adjusts the mixture?
I have always wondered how much the famous US tuners actually knew about their stuff. As you said, Jo Hoppen is an MTM and Lehmann retailer (don't get me wrong, there's nothing to blame him about with this) but I very strongly doubt he could do a custom chipset for you. He's selling proven products that work fine *within the hardware limits they've been programmed for*.
I won't go too far about Ned from IA because I know some things some of you apparently aren't aware of and as I've already been flamed, I don't intend to start a flame wars. No other comment on this subject will be made on this board.
If you want to test these people's real knowledge, now please go and ask them if they can do a chipset for an AAN engine with a K29/28 turbo over a sport quatro exhaust manifold, 7A cams, RS2 injectors, a huge IC, a 5 Bar FPR, a Sport quattro MAF and 8.5:1 compression ratio. If they say they have readily available software for you, simply don't believe them, it's total BS.
Ask them for a real-time tuning session (on a dyno or on the road, any real tuner should be able to do so). If they can do it (and if you can prove that) then I will believe you about the fact that they do their own chip mods. Otherwise I won't, because the mods I've listed are good for 500 HP and no one can sell a readily made chip for those hardware mods, especially when such mix and match has been done and when no one has already done that exact mix and match of parts, mostly because there are easier choices. But I wanted it to be complicated on purpose so no one (not even MTM themselves) would have readily available software for such a setup.
If you know the 20vKruemmer_files yahoo group, there are 2 guys from the US running UrS4s with custom software from a German Tuner, well now guess why they had that German Tuner (and no, he's not Herr Roland Mayer, nor Herr Hans Lehmann who's not even a German) come from Germany to the US if you guys have so good tuners in the US?
Point is that many people will say "I can do it for xxx$" but when it comes to actually doing it, they will install you a chip and then you'll see that their readily available chip just doesn't work on your particular setup. This is what happened to both those guys who are now running (for the "weakest" of them) 475 HP at the flywheel and 375 at the wheels. But anyway, I think you guys probably know better than me what your tuners put in their chips, that's for sure, but possibly you'll start asking yourselves some questions after reading my post...
I don't intend to kill anyone's business with mine, but I just wanted to reveal part of the truth, the stuff some people aren't really proud of.
Regarding my experience, I have been studying the Motronic ECUs for quite a long while and the maps inside the eproms for 1 year with the help of a German engineer who has worked in the Motorsport in the 80s and who's now doing chip tuning as a hobby.
I've been doing my own mods for a few months and everything I might sell has been tested with an exhaust gas temp gauge/probe and a wideband O2 sensor/display. Regarding support/backup and so on, my current policy and offer is 1 year free software upgrades in case something doesn't work as good as it should, and support by email or phone for troubleshooting/getting parts and so on, even if what went wrong isn't my fault, should something go wrong.
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not provinding you with a warranty against engine damage, as no one in this business does either. My AAN "stage 1" chips have been tested by my friend (I have no AAN yet to play with personnally, only a "slightly" modded 3B) for 20.000km now and the conclusion is that if something had to be wrong with my chips, the engine would have blown since quite a while. My stage 3 chips for a stock AAN with an RS2 turbo and 2.5 Bar MAP sensor has been running for a few months in the heat of South Africa (mind you, it's now summer over there) and it runs great on 97 RON fuel. The owner of the car is a 200q20v lister by the way, but maybe you guys don't know about Audifans?
I am not playing with other people's engines as some Ebay sellers do (especially in Germany, though some of the chips sold over there are true copies of good originals) and my work isn't simply copy work but has been development for months, lots of sleepless nights of head-scratching with binary code in front of the eyes, etc. I think if you guys knew the 200q20v list on Audifans you might have already have heard of me, so your, um, "welcome" is quite understandable but not very nice as far as I'm concerned.
I don't do this chip tuning activity as a full time job and I don't get much profit out of it (most of the profit is reinvested in development material, ECUs, software, hardware and fuel for testing), thus my post was only intended for those who think the prices out there aren't correct. Now if you guys don't have problems paying those prices for off the shelf chips that have been developed years ago and which costs have been recouped long ago, I'll mind my own business and never try to help people anymore as it seems such things aren't really appreciated here. If so you will, I won't post on Audiworld anymore and will cancel my membership.
02-28-2003, 08:29 AM
It seems you got the impression I was rude to you or ripping on you. That is not the case, but you're not the first to try to sell inferior stuff on Audiworld. Then when it's from overseas, well, I had questions that you have now answered.
Yes, I (and plenty of others here as well) am on audifans as well, but on the AAN S-car lists, as that's what I have. You might want to try subscribing to those as well since there are a lot fo people there who I am sure may be interested. (Lot more Ur-S cars over here than 200-20v's)
Further, a lot of people over here paid a lot of money for their cars (they seem to hold their value over here than over there) and are tyring to add power, but tend to be a bit more conservative than over by you. Many oeople want proven components, and a "factory" upgrade path adds a lot of security. Yeah, there are a few that have over 400 hp, and I probably know the two people in particular that you speak of, but for every one of those I am sure there are at least a hindred that would be happy to elevate their cars to RS2-like power and reliability. Frankly, the MTM, Lehmann, and IA solutions help to do that and have been around a long time doing the same thing. (as far as Lehmann not being German, what's that have to do with anything? I am German and will be the first to tell you that Germans don't have a lock on ability and skill when it comes to automobiles.
So in conclusion, I welcome more choices in the marketplace, if you can supply the same or better product for less money, great! Go for it, I wish you good luck.
02-28-2003, 02:29 PM
I was indeed under the impression you were ripping on me, rude is not the right term actually... Of course I can understand your feeling when you noticed another guy trying to sell some copies or some bad chips...
It's true that when it comes to customer testimonials, I can't provide with any at this time, possibly one (the 200q20v lister?) but I've been and I still am working very hard in order to get the best possible result without compromising reliability of the engine itself or a related component.
Re: RS2 parts, the turbo, manifold, injectors and head gasket (for 3B engines and early AANs) are lots of times more important for reliability than the MAF and the FPR.
Thanks for the explanation and I hope I'll talk again to you soon!
Mit freundliche grüssen to Jim and everyone here!
03-02-2003, 09:06 AM
...didn't find any. However, perhaps I didn't communicate well enough, so let me clarify my statements.
Minea said > Then the RS2 MAF is useless because it will break the wire as well as the stock unit from 420-430 HP-on.
Whoa, stop right there. This tells me that you didn't fully understand my intent. My "edumacation" post was for the majority of folks who will only chip tune their car, or perhaps move on to the RS2 turbo. Very few people will continue to more advanced states of tune. Your 420+ hp statement tells me that your comments begin to apply with ADVANCED states of tune (cannot be accomplished with RS2 equipment), which is not (and cannot) be covered in my single post.
In many cases, you talk about custom chip programming. Yes, I agree that the chips can be programmed for any number of variations of hardware, however, most people will purchase pre-progammed chips designed using one hardware configuration, and it is my recommendation that they do not deviate from that configuration. That IS NOT stupid advice.
I appreciate your comments on this subject. I am very aware of what is going on in with 20Vt engine development, but again, my post was a basic primer for most UrS owners. Advanced tuning concepts don't tend to find their way to this forum. I hope that you more understand my intent.
Thanks again for your comments.
03-02-2003, 11:29 AM
First off thanks for your post!
What kind of irritated me was what you said in the "edumacation" post stating people had to adapt their hardware to the software. I can't agree with this because no one in Europe does this, all people who want to spend a little money in tuning their engines will get the RS2 turbo, exhaust manifold, injectors and go to a tuner to have the software custom-tailored for that hardware. From a performance point of view, the RS2 MAF brings little to none improvements over the stock item and doesn't bring much in terms of reliability either. I agree the RS2 hardware is good for 380HP, maybe 390 or 400 putting high strain on the turbo so my point about 420+ HP on an RS2 MAF wasn't very appropriate.
I know Lehmann and MTM mainly sell software for the full RS2 conversion but if you ask MTM directly, they will have a readily available chip for a RS2-ed AAN but with the stock MAF, BTAskedThat.
Now, can someone tell me who in the US has software for an AAN with an RS2 turbo and stock everything else? Does one of them at least offer such a chip upgrade? It seems to me no one does it so this is my point about them not offering anything custom. I can understand your point of recommending the people to follow a proven way of improving their cars with the full RS2 package, but how would it be bad for someone if they break their stock K24, get an RS2 and install it because they need to get their car running BUT don't have any money for other upgrades to be able to run a chip made by IA or MTM or whomever? Does this mean that they will have to have their cars run like cr*p until they can afford to swap all the parts and get the proper software upgrade? I don't think so, but then again, I don't own a shop and I don't have any interest in selling upgrade parts (no offense intended in case you do)...
This is actually how the 200q20v lister and UrS4 owner from South Africa got to run a chipset I did for him, because he had an RS2 turbo and only that, and he couldn't drive his car properly because of fuel cut-outs and so on.
Thanks for your answers,
03-02-2003, 07:30 PM
Yes, there are chips available from US tuners that are designed for use with just an RS2 turbo:
Even though Hoppen sells this as a kit, the software is available separately. Also, the Hoppen chip for the "full boat" RS2 setup isn't even listed on their site, but it is also available through them or their distributors. Most Hoppen chip upgrades are sourced from MTM, while the full RS2 software is from Lehmann.
For the record, I do not program, sell or distribute UrS4 chip upgrades. I have used the Hoppen/MTM Stage I and as soon as I get the e//S2 up and running, it will initially be using the full RS2 Hoppen/Lehmann setup.