I tried to use 3M Hand Glaze today since Car Care On-line recommend it for removing swirls. Well, I just added more swirls. The shine and overall look is excellent but the swirls are still there. I'd like to figure out exactly what people are doing right and wrong. Please reply if you have a black car.<p>1) Do you have a problem with swirls?<br>2) Do you use car wash soap or just the water and wipe down approach?<br>3) How do you dry your car?<br>4) How do you apply polish and wax?<br>5) How do you remove polish and wax?<br>6) Why do you think your method works or doesn't work? <p>Thanks,<br>Mark (black 98.5 2.8 QMS)

1) Yes<br>2) Bucket with Meguiars 00 car wash soap. I use a mitt.<br>3) I dry with either the Absorber or 100% cotton terry towels from discount store being carfull to avoid using edges of towel.<br>4) Cotton terry applicator pads.<br>5) 100% cotton terry towels from discount store.<br>6) I appear to be getting swirl marks from the terry applicators and the towels. I have to apply alot of pressure with the towels and feel that the towels are causing the swirl marks. I will probably try something smooth and soft next time like diapers. <p>Mark (98.5 black 2.8 QMS)

1) Do you have a problem with swirls?<br>No. A4 is silver, but I have used same process on dark green w/no swirl problem (and I do know what swirls are).<br>2) Do you use car wash soap or just the water and wipe down approach?<br>Hose off first, followed by wipe down, top first, with mitt and water from hose. Only use soap/bucket AFTER this step, and only if there is a reason to use soap, such as road film.<br>3) How do you dry your car?<br>Clean Terry towels (some even w/Polyester content. Horrors! But they don't scratch.)<br>4) How do you apply polish and wax?<br>Lately with foam applicator pad, by hand. Have also used terry covered foam applicator pads and they are fine also.<br>5) How do you remove polish and wax?<br>Terry towels, same as #3.<br>6) Why do you think your method works or doesn't work?<br>Does not grind dirt into finish like the pure bucket and soap method does. In my opinion, this is the root cause of most people's swirl problems. Would you take a damp washcloth to a dry car and scrub over the finish to wash it? Of course not, but the bucket of soap and mitt/sponge on a dirty car isn't a lot better. No matter what you do, you're going to be pushing dirty water around the paint. And the rinse water in your bucket, even if 5 gallons, is going to be at least a little dirty. If you are flooding the surface with clean water from a hose while you lightly wipe, you give the dirt every chance to run off the car instead of scrubbing it over the paiint.<p>I've never seen a purpose in using soap every time the car is washed. If I see road film on the surface when I dry, then it's time to use soap. Alternatively, a product like Fast Finish (one of the in-between washing cleaners) gets it off after washing and drying. I wax probably 4 times per year with an abrasive-free product, and don't use polishes/abrasives unless they are needed (which is very rarely and usually only in a small area where something has rubbed on the finish, bird mess, etc.)

1) Do you have a problem with swirls?<br>Does a bear . . . oh, sorry, that's old. YES!<br>2) Do you use car wash soap or just the water and wipe down approach?<br>Normally water, soap if grimy.<br>3) How do you dry your car?<br>Air and Towel carefully dabbed around car<br>4) How do you apply polish and wax?<br>Foam applicator, quite thick, small circles. Usually two applications if my arms can stand it!<br>5) How do you remove polish and wax?<br>Cotton Underpants (not the ones I am wearing!)<br>6) Why do you think your method works or doesn't work? <br>Looks great for about an hour or until either the dew, road dust or city road grime hit it! I used to do this for my Mustang GT (which had much tougher paint than the Audi black!) and kept it beautiful for 100,000 miles, but I drove that myself and babied it with highway miles!<p>In other words: I waxed the Audi twice, and now forget it. I'm just lucky if the bumper isn't cracked in too many places and the holes in the paint don't go all the way to the metal, never mind the swirls! Sigh! But it is a nice looking car, even with imperfect paint, and the contrast between the wide aluminum rims/tires and the all-black 1.8T body looks "mean"!<p>I think making *very* small (1") circles helps with the swirls, but I'm not willing to put that much time into the daily driver. Maybe on my next Boxster . . . ?!? ;-)

1) Yes, but I would call them light scratches rather than swirls. I have white paint, BTW, so they are less noticable (but I probably have a much more discriminating eye than most).<p>2) I alway use a good brand car wash soap (like Meguiar's) since it helps lubricate the paint to prevent scratching. If my car is really dirty, I will just wipe an area once then re-dip the wash mit in the soapy water. If you want to go one better, you should have an extra bucket with just plain water to rinse the wash mit out in (I currently do not do this).<p>3) Remove the nozzel from the hose and flood the paint with the fat stream of water. This will cause most of the water to sheet off the car. What little water remains I remove with a plush terry bath towel.<p>4) I find that (at least by hand and with the products I use) polish is best applied with a terry covered foam applicator, and wax with a plain foam applicator. I try to apply the polish in straight line back and forth motions, and I apply wax in a circular motion.<p>5) I use plush terry towels to remove both polish and wax.<p>6) I think my method works well enough to meet my expectations of how I want my car to look based upon the amount of effort I am able to put into it. I think there is a comfort level that you need to reach in regards to the products and procedures that you use. There are always trade offs involved, and you need to find and accept the ones that work for you (and be willing to compromise in certain situations). Keep your mind open to new products and procedures, and employ those that make sense to you and that are do-able based upon the amount of time and effort that you want to put into taking care of your car. <p>After 18 months my A4 is still close to showroom condition, so I am comforatble with how I am currently taking care of it. However, lately I am finding it increasingly harder to take as good care of it as I have been. This is due in part to it getting darker much ealier (so I'm not able to easily wash it after work) and to the frequent weekend rains we have had (compounded by dirty/muddy roads in the area from new construction in the area). It is a never ending battle that is slowly wearing me down towards the point of submission (such as Big O has reached!)

<br>1) Do you have a problem with swirls?<br>Only when I try to take shortcuts, or get sloppy with my technique.<p>2) Do you use car wash soap or just the water and wipe down approach?<br>Rinse car in shade, let soak and rinse again. I try to remove as much crud with the rinse as possible before washing with 100% cotton towel (bound edges trimed off). Rinse out towel before returning to suds bucket. Start at the top and work down, wash rims last.<p>3) How do you dry your car?<br>100% cotton towels. All towels used only on car, washed after every use. Dry using no fabric softener sheets, fold and store in duffell bag.<p>4) How do you apply polish and wax?<br>Apply polish and wax with foam applicators (by hand). Rinse out applicators frequently and wring dry.<p>5) How do you remove polish and wax?<br>100% cotton diapers (used on car only!). Wash and care for as per towel instructions.<p>6) Why do you think your method works or doesn't work? <br>Don't let anything get on towels. Towels/foam applicators/polish/wax/car wash soap, none of these things scratch paint, it's dirt that gets on these things that does the damage. If you drop a pad/towel, throw it away. Don't even think of using it on your car ever again (well, you can use it to apply protectant to your tires, but that's about it.<p>Please feel free to check out my car in the registry and decide if these methods work for yourself. Photo of car was made about a month ago, car is 1.5yrs old.<p>Robert Jordan<br>

You should be applying the wax in a straight line the same way the air flows over the car. This way you should have no swirls fron the waxing...<br>You'll probaqbly have to strip the current wax surface and start over again with a fresh coat.

1) Do you have a problem with swirls?<br>No swirl marks, but I do have fine scratches.<p>2) Do you use car wash soap or just the water and wipe down approach?<br>I use a car wash soap (Sonax).<p>3) How do you dry your car?<br>I use the P21S drying towel.<p>4) How do you apply polish and wax?<br>I use my hand to apply wax. And I use a terry cloth covered sponge for the polish.<p>5) How do you remove polish and wax?<br>100% cotton flannel.<p>6) Why do you think your method works or doesn't work? <br>I think it works because I use a linear motion to put on and take off the wax/polish instead of the traditional circular motion.<br>

Robert, your car looks great!<p>I also wanted to second the notion of washing the rags/towels/applicators after each use. I do this, too, and even add a little bleach if I have it and I run everything through an extra rinse cycle before drying.<br>

Call me a sadist, but I love black cars. Unfortunately swirl marks are a fact of car care, no matter what color. They just only show up on black. All the previous suggestions are spot on. The only tip I can offer is one that might make you cringe, but it works. If you are really anal enough to want them swirl marks gone, at least temporarily, only one thing will do. BLACK WAX. You won't believe the finish when you are done. They tend not to be as durable, so if you don't garage your car, expect to do this about every three months, otherwise every six. <p>Michael 98.5 1.8T qms Neuspeed<br>

Common sense tells me that the swirls are not created by the application of the wax, but rather the removal of the wax. Therefore, the application method shouldn't matter.<p>Mike

Mark,<p>From Motor Trend:<p>"When waxing paint, the best depth and sheen—especially on dark finishes—can be obtained through a showcar technique called a triple coat. Here, the first coat is applied in a linear motion (say, in a front-to-back direction). The second coat is then applied perpendicular to the first (for instance, in a top-to-bottom motion). Finally, a third coat is applied diagonally to the first two. "<p><ul><li><a href="http://www.motortrend.com/may98/cc/cc_f.html">Motor Trend CAR CARE</a></li></ul>

Actually, the reasoning for applying the wax in straight lines is an attempt to minimize swirling effects. That is, when applying in circles, you can wind up with those nice "swirlies". However, if you apply in a straight line, the reasoning is that the swirl marks will be straight and less noticeable if you do get them. Its just that circular swirls are just so much more pronounced (especially with a nice bright sunbeam lighting up the paint surface).<p>And yes, application of wax can cause swirls. Think of it this way, most people use those foam applicators and apply in a uniformly circular pattern. They then use a nice soft cloth to remove the wax. However, I don't see too many people that remove their wax in a consistent pattern. Instead, they randomly buff the area where the wax has just been applied. Circular swirls are too uniform too be caused by this removal method whereas those foam applicators aren't the softest things around :)<p>BTW, remember that any car that has been purchased has been buffed by a mechanical machine and most likely already has cobwebbing. Since wax does a damn good job of hiding the cobwebbing, the swirls are barely noticeable. This is easily viewed on a car that has some degree of cobwebbing. The car looks great right after the wax job (none or very little cobwebbing present) but then as the wax deteriorates, the cobwebbing becomes more and more pronounced.

I really don't believe it matters how you put the wax on, especially if you are using a pure wax. I use a foam applicator (which is quite soft, and is what most major wax companies recommend for application these days) with Meguiar's #26 paste and use a circular motion. If the surface is clean and smooth (as it should be) this stuff goes on like butter and there is no way it is scratching the paint. Very little to no pressure is needed to apply it. Now when removing the wax I could see the removal method possibly making a difference. The same goes for when you wash the car or dry it, or when applying an agressive cleaner. Still, I would bet that most scratches ("swirls") are really a result of the way the car was washed more than anything else. As evidence to my thoughts, I have some light longitudinal scratches on the top of the doors (where the metal meets the glass). When I wax and polish these areas I usually employ a circular motion. But when I remove the wax and polish in these areas, or wash and dry these areas, I primarily use a longitudial motion.<p>In short, you are probably going to get some light scratches no matter what kinds of motions or techniques you use, it is just a matter of preference whether you think long straight scratches are more appealing than short circular ones. There are a lot of other things that I think have a better chance of scratching the paint than the way you apply wax (such as the cleansliness of your towels/rags/sponges/applicators, waxing an improperly prep'd surface, how often wax/polish removal towels and applicators are turned to clean areas, washing technique, quality of car care products, etc).<p>If you have major scratches or swirls showing, it is more than likely dealer (or should I say detailer) inflicted damage from when your car was prep'd. A buffer has never touched my paint simply because I asked them not to detail it before I took delivery (got a coupon for a free detailing instead, but doubt if I will ever use it). I did not see the need to buff out a new car. Instead I put on a pure coat of carnauba and then 6 months later I polished and waxed it myself (and continue to do so). After 18 months, any scratches I have are few, light, and are barely noticable even under the scrutiny of the late afternoon sun.

Swirls and scratches are two very different things. However, I have always applied wax the same way. I use circles toward the center of each panel, and straight lines on the edges (to minimize the chance of leaving wax residue around edges). I have NEVER gotten swirl marks. Just ask the many people who have seen my car at Northeast events!<p>I have only gotten swirl marks when using a machine to buff with. I do this ONLY when absolutely necessary, and I used to detail cars professionally - so I know how to handle a buffer properly. <p>Also, cobwebs are not usually on the vehicle when you get it. They do appear from washing the car the wrong way, and especially from going through automatic car washes (which I do NOT do). They can be removed with a cleaner (example: Meguiar's Pre-Wax Cleaner OR Meguiar's #2). Keeping them away is often a challenge. All it takes is one bad wash and they are back.<p>I have some nightmarish memories of when I used to detail cars. I did it professionally at a shop with a bunch of serious hacks. We also did work for a local auto dealership. When customers ordered paint sealant for $600, I opened a bottle of Teflon-based sealant which couldn't have cost more than $4, and put a coat on the car. What a complete ripoff. This was right out of high-school. <p>Then, throughout college, I did it privately. Even back then, I used Mothers products. First I would buff with pre-wax cleaner, then follow with sealer/glaze, and finish with the california gold carnauba wax. It did a great job. <p>There was one time when I enlisted the help of a friend to do a 325is. He put the wax on and didn't wash the sponge off thoroughly. There was a small pebble in the sponge! He left circular SCRATCHES all over this dark blue Bimmer. Ouch! I rebuffed the whole car. On that particular day, I felt like a big hack. From that point on, I worked alone!<p>Mike<br><ul><li><a href="http://www.mck.com/a4">Northeast A4 Group</a></li></ul>

I must agree that the car will be scratched no matter what. It just seems to be that the circular versus directional application is a long standing thing (folklore?). I myself don't buy this argument, it's just something I have heard "explained" by others in years past and have attempted to reason out - poorly I guess :(<p>I myself use a Carnauba wax that is applied by hand. (This is the easiest - and fun - way to get wax on a car :) I also use another Carnauba wax for in-between waxings that goes on with a foam applicator. Since I keep all my detailing equipment in excellent condition, I have no problems with foam either. Keep in mind that many people don't exactly follow good detailing rules. In this case, the paint can be damaged by a simple foam applicator due to contaniments on the surface of the applicator. Also, I have seen many people applying wax under very heavy pressure.<p>It is possible that a car can get to you without being touched by a buffer but; if 10 cars come in on a carrier, I would bet that the chances are very high that they will all be processed the same way by some hack without any thought that car #5 is not to be touched. I myself do not trust dealers enough to believe that they would deliver my car straight from the factory untouched. Plus, there are times when cars are buffed at the port of call for some reason or other (as in my wife's Toyota back in 92 - pissed me off big time) Although on a positive note from that, my brother wetsanded her car to a nice glassy sheen (bonus removal of the dreaded orange peel too)!<p>Now as to scratches. I believe there are two distinct types of scratches that we are discussing. The first are the ones you describe and are caused by washing/waxing/etc. The second are what I believe are what most people complain about - the circular swirls or cobwebbing which IMHO are *way* too uniform to be caused by someone simply removing wax or drying a car incorrectly - I stand by my belief that these actions would never be uniform enough to produce such patterns - scratches, yes; fine consistent swirling, no. I believe these are the people who have had their cars buffed with or without their knowledge, went through automatic washes (horrors), or have done it themselves with a polishing compound (some people go way overboard with this).<p>Like you, my dealer has never touched my car since I wouldn't trust them with anything concerning my paint. My car is over 2 years old and is in the same condition as yours - no cobwebbing but some light scratches. I also assume that my car has not been touched by a buffer.<p>BTW, it's good to see someone else who realizes that the true test of a wax job is under the bright sun. I see too many people with crappy wax jobs who think their car kicks a** just because it looks good in the shade. I can make any car look good in the shade with any crappy wax. :)

See my comment above...<p>BTW, I can't wait to see that wax job of yours at a future NE event ;) My detailing techniques have come from years of tutoring from my younger brother (ex-8 year professional detailer) who had a perfect black car that he somehow kept in perfect condition - one of the reasons he said he would never buy a black car unless it was a third car for occasional use only.<p>I must disagree on the cobwebs not usually being on the car when you get it line. I submit that most cars have been damaged(in my eyes) by the dealer prepping. I have seen many a car that has been prepped by the dealer only to suffer cobwebbing. Of course, cobwebs don't exist in the dealer's eyes ;)<p>BTW, great profit margin on that sealant job - must have been a defense contractor running the shop ;)