I am new to this list, and just test drove a '99 A4 Q (5-speed, of course). I am asking those<br>experienced to the list, what am I missing by purchasing a pre-'98 A4. Is the 172 hp engine<br>that much slower than the 190 hp? I love the handling of the car and the sharp steering - but<br>the new car payment will be a stretch. Will I still get decent power buying a pre-owned '96?<br>I assume a '96 handles as well. What about Quattro handling vs front drive? Any torque steer?<p>BTW I own a 1995 Infiniti J30 and I want tighter handling, better steering, a lighter car and the<br>more comfy seat of the A4! If I purchase new, it will be next year - a '99 A4 with just the sports<br>package. Please comment! Thanks in advance..<p>Mark Collett

There are two different ones....here is the low down....<p>1996/1997 2.8L V6 12V - The A4 initially came to the US as a 1996 2.8 12V in both 5-speed and automatic trim (not tiptronic). The car is 172 bhp. The main issue that is brought up by 12V owners is a flat spot in the power curve at low rpm. This can be almost completely remedied by the purchase and installation of a modified throttle body. I have a 97 2.8 12V car myself. Zero to 60 in 8.0 seconds (quattro version). This car DID NOT have the sports package available...so you will need to do something to improve handling.<p>1998/98.5/99 2.8L V6 30V - In 98 the 30V engine was produced having 5 valves per cylinder. This came in both the 5-speed and tiptronic version. The car has 190 bhp. This car has a bit more pickup at low rpm. Zero to 60 in about 7.1 seconds (quattro version). The sports package on these cars was only a $400 option...very worthwhile.<p>Getting a new 99 versus an older 96 or 97 car is obviously your choice. If you can afford, and want to pay $33 - $35K for a new 99 2.8 30V, that is one option. If you want to look around for a nice 96 2.8, and you are not a power hungry individual this car may be fine. It will cost in the $21-24K, depending upon options, location, mileage, etc. You can then spend about $1-2K improving the handling with various devices.<p>I hope I have helped.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM<br>with the following modifications:<br>1) H&R Coilover suspension<br>2) Neuspeed anti-sway bars<br>3) TAP modified throttle body<br>4) K&N panel air filter<br>5) Brembo cross-drilled Brake Rotors (front only)<br>6) Ronal R-28 17X8.5" wheels<br>7) Pirelli P7000SS 225/45/ZR17 tires<br>8) Remus muffler<p>Still to get installed:<br>1) Steel braided brake lines<br>2) ATE super blue brake fluid

.......you can't buy an ECU chip ($300-$600) with the 172 hp 2.8 12V engine. A good chip for the 30V will net you about 12 hp. My Wett 2.8 30V kicks out 205+ hp (the stock 30V really puts out 193 hp, not 190), with a 217 ft-lb peak torque and a superior torque curve than the 12V.<p>That 33 hp differential is hard to wipe out - I don't care how much you mod out your 12V, not to mention that flat spot in the low RPMs that Steve mentioned.<p>I had a '93 Audi 90 manual with the 172 hp 2.8 12V. It was certainly a nice car, but the 2.8 30V feels and is *a lot* faster. <p>BTW Steve, $33-35K for the 30V? I got my 98 2.8 30V for $30,200. That was with leather and Tiptronic. The salesman threw the sports steering wheel in too. <p>But, Steve's right - definitely get the sports package. The car I got off the lot doesn't have it. I wish it did!<p>Rick<p>PS My guess is that Steve will get an S4 and then he'll have his thirty valves AND twin turbos. :-)

When tha A4 came out a couple years back I rushed to test drive it. Loved the looks and handling but 172hp is not enough, so no sale. Three weeks back I ordered a '99 A4Q with sport package as the only option and will follow with the Wett chip upon arrival. Do not get the 172hp car w/o sport package, you'll be unhappy in the long run. ALSO shop hard the car I ordered even adding the Wett chip will be less than 30K. They need you to buy the car more than you need any one dealer, go to KBB.com get cost info and tell tham what you want to pay!

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If you get $1K off...that is $34.3K. Yes you can order and get a bare bones 30V with the sports package for $30K or so. No dealer will order one for their allocation this way...especially here in California. Rick, on the track, and this was proven again on October 4th, even the Wett 1.8T cars do not blow my slower 2.8 12V away....it is pretty close down that straightaway. If I got a good exit on the turn going to the straight away....a rare A4 would find their way around me by the first turn. Ask Rodney Ow about my performance compared to his 98 2.8QM 30V......my 12V was "definitely" competitive. Again, the cars (96/97 2.8QM, 98/99 2.8QM, and 98/99 2.8QTip, and 97-99 1.8TQM with chip) are close in any trim level...it is the driver that is more of a defining factor in a competitive situation. I personally could not afford a $33-34K car right now....mortgage/kids/private schools/etc.....so I got what I got ....a nice sports sedan, 97 2.8QM, for $28.8K.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM

..... especially on the track. Even if I had an S4, I wouldn't want to face you...............<p>I think I picked up my 98 2.8 30V at the perfect time, July 1997. Plus, in Austin, TX the demand is probably not as great as in California<p>Rick<p>PS Com'on Steve, you know you want that S4............. :-)<br>

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S4...whats that?<p>Steve S.<br>

...like how much is it, how much is installation, and what exactly what a throttle body is. I dunno if I can afford a newer A4 than a 96 when i decide to buy a new car...I was really bent on getting a 1.8T and chipping it, but i dunno if i can afford that. Modified throttle body sounds promising. Info, please? Thanks.<p>Andrew

This is a fine discussion but Mark C's original comments...<br>I still say get the 30V car. And I got my '99, A4Q w/sport package in Nor Cal for under $30k, you've got to shop and play hardball. This was a factory order to my spec.! I'm also all for new, warrenty ect.<br>Where do you get on the track? I've raced carts and autocrossed 911's but it's been a few years. I'm in Nor Cal.

It is my understanding that two aftermarket shops sell modified throttle bodies for the 2.8 V6 12V engine. This engine is found in the earlier 2.8L A4s (1996/1997) and it the Audi 90 that was the precursor to the A4. The modification includes boring out (making the whole larger) the primary throat of the two stage throttle body. In stock form the primary throat is rather small in diameter....the modification is to make this primary throat larger thereby allowing more air to flow into the engine. What this modification accomplishes is getting rid of the unresponsive part of the power curve in the 12V engine. Schaumberg Audi use to do this modification and they claimed an increase in flow of about 35%. A picture and instructions for installing this modification are found in the FAQ section on this website. Don S wrote the article (if I remember correctly) and I supplied the photos. Don S did his own installation...I attempted then decided to have someone else do it for me. I have changed throttle bodies before on VWs, but this installation was not quite as easy as those. Depending upon how mechanically minded you are, you may or may not want to tackle this installation yourself). The cost ranges from $275-295 for the unit, with a $300 core charge (meaning you have to give your stock throttle body back to them). The vendors that supply these throttle bodies are: Total Audi Performance (Homosasa FL) and Hoppen Motorsports (Sarasota FL). Hey, Florida must the throttle body capitol of the US!<p>Again, if I were getting a 12V A4 now, I would do this modification FIRST. It was the most bang for the buck on the 12V car.<p>Steve S.<br>97 2.8QM

I absolutely loved my '96. I specifically bought a non-quattro model since I live in Arizona where the ground is wet all of about 5 minutes a year, and the 172hp motor really didn't need any extra dry-weather traction, not to mention the weight penalty of AWD. With the FWD + manual tranny configuration, it wasn't too bad performance wise. Virtually NO torque steer, given Audi's multi-link front suspension. But it did lack juevos and felt pretty lethargic below 4,000 RPMs. Needless to say, it was not a street light racer. However, the 12-valve was silky smooth, produced good hi-end power and ran like a champ once up to speed. Like Steve S. said, you can modify the 12-valve, albeit w/o help from an aftermarket ECU, to perform better.<br>After driving the 30-valve motor I no longer felt the same about my '96 and HAD to have a new one. I will say though, the engine is the only reason I got rid of my '96. The added power, increased torque curve, etc did allow me to get quattro on the new one as well. Definitely a difference in "feel" between FWD/FrontTrak and quattro.<p>Feel free to e-mail me if you want to discuss off-line,<p>Rob O

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