Al

do an archive search. It's available in hardware stores as a paint solvent

I included a link...Very much worth reading.

Toluene doesn't contain substances like MMT or mehtanol or lead which can be damaging to your car and fuel lines.

I only fill my tank half full and add 1/2 gallon of toluene to the tank. (like to save weight instead of filling the tank full), but the ratios are included in the post in the link. Our tank is about 15.6 gals and 1 gal of toluene is efficient for that capacity/ratio. Some people put more, some put less.

You can definately feel a difference. You can buy it at any paint shop; Sherwin Williams etc.
1 gallon container is about $7.25 where I buy mine. I'd like to buy in bigger quantity so I can get a better deal, but don't wanna store it since it has a flash point higher than gas.

Just my $0.02 (it's only my opinion)

I'M AUDI HERE----------------->
Dave<ul><li><a href="http://www.audiworld.com/forum/m/s4/msgs/95187.phtml">http://www.audiworld.com/forum/m/s4/msgs/95187.phtml</a></li></ul>

And try not to get any on your skin either...

Hiya,

First off, the signature "Dr. Mike" is referring to a doctorate in Organic Chemistry, with that in mind, read on....

The URL provided by Kawika has several gross errors in it. To quote, a "misunderstanding of basic chemistry".

-Just because something is more dense, does not mean it contains more "power per unit volume". Water is 1 g/mL (more dense than toluene), but I doubt you would try to combust it. The nature of the chemical bonding in response to radical chain reaction with oxygen is key to hydrocarbon combustion. Toluene has a lower heat of formation (net thermodynamic energy of the bonds within a molecule) than the average saturated (non-aromatic) hydrocarbon with 7 carbons.

-Higher heating of exhaust gases is a bad thing for a turbo, if taken to an extreme.

-Higher octane does not mean more power. It means the hydrocarbon is more highly branched, and burns slower for a given isomer of a hydrocarbon. This allows timing to be advanced, or prevent pre-detonation or "knocking" which can lead to a decrease in power, when the engine computer pulls back timing to compensate. In other words, high octane gas can only serve to ensure the rated power is there.
Is there a limit? Oh yes. If the combustion process is too slow (too high octane for too low of compression or timing that isn't advanced enough) you will end up with BURNED VALVES.

-Aviation fuel is not bad for a car because of its metal content, it's because it is practically kerosene. Also "Jet" fuel or "Rocket" fuel doesn't imply more power for anything but a jet or a rocket- neither of which is an internal combustion engine!!!

-Buying something labelled "toluene" from a paint store is problematic. This URL mentions: "if you buy octane booster, you don't know what you are getting". Toluene is no different. Are you sure you are getting 99.99% toluene? Or is it mostly toluene and "petroleum distillates"? Or a product "water-ed down" with other petroleum products for public use? What is the water content? Benzene and toluene can absorb up to 2-3% by volume water, not good for a fuel line on a cold night. In an octane booster, the manufacurer will remove water knowing it is for an automobile (or even add some drying agents to boot). Toluene meant for a "paint store" may not be purified as stringently.

-For those of you tempted to do this, read the feedback carefully: "I added one gallon, and "wow"!, so then I added two gallons...."

Do you really want to experiment with your engine?

If your engine is knocking, and the timing retarded "that" much that 100 octane gas gives you 5hp back that you should've had, your car is NOT a daily driver, but a race car. Or least of all needs some major reworking of its engine management system.

Unless you really know what you are doing, buy octane booster that is meant to be octane booster, that will increase your octane by a predictable amount given in the instructions.

Your car is not a "jet", a "rocket" or for that matter a Formula 1. I seriously wouldn't play "chemistry set" with one of your biggest investments.

Cheers,

Michael

First off, no fair to compare water which doesn't even have any carbons in it. Now if you tell me that diesel which is more dense than gasoline and a has simple molecular bond doesn't contain more power per unit volume, then we'll have to start a war :P

Higher heating of exhaust gases largely from running lean mixtures. Adding more carbon to the mix provides a richer mixture and cooler combustion. Higher heating burns valves too, so to anyone adding oxidizers in their cars and changing the nominal air:fuel volume ratio too much on the lean side, this is what happens. Incomplete burning of a retarded timing and high octane fuel results in no power as the expansion of the gas continuous as the exhaust valves are opened, hence some flame shooting out the tail pipes. Ok, not good for the cats if this happens, basically raw fuel on the cats.

The toluene I just bought the other day smells pure, uugh huh huh huh, ok, I'm kidding. Let me tell you though, water, a corrosive is not good for the fuel lines, but do you think the gasoline you pump in from your trusty gas station doesn't contain any water? Think again or hang out during the monthly inspectors review of the underground tanks in a gas station. No degree here, just a mechanic in a gas station for eight years, previous to that, I grew up around one. Condensation (and seepage) always happens. On a car, good idea to drain your fuel tank once a year - I only wish they provided a drain plug on the Audi just like my Mazda :(

Lastly, we do not normally hear knocking. Why, because either we don't know what to listen for, or the little listening devices in the engine block already told the computer to compensate for it. So, if you reset the computer and disconnect the knock sensors, knocking will happen depending on driving conditions and earth conditions. Having a fuel to withstand that and combust at a reasonable rate will yield the most power, specially on long legged motors. It is too bad we have no control over distributors these days, or better yet no distributors. That was always the easiest mod to gain 10% power if you had a timing light and octane boost. My 2 cents. I think the users know as much as the people who refrain to use it, so it balances out. Just do it! :) When I blow up my engine, I'll report it here.

if you use more than 10% you will start to disolve the rubber bits in the fuel system.


However, I used to use 104 Octane Booster (when I was rallying cars, many years ago)when we couldn't get high octane gas! My rally/endurance race engines typically had a 11.5 - 12:1 compresion ratio and we had no problems with this stuff. All you have to do is read the instructions and handle with care.

For all you amature chemists, Brew On!<ul><li><a href="http://www.goldeagle.com/104plus/index.htm">http://www.goldeagle.com/104plus/index.htm</a</li></ul>

The point of running higher octane fuel is to eliminate pinging/knocking conditions. These conditions will only occur if you run higher levels of boost on you engine where the fuel will preignite before it was inteded to because of the increase in charge air temp. So, unless you are running APRs 100 octane program it's a waste of money. Actually running higher octane will decrease your performance without running higher boost as the fuel takes longer to burn

mixture once ignited and what timing has to do with it. It is not only a boost/pressure/compression ratio thing.

making the much higher compressed mixture easier to ignite, which could cause pinging on standard timing setting, so the knock sensors will tell the ECU to retard the timing a bit. But that means if the mixture is ignited late in the cycle, some of that expansion can be lost in the exhaust cycle, loosing valuable power. So, a more stubborn gasoline with roughly the same expansion rate (or force) will yield better power if the knock sensors do not tell the ECU to do anything. Partly why the APR race mode chip requires race gas.

BTW, I have heard many A4 chipped cars knock - regardless of tuner. And with adaptive ECU's, we know what would the long term performance of one used with 92 octane gas vs one used with 94 octane. heck, my '96 pings on a hot day

We raced around a 1.8 with an APR chip all day long on a 101 degree day here and never saw timing retard more than 4 degrees and that was between shifts. Stock parameters allow up to 10 degrees of retard, but you won't even get close to that.

But since the farm lobby (ethanol from corn) and the EPA (ethanol as oxygenate) are becoming bedfellows, availability of CH3OH may become more common.

Just letting everyone know up front, so you can boycott use of it if you have a choice:-).

Therefore more boost potential in small quantities. It is not an enegy content issue per se. Alcohol runs cooler and allows much more boost. It is the sum of the effects, not some blanket overriding factor.

Believe me Dr. Mike I do respect and appreciate your knowledge which I'm sure you worked hard to achieve the Doctorate status.

But I'm merely posting this because I want to provide an alternative to a fellow Audi enthusiast.

As I learn more about performance and mods, I appreciate ALL opinions that made me more informed/aware regardless of factors. I'm sure that everyone feels the same.

It's up to every individual who wants to do whatever to their cars.

I chose to try this and would not blame anyone but myself if something happened.

BUT, since I've used Toluene, here's some of the results:

According to my butt dyno,
Faster car
More boost
No more pinging (no more timing retardation)
Crisper throttle response
Did I mention faster car?

If it's already in the gas we buy, why is it bad for our car?

Why do they sell gas if the mixture already contains a percentage of pure toluene?

Wouldn't our fuel lines already be corroded or affected at this point with regular gas?

Again......these are our OPINIONS.

I'M AUDI HERE------------------>
David

matters worse, they switch from winter to summer gas. Oh well, good for the environment, except the fish.

Hiya,

No flames intended. Sometimes when I get on the old pedestal, I start to sound like I do to my students, which is why I rarely talk shop to my friends and family.

Having survived and enjoyed my Honda racing days, I always err on the side of conservative, if you notice most of my posts here warn against getting excited over a new mod or inflated performance numbers and experimenting with an expensive motor.
To me the Audi is more about balance than anything and the "mad amatuer chemist" experimenting with quatities of a fuel additive sold as a paint solvent troubled me.

I respectfully prefer not to listen to "butt-dyno" feedback over fuel additives. If an additive makes that much difference over 93-94 octane pump fuel, the car owner, IMHO, should really take a look at their ECU programming, or the boost they run street vs. track. I highly doubt any of the 150hp-240hp cars here would benefit from 100+ octane gasoline. Possibly cars running high boost and aggressive timing profiles would benefit, but those would have to be done on a careful case-by-case basis (VAG tool and dyno (or 1/4 ETs) would be great).

I am going to purchase some toluene from the hardware store this weekend, and run it through a quick GC/MS analysis, as well as an NMR. I will post my results here. Since you can't be guaranteed the original aromatic content of gasoline from the station, there is no way of knowing how much of a pure aromatic substance to add.

The "feedback" posts where the individual is adding gallon after gallon of toluene in successive fuel stops really troubles me, and the labelling of this additive as "rocket-fuel". It is that "a little is good, alot must be alot better" atitude that leads to hurt motors.

My post was meant to reduce this kind of "excitement" and give those who wish to experiment with this technique something to think about. With any modification, the pros AND cons must be presented.

Once again, I am merely suggesting to excercise caution in this matter.

In friendship,

Michael

Hiya,

As to your first point, of course, water has no carbons. I was merely pointing out the misconception of higher density equating more power. That simply isn't so. Want a carbon containing example? Ethylene glycol is more dense than the gasoline mixture or toluene, but would make a poor fuel. More importantly, you are not burning LIQUID gasoline or toluene, but the vaporized gas phase (at any given condition the type and size of the consituent particles of a gas are not of consequence to volume/pressure/or temperature, only the number of gas particles.

Adding more carbon gives a richer mixture and cooler combustion? Not really. If that were the case acetylene (highest ratio of carbon to hydrogen than any other "hydrocarbon" and its derivatives would make nice additives.

I did not state that pump gas has no water content. However, I see 1000s of cars a day run on pump gas, and can be assured (somewhat) that my gasoline is gasoline if purchased from a known source. The toluene the URL suggest using is purchased as a "paint remover". Now isn't it probable that it is made to a lower standard of purity (to save costs among other factors) when the most it could ruin is a paintbrush rather than an automobile engine?

You can hear pinging on the 1.8T, if it is severe enough, or any motor, and if your ears aren't attuned to what this sounds like, you shouldn't be playing with timing vs. octane experiments with your car (VAG is a better way for sure). The ECU can only retard timing within a certain window before it bottoms out. There is a limit to octane/timing advance. My 96 GS-R would not be able to gain any more power beyond 18 degrees BTDC, no matter what the octane.

As I said to Kawika, if you know what you are doing, and are running a "long-legged" motor, as you call it, octane boost can be a benefit. I highly doubt the average weekend tuner with a 150-240hp 1.8T would benefit from 100+ octane fuel.

My strong opinions here are not to flame anyone. But the cons of this additive must be posted here along with the pros for people who come here for advice to make an informed decision. But terms like "rocket-fuel" really trouble me, and you cannot guarantee that anyone trying this idea will get the same purity or quality of toluene that you may have had success with.

Best regards,

Michael

If you use 10% ethanol, then you only lose 1-1.5% MPG.

As an engineer and 30 year pilot, military and civilian, my understanding it that Jet A and similar turbine fuels are very similar to kerosine but Avgas is essentially the same as gasoline except that it is required to have the same formulation from place to place and season to season, unlike auto gas which changes composition. It also has limits on vapor pressure so that it doesn't have boiling problems at high altitude, although this can be a problem on some high performance aircraft if they climb too fast. Military jets use JP-4 which is descrbed as a wide cut gasoline, whatever that is, that was specifically designed to have a low vapor pressure so that the fuel tank vents could handle the vapor coming off during an AB climb. I don't think that JP-4 would be appropriate for automotive fuel since it was designed for turbines which have no octane requirements, and it would be very difficult to get anyway.

I used 100 octane LL avgas on my 11:1 comp ratio TR-8 for years with no ill effects and it sure did the job illiminating knock.

Jet-A, and supposedly JP-4, are clean (low wax) kerosene/home heating oil. Avgas is gasoline with metal additives for knock resistance (different additive package). The metal additives are fine for planes, which do not have cats, and old/race cars. However, even the LL (low lead) avgas is very high in metals and not good for our cars.

Doc was trying to help the gomers out.

I didn't take any offense to your post nor was I trying to come across offensive either.

Again, I respect your knowledge and would be interested in your findings.

Anyways, I use Toluene (with conservative amounts)on Weekend occations for spirited driving racing bad guys....

When I get my GT25 kit, I will probably not have the need to utilize Toluene anymore. My little K03 needs all the help it can get!

Peace.......Pieces

I'M AUDI HERE---------------->
Dave