I wanted to post this with my original questions answered by MC about the K04 but was unable to do so (out of town for the past few days).
Someone mentioned the costs of the K04 were more than the APR Stage 3 kit. Here's a breakdown (only comparing costs from which I attained from vendor web sites).
APR Stage 3
$4,995 Includes turbo, manifold, hi-flow cat, hoses, injectors and of course hardware/software.
PES KO4 w/extras
$2,195 Includes turbo, injectors, hardware/software
$1,599 FMIC (turbo5)
$ 840 hi-flow cat (turbo5)
$ 269 intake (turbo5)
$ 199 adjustable FPR (turbo5)
-I left out the exhaust/downpipe because they can be used for each and $ amount depends on what exhaust is used.
-This is just what I've put together with the knowledge that I'm not comparing apples to apples. It is done more for $ comparison.
-The K04 kit can be "pieced together" while the APR kit is a complete kit (AFAIK you can't buy pieces sepperately).
-The hp/torque figures are not provided.
-There may be more options/kits available in the future from a couple of other tuners.
It would be nice to see a complete test session (dyno, 1/4 mile, drivability, objective, etc) with a couple of different setups and compare.
11-06-2000, 09:55 AM
Why would you compare a stage 3 with NO IC to a Ko4 kit WITH an IC?
Lets compare "kits"
Complete Ko4 kit = $1649 230hp (tested 238)
Complete Stage3 = $4995 280hp (claimed)
Difference = $3346
Stage 3+ $6999(clutch needed at $1400 extra plus install)
Ko4 with IC = $3244 (stock clutch is fine, drag racers would want to upgrade down the road).
You added in an Intake kit and a Cat down pipe. Both APR's kits use the stock box so for price comparison you should not add an intake. The Ko4 kit does include a 5bar FPR and does NOT need the adjustable unit. The adjustable unit is only for die hard tuners that want to fine tune fuel trim.
The Cat and down pipe is not needed but is offered as an upgrade. APR must provide one as ther turbo flange and mounting is different. I did not add one to either Ko4 setup as its not mandatory that you run it.
I am not flaming for either kit. I am purely correcting price points that where posted above.
I have stated before that we should not even compare these kits. I felt that I should post real world cost's for each setup. You decide which one you want based on your goals and your wallet.
11-06-2000, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the response. You're correct, I wasn't comparing straight kit to straight kit but I wasn't trying to. I was trying to compare the costs of a possible 250hp K04 setup to the cost of an APR StageIII kit.
After your posts to my questions from last week(BTW, thanks), I started outlining some costs. I wanted to see a cost/time/option layout for getting 250hp/280lb/ft from a K04.
You mentioned, "Cat/downpipe/intake/exhaust/adjustable FPR/ported manifold = 251hp-283ftbls." When HJB mentioned in that earlier thread that a 250HP K04 might be the same price as a APR Stage III, I just put together a post with the costs.
For now I'm tossing some ideas/options around which may become moot when I actually purchase (with other kits/options coming). I know the old saying "How fast you want to go is equal to how much you want to spend". I just want to know as much as I can before spending.
You're right, these kits shouldn't be compared "kit" vs "kit". For now, I am weighing options to what I currently have which is nothing more than stock+chip+exhaust.
BTW, thanks for all the information you have provided. Your K04 setup sounds strong and proven and has been motivation for me in looking at options for my car (hence the questions and posts).
11-06-2000, 12:16 PM
11-06-2000, 12:31 PM
11-06-2000, 01:56 PM
I can only guess that if you don't run the FMIC, that the gains will diminish with heat soak.
11-06-2000, 04:55 PM
Both kits have there advantages. It comes down to what you want out of the car and your wallet.
11-06-2000, 05:00 PM
The IC is the single largest power adder after a Ko4 kit. Not only do you gain peak power but you KEEP that power longer.
Remember that my 251hp Dyno pass was with a chip that makes 15 PEAK psi. only 13 past the midrange. Its a great setup. Take the AWE ko4 kit for example. That is sold with 30b software. You would get 17-19psi in the midrange and not as much boost fade up top.
I made that 251/283 with a low boost chip. Less boost that a chipped Ko3 car. With more boost I would estimate 300ft lbs at 260 hp. This would be the limit of the Turbo and its run very hard.
you can see the effects of my IC and the rest of my mods when I make that much power on only 15 lbs..
11-06-2000, 05:27 PM
Two totally different setups...
K-04 gives only a little more Go between 5500-6500 rpm mark.
Down botton is similar to a stock k-03 turbo.
The GT25 setup, is heaps more torque in the 3000-5000 mark, Buckets more, drive them both...
The APR kit, still have a upgrade bath... Bigger turbo, more HP, and may leed you into to 350HP+ bracket.
The K-04, has had problems, 240HP seems to be the maximum limit, any more time will tell how long it lasts.
The K-04 is a small turbo and to produce 240HP is really maxed out, a little more may be gained, but you are pushing it far and beyond its limits.
I have had 2 K-04's (both Failed) now have a Garret GT25 setup, never looked back.
Even the best perfomance of my ex-K-04 is not a shade on the GT25 setup.
Decide carefully where you want to go with your car...
11-06-2000, 07:12 PM
Both are differnt Kits, depends on what you are looking for.. 5000, might be too high a price for some people. And a 1500 Ko4 kit might be what they are looking for.
Acording Someone i have spoken to, a Ko4 with a Garret chip, topped out at 225 hp.
They did not say what software they where using, or what the certain problem was.
They where using a dyno.
11-06-2000, 08:38 PM
11-06-2000, 10:37 PM
11-07-2000, 02:20 AM
...laying out cost for my own interest.
First, thanks for your input on your experience with the K04 and GT25.
What I was attempting to do is try to figure what the costs are for 2 options that are more powerful than what I currently have.
I have a stock 1.8T with APR chip and Borla exhaust. I am trying to figure out if I spent $X amount of dollars I would get Y setup vs. if I spent +/-$X I would get Z setup. $3-5,000 is a lot of money and I just want to get as much info as I can.
My plan is to hopefully drive both setups before I decide. Also, the thoughts from readers of this forum helps as well.
11-07-2000, 05:31 AM
11-07-2000, 11:57 AM
progression of performance upgrades DOES have a light at the end of the tunnel... get the KO4. On the other hand if you can't see the light, get the GT25. The money spent on a KO4 in this case is an expensive waste. The KO4 is a performance dead end, it's tapped, and in the words of a friend "it's become boring waiting to go faster". The GT25 has far more tuning left in it then is presently being sold in kit form. The kits are still far from being max'd. If you are heading for this arena, then the GT25, and other large efficient turbos are the only monetary value out there.
11-07-2000, 12:30 PM
11-07-2000, 04:11 PM
now has a GT25, (APR stage III) that recommends the GT25 set up.
You really need to drive both cars to appreciate the difference.
11-07-2000, 06:42 PM
the K04 seems fine so far. I've had no problems with it. Stock the K04 puts out 225HP on my TT and I'm around 255 with a chip and stock exhaust. Once the warranty expires or close to it I'll upgrade to a larger turbo but meanwhile this will have to do. I'll have to hit you up for some tips when the time comes.
11-08-2000, 04:09 AM
I also switched from a K04 kit from a german tuner to APR's stage III.