I'm going to step on a few toes here, but this is very close to my heart.

I became a car salesperson because I hated the miss-information and bull**** that came with most every time I helped a friend choose a car.

What I have discovered is that the customer expects a game and often won't believe me even if I give them all the information available to me. If I make it easy, they are suspicious ( rightly, except I've usually put all the cards on the table already ). If given a chance, I will be fair and actually fight the manager who wants to make a bigger profit.

The number of conns customers attempt to pull, FAR outnumber the ones the salespeople will pull at a reputable dealer. There are some doozies - I won't go putting ideas into anyones head ;-)

As for profits. How many of you would consider a return of less than $500 ( think flooring and overhead too ) on a $27,000 over 5 months a fair deal ? ( Yes, there may or may not be service involved ). Consider a good salesperson sells between 12 and 20 cars a month. They get 25% of the $500. MAYBE a few hundred dollars a week in a bonus program. Think never having weekends or holidays off. Never having "normal" friends because you are always working when they have time. Think working until 9 or 10 pm frequently. Think endless test drives with people who need to sample every permutation of a car. Think no lunch or dinner breaks ( we grab food on the run ). We are there when you come in on your break. Think keeping ahead of every program and model so we can answer questions. HOW MUCH WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THIS JOB ????? Betcha more than I make.

I do this job because I love Audi and the happy customers. I really do get all warm and fuzzy and when I can help somebody and make them happy.

Don't attack the salespeople. Only the tough ones can put up with all the b****t that comes from customers and management. Go after AoA and the dealerships to kill the 100% commission system. Bonus - YES ! Commission - NO !

April
I'll get off the soapbox now

At least in the beginning. I will generally guage a salesperson's honesty and knowledge of product by asking some questions I know the answer to. Some as simple as how much horsepower does the car have, or is xyz standard equipment (something that hasn't changed recently...no trick questions), then work up to things like how many channels does the ABS system have, or begin discussing driving techniques, or racing. This is where a salesperson earns my trust or loses the sale. The salesman I bought my car from was excellent. Honest, knowledgeable, and straightforward. I had spoken with him when shopping for my previous car, but Audi was out of my price range then. The fact that four years later he was still working for the same dealership speaks well of him and the dealership. Because of the trust he has established, I will be buying cars from him in the future as well. The good salespeople are out there, but so are the dirt bags. If you want to hear horror stories of salespeople taking advantage of customers, I've got a few. Keep fighting the good fight, there are those of us who really appreciate the effort good salespeople put forth.

Regards,
Rodney

'99 A4 1.8tqms

On the one hand it would make life a lot simpler. On the other, I feel like those paying full MSRP are subsidizing the lower prices that I negotiate. Also, what happens to a car when the new model comes out and it's still on the lot? Mark down? How much. Not saying it's a bad idea...MANY benefits...but I don't particularly mind the current system.

Regards,
Rodney

'99 A4 1.8tqms

April,
This is a thoughtful post and I do commend you on your desire to provide informative no-BS salesmanship to your customers.

However, let me state the following -- An educated buyer will always go into a dealership prepared to negotiate and use invoice and rebate data, competitive bids, market information, anecdotal information, and whatever else may help us achieve the absolute lowest price for the car. On the flip side, it is your job to secure the greatest possible profit to your dealership (which, in turn provides the maximum amount of commission to you). So, with two diametrically opposing objectives, why would anyone assume anything but friction and conflict?

I have helped several of my friends/family members negotiate car purchases and can state from experience that there is a huge range in the quality of new car salespeople - including "Subterranean cesspool scum." Many have outright lied or misrepresented the product - that behaviour deserves bashing. Of course, consumers have their share of scum - but ask anyone in a retail or service industry and they'll tell you that that is part of doing business. Companies like Nordstrom's were pioneers in the view that even pond-scum have money to spend.

As for the issue of being able to 'survive' on a $500 markup - i hear you, but as long as dealers continue to let cars off the lot for that profit margin, we will go after that brass ring... I understand that that does not provide a lot of incentive to the salesperson - I feel for you but that is not my (the consumer's) problem.

Sorry for the rambling.

Let's see how Mercedes does with one price policies

If the dealer will let it go for $500 of margin, then close the deal and move on. The time you spend bickering over an additional $500 you could be working on another customer. I am certain an "easy mark" who will pay MSRP is going to walk through the door, so be available when they do.

People hate price negotiation, therefore there will always be people that will pay MSRP.

-Dave

I would prefer to make a consistant profit via fixed pricing. A lower markup is realistic then. More like buying something at Nordstroms. Sale ? Sure - but everyone can get the break, not just the savy few. Like Nordstroms though, you PAY for the service.

There are people I like, who are just too cheap or want to play games. I end up brushing them off as a waste of time. 10% of the people take 90% of your time with many test drives spread over months, and you usually have to fight for fianancing, they are unhappy with what is a good deal, and give you crappy customer satisfaction scores.

This is a high end retail business. Let's run it that way !

April

even though there are a large number of "nightmare" customers in any business, the bottom line is that regardless of the consumer good being purchaed, it is human nature to be distrustful & try to get that "Sprint" deal, i.e. the most for the least. I don't know of many consumers, of any product, that have a good grasp on the concept that other people need to make a living. Truthfully, I think most people would rather have their after tax dollars in their own pockets before they opt, or even care about how much of their money makes it into your pocket.

You don't like working evenings & weekends, neither do I. However, I own my own business & therefore the more time & effort I put in the more rewards I reap. If I had a job that I felt cheated me out of my life, I would start looking for another job. Due to the fact that the salesperson is the ONLY liason between a customer & the business, it is only natural for the customers to assume that you're working towards the best interests of the business i.e. maximizing profit margins. Personally, I am a believer in letting people make a FAIR margin when I make a purchase. I don't feel that I can demand high levels of service if I have squeezed all of the profit out of a deal. I want my salesperson to return my calls promptly, be honest when giving me an answer, schedule my service appointments & basically take care of me & my needs. Don't tell me that you will do something & then not only not do it, but, avoid my calls & play the rest of those games that we've all experienced. In return for the great service, I will make a commitment to send alot of business your way through referrals. (as an aside point, since ordering my S4, I have sent two A4 purchases, 1 Golf purchase & 1 996 C4S purchase my dealer's way). While I am a demanding/high maintenance client, I am one of the few who are loyal & will send revenue's your way. The whole automobile purchasing experience can be extremely harrowing for the consumer. It is your Job to deal with this. Unless you are working under duress, nobody wants to hear "don't blame me, blame the guy that owns the dealership", it is that mentality that makes people not want to deal with you.

If you are a great salesperson, why wouldn't you want 100% commission? My experience before starting my own business, (always in sales (computers, cars etc.), was that I could always far exceed company pay packages by opting for 100% commission or a draw against.
I don't think that there are many people who would "attack" their salespeople for errors made by the dealership or AoA, maybe just frustration. If you find that you're customers & management are giving you alot of bull**** or attacks, maybe you need to focus your energies on finding a new career because obviously if on one hand you "became a car salesperson because I hated the miss-information and bull**** that came with most every time I helped a friend choose a car" and on the other hand don't like eating lunch on the run, taking customers on "endless test-drives", being their on your breaks, having to know all of the specs on the products that you sell and any of the other gripes that you have about your job, you really make it sound like you need to take an aptitude test & figure out what exactly it is that you'd like to do for a living because you seem to dislike all of the things that are "MUST-HAVES" for salespeople.

In closing, good luck & as I'm sure you're figuring out, you've come to the wrong place for sympathy.

Wal-Mart and Target do OK too, they concentrate on pricing and don't always bother with great service. But cmon, what does a salesperson really have to do to make the sale? Right now they just carry offers back and forth, like a waiter. It's naive to expect great product knowledge; that's the customer's job.

I want to walk in like I would a Circuit City or a Gap, see what I want, maybe get a little help if I need it, and buy it. People have a lot of retail experience these days, and car sales is stuck in the Dark Ages. Of course, since the dealer usually wins, there's little incentive to change. If only Saturn made good cars ....

You've got it wrong.

I've worked in high end retail most of my life. I know what good and consistant service can do for a business.

I don't want sympathy, I want a new and better way to sell cars. CARS - not an incentive or interest rate. I am a fanatical beleiver in Audi.

A few dollars saved or spent, won't change the world, but being civilized will.

April

...I have been in sales and in retail (but not car sales), I know all about how customers and management can be. Although there are a lot of scary car sales people, I have found that many of them are just doing the best they can, and that it's not really the sales person that you are dealing with.

I would get very frustrated selling cars. People sho just want to joy ride. Manufacturers who can't give you information. People who come by 5 minutes before you close and want to deal, making you stay 1-2 hours over (as if you don't have a family waiting at home or anything!). People who work to get the lowest price, and then they want you to throw in free things. I could go on.

In general, I am not one to handle dealing with the public anymore. After all the crap some people try to pull, the stupidity of others, and the downright rudeness of even more, it's hard to handle. And then, on top of that, you have management shoving the "the customer is always right, smile, and invite the customer back, etc" crap down your throat.

Believe me April. I think you have a very difficult job. I would probably strangle someone if I did what you do!

Charles

nm

If "conventional" auto dealers are going to survive the E-commerce era, they are going to have to do it on the basis of service (and even then they may have difficulty, see my post in the A6 forum). If that means nursing a high-maintenance potential buyer along for months (including many test drives) with a smile, good attitude, and honest, ready information, so be it. If many--if not most--of these clients then decide not to buy the car (for whatever reasons), that's show biz.

While I want a good, fair deal on an automobile, I am too busy to spend a large amount of time trying to negotiate that last $100. off-the-table or shlepping 50+ miles away to save $500. on a $30K purchase. On the other hand, I expect honesty and customer service from a dealership. Play games with me and I will walk, and if it means buying a car of a different marque, so be it.

I wonder what percentage of people feel the way I do? ;-)

Mitch
'99.5 A6Q

nt

KLHI
klhi@ibm.net
99.0 2.8QM Melange/Onyx Cloth

Here's my take:

1. Reputation and "Mythology": People have an image of the "polyester-wearing, cigar-chewing" shyster out to cheat them that has existed since at least the '50s. Even if this person is becoming a bit of a rare bird, there hasn't been sufficient PR to dispel the image, so people are fearful before they even walk into the dealer. This also explains in part the success of Saturn and Lexus:they have spent the money to try and dispel the shyster image (even if some of their salesfolks are still shysters ;-)

2. Fear of negotiating: people feel caught between a rock and a hard place. Many (perhaps most, although studies differ on this) don't want to haggle yet they feel stupid if they pay MSRP. Ironically, people essentially haggle all the time about real estate purchases, but they have an agent to take care of most of the "dirty work" for them.

3. The Information Gap: We of the computer-friendly generation have immediate access to all sorts of information about invoice prices, holdbacks, car sales trends, subsidized leases, dealer incentives, etc. etc. However, many people go into an expensive car purchasing situation not having this sort of info available, but believing that the dealer does, creating more fear and tension. As time progresses and information becomes even more accessible, this factor should diminish.

Mitch
'99.5 A6Q

Walmart and Target are not, nor for that matter is Circuit City. I can't stand shopping at Walmart and Target because of the mob atmosphere (hence I don't). As for Circuit City, I just use them for the basics (cd's, DVD's, maybe telephones (not cell)), anything else, I go to someone who can answer my questions, and generally pay a bit more, though Circuit City doesn't stock a lot of the electronic goodies I prefer.

As for consumers being more knowledgeable and experienced, that's the exception not the rule, at least in the auto market. Ask around your office, see how many people know what engines are in what cars, or what cars are good in a given price range, or how to find invoice pricing. Most car buyers know very little when they go in to make the purchase. I think that's a big part of the reason they fear/hate salespeople. JMHO

Regards,
Rodney

'99 A4 1.8tqms

1) Stereotype
2) Some high end dealers are still as 'slick'. I have personally encountered some.

And I guess that this is part of the reason why internet car sales is picking up.

I sold cars for a number of years and these posts really just show that people don't come close to understanding how the modern new car dealership works. Car salesman in the 70's 80's even the early 90's made good livings, but that has definitely changed due to several factors.
April's figures on the new car profits are pretty much correct, why then do dealers sell new cars? TO SELL USED CARS! The profit on a used car it stunning compared to a new car. The new car dealer has first whack at your trade and can sell it to a wholesaler at a nifty instant profit or can resell it on his lot for an even better profit! It is a proven fact that people will pay more for a late model used car from a new car dealer than they would from a used car lot. The salesperson also makes far, far more money on selling a used car (but not if it goes to a wholesaler) than selling a new car. This has created an incredibly stupid paradox at the car dealership. If I walk out on the lot and see a well to do person looking at a new Suburban for 38,000 or a young family looking at a used escort for 3,000, as a salesperson, the guy at the suburban isn't getting the time of day. When times are busy I have seen salespeople blow off new car customers, leave them in waiting rooms or basically steer them out in order to service used car customers. The other factor is "invoice pricing". Does anyone really know what a dozen eggs cost a supermarket or a pair of shoes a shoestore? Of course not, that is confidential business information and it is copyrighted. The auto manufacturers could do the same but they don't. They LOVE the present system, they make 25-50% profit on a vehicle, they get a dealer network for much less cost than they could run it for themselves and they have a "buffer layer" between them and the customer.
What all this means is that most customers actually say the wrong things in their attempts to impress the salesperson. "I will pay $500.00 over, I am paying cash and I don't have a trade" is not going to get the salesperson excited! What you do need to understand is that when that happens and you think the salesperson doesn't give a damn about you, he may not! He may be getting as little as $75.00 or a $100.00 on your $30,000 Audi.
Over the years I have discovered one other point. Often the person who yells the loudest about the "great deal" he got, took the worst bath. The people who complain about how they got ripped off generally didn't!
And that is why I now fix computers!

take for example my last car buying experience, which I would say was a good one despite this.

I want a Honda CR-V EX 4 wheel drive. The Honda place has one, loaded, color I want, just came in, not even out on the lot yet, perfect coincidence.

I go in, take a test drive, and tell my nice salesman (and he is nice, no joke) that I want to get down to business and make a deal. I came armed with exact invoice numbers, Kelley value on my trade (which I didn't expect to get). So I tell him, I think "X" amount of "difference" was a fair deal, and that he can stick me a little bit on the trade side of the deal OR the new vehicle price side, BUT NOT BOTH!!!!! That's when people get mad! When you try to offer wholesale trade value on a damn fine, low mileage trade, and then hardly budge off MSRP to boot.

So we are $1,200 apart on what I think is a fair "difference" price, so I said, sorry, that's not good enough. Thanks for your time. All very politely, I might add. As I'm leaving, I say one more time, "are you sure this is the best you can do?" And he says yes. I know the CR-V is hot selling little vehicle so they are commanding a good situation for dealers. But this deal was atrocious, so I was going to try another dealer an hour away.

Next day, salesguy calls me up and says "well, we can do $1,000 better on the CR-V deal." One grand in one day! Explanation was that the Honda manager wasn't in the day before, so he didn't feel he could offer me anything better than he did. But after crunching the numbers with the manager, they could come ONE GRAND my way in one day.

I bought the CR-V. Got a good deal, and the dealership made a reasonable profit. The point of all this rambling is that because I was informed, patient, and not an idiot willing to take their ridiculous first offer, I saved $1,000 bucks. But many who go in to buy cars are uninformed, in a hurry and therefore stressed out because they probably know deep down they will get ripped off.

BDW
'99 1.8Tqms

April,

Why do you work in this business? No friends, no vacation, no money - sounds like a totally losing proposition to me! Run like hell, while you still can!

On the other hand, if you like helping people and this is all the satisfaction you get, then surely you can cope with a couple of idiots who try to make your life miserable - if this affects you too much, I think you have the wrong personality for this job, in which I think PR is paramount.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't know you and don't want to insult you, but I just don't understand. Either you're making truckloads of money and then maybe you put up with everything, or not, in which case you can find a better job in a matter of days. This surely sounds like whining and defensive justification to me.

Also understand that I personally hold no grudge against car salesmen, in fact a friend of mine sold me my Audi. I just don't get your attitude.

Sorry for the long rant and again I apologize if I insulted you in any way (it was never my intention).

adc

you can't copyright an invoice price of anything. Copyright is ownership protection for works of writing and/or music. For full protection, you file your work with U.S. Copyright Office in Washington D.C. It would not be that hard to find out what a grocery store pays for a dozen eggs. It's just that people don't care about smaller ticket items like that, compared to a car. (By the way, the markup on a dozen eggs used to be about 60 percent. I worked in a grocery store in high school).

I totally agree about the used car stuff, though. I know that's where they make their money.

BDW

Lets assume there is no used car, no financing, no service department, just a building with a salesperson and a secretary to do the paperwork, what would be a "fair profit" on a 30,000 A4?

In return I will give you a shopping around tip- usually the salesperson knows in the first five minutes that you are going shopping around to other dealerships so rather than give you the real price he gives you a ridiculous price, you waste your time going to five other dealerships being a good "doobie" comparison shopper. The other dealers can't touch the price so you come back and all of a sudden the car was sold or the manager says we need to hold more money etc. etc. Now logic would tell you that most people would take a hike at that point right? The truth is most people don't! They are so sick of shopping around and dealing with car salespeople that the give in and buy. Now I know you wouldn't do that!

Yeah,
Very common. Called a low=ball.

Understand why there are so many bad salespeople out there. Few have the customer orientation big ticket items usually carry. The biggest ego on either side of the table wins now.

Help change the system by supporting a civilized transaction, and the reputation will die. Your actions will help.

Yes

I like helping people, not fighting with them.