I am considering ordering a new A4 and am a bit torn over which way to go... the dealers around here don't have any FWD cars to drive before I order, and I am interested in hearing from you owners out there!

I had a bad experience with a 1992 BMW 318i (unreliable PIECE OF $#IT!) and currently have a 1988 Legend for road trips/winter and a Miata I bought new last year for fun. The Mazda will be paid off in April and I will probably take on another payment for a new sports sedan. Just lately have I been turned on to the A4, finding Japanese offerings boring. Looking at invoice prices and seeing people are typically paying $1300-$2000 over invoice, my final price on an A4 could be from the low $20s for a FWD 1.8T to low $30s for a 2.8 Quattro. That is QUITE a spread!

What I'm looking for is great acceleration, roadholding, and steering feel. (Obviously, styling, comfort, etc the A4 has in spades!) I live in southwest PA... we have a few bad snow days every year, other than that the roads are pretty clean. Whatever car I'll get, I'll order the sport package (most likely) and trip computer, that's it. Here is what makes the decision difficult... continually upping the ante!

Starting with the 1.8T FWD: with destination, sport and trip computer, invoice is $22,560, making my final cost about $24,000, a bargain for such a car! So, why not just add the Quattro for $1650 more? Or rather than get snow tires for the FWD car, take off the sport package, get the quattro with all-season tires for about $1,000 more net, or $25,000? With the savings of snow tires deleted as well, it makes quattro true cost under $1,000. But, the quattro will add weight, so real-world acceleration will suffer compared to FWD. Maybe not as sporting.to drive. Anyway, figure $25650 with quattro if I get it all, $25,000 without the sport package.

However, I REALLY like the big V6 in my Legend! A 2.8 FWD A4 with sport package and trip computer invoices for $26,300, making my final cost $27,800... $2200 more than the 1.8T with quattro. This is the lightest combination, with the most power... and apparently the torque steer (to hear Audi tell it) is under control. Possibly the most fun to drive? With FWD, traction control, and snow tires, should do just fine in the winter. And I get a smooth, strong six. But the price is getting up there now, and experience has shown me that cars with 4cyl typically handle more crisply than the 6cyl versions because there is less weight over the front wheels. I felt this succinctly comparing the 318i to the 325i. And of course, now I am looking at essentially about $4,000 for stronger acceleration. Worth it?

What would be ideal is to see the 180hp TT engine in the A4. Any chance of that for MY2000?

Has anyone else been through this? All of these cars are great possiblities... don't know if I want a light, sprightly four-cylinder car, a stable AWD 4cyl, or for a bit more, a hot-rod six. Does anyone out there have the FWD versions and can tell me how they handle with or without the sport suspension?

Looking forward to your emails and posts! Also, after my BMW nightmare, reliability reports!

Thank you all!

nt

You should get a 1.8T Quattro with Sports Package and "chip it to 193hp" after you break it in.

Know this: your power concerns for the 1.8T go away with a chip. You get at least as much power as the 2.8 if not more, and the chip is only $500 (some are less).

The 2.8 FWD sport pkg is great for me, but maybe not for you. There is NO torque steer. I just liked the feel of the 2.8 better, inside and out. It was kinda visceral, y'know?

I doubt you should take anyone's word for it, tho', you really should drive one to make sure it's right for you. You'll get a wealth of opinions here, and you'll probably be more confused after the barrage of posts that show up...dunno...I drove several variations on the lot: I'm no Mario Andretti, so the difference between the 2.8FWDsport and the 2.8Qsport handling was not noticeable TO ME in 'spirited' driving. Maybe it would be to you.


good luck,
steve

nt

With a cheap computer chip the 4cyl becomes faster and more fun to drive than the V6. The V6 has optional leather and drives smoother, but the 4cyl is the hot rod of the two if you get a 5spd. The V6 is the more luxurious car, with power seats and wood trim. Nonetheless, both engines can be tuned to 280+hp for about $5K.

Quattro kills stoplight racing ability, but makes the car faster and safer everywhere else. It doesn't feel as fast though. I live in TX and own 2 quattros, I would never own anything else. My only evidence of the safety of quattro is that I have managed to avoid lots of bad drivers, except for one time when I was stopped at a light and the only place to go was into oncomming traffic. I elected to stay put.

The trip computer is now standard, get the sport wheel if you don't get the whole package.

Todd W

If you get an A4 and you live in snow country, I would strongly rec. quattro. In the real world, quattro is a real blessing, and the increased weight doesn't affect performance very much. And the resale values for quattro are considerably higher, essentially making it a no cost option.

If you get the 1.8, I would definitely plan on a chip and just budget an extra $500 for it. You also need another set of tires if you go with the sport pkg--the stock tires are bad in snow.

If I didn't get quattro and wanted the V6, I would pass on the A4 and get a Passat. I went through the same thought process as you, and I have been very happy with the chipped 1.8. I too was used to a smooth V6 Camry.

1.8 qms Melange AutoThority

Most people don't need quattro. Most people don't need airbags. But man, when you need them - YOU NEED THEM!!!. A spirited driver can use quattro more often. A cautious driver can get around just fine in the snow with FWD. An alert driver will find quattro a comfort several times a year in traffic. If you go to the track, or ice driving school, and learn how to drive a quattro you will never go back.

Quattro was never banned from rallying, only TransAm, Nascar, BTCC, etc. - only on pavement!

Todd W

As you live in PA where it does snow and rain you would be stupid to not get the Quattro PLUS the Quattro improves handling in dry weather as well. FACT - The $1650 cost of Quattro is easily made back on resale. That old saying of pennywise and pound foolish applies here. The only people that ever told me they preferred a Bimmer over an Audi were people that bought the FWD - and then complained to me about wheel spin.

I understand your concern about the need for speed offset by cost so get the 1.8t which has tons of mods. A $160 Neuspeed chip will add about 50hp & 60 lbs torque. Just do your homework and look at all the tuner mods for the 1.8t. If you suddenly find some money then you you can tune a 1.8tup to 300hp. Check out this months (September 99) MAX SPEED magazine which has a section devoted to 1.8t tuning.

One last comment, get the optional sport package. It is MSRP $660 and is a bargain.

Mitch 99.5 1.8tqms

And is the clutch/drivetrain in the 1.8 able to handle the extra power and torque?

i think the answers to all your questions are yes.

the real questions are "do you tell your dealership about the chip"

"how much does it affect engine longevity/durability/reliability"

these questions can be answered by 1.8T owners here.

steve

... and I ended up deciding on the 1.8T. I really wanted a V-6, after having one in my Maxima (which is quite a great engine). I drove a 2.8 and really liked the engine and power, but realized that $35k was too much for me.

However much after forgetting about the A4 I drove a 1.8T. It was quite a smooth engine! Nothing like japanese fours. After doing much research I found out how much people were tuning these cars - and that a v-6 beating 200hp was easily attained. After some time, I really
started to like the 1.8T...

Now I am set to order a A4 1.8T, and will hop it up sometime later with a chip/exhaust, or some type of upgrade. Great value for the money!!

Mark Collett

But seriously,

My point is just that Quattro is different from the FWD in several respects:
- it is heavier, but most of the weight is way down low, which probably lowers the center of gravity which in turn likely improves stability
- because it is heavier, the gearing is shorter so essentially 0-60 times in the dry are the same. In the wet, Quattro is much faster. Past 60mph, FWD may be faster.
- maybe the most important advantage of the Quattro is that it comes with an independent rear suspension (as opposed to the FWD which has some sort of beam). This probably makes for most of the handling advantage of the Quattro (but not all).
- Quattro definitely enables much faster corner exit speeds, in any kind of weather. Just like magic.
- Quattro is more expensive to maintain. You need 4 wheel alignments, parts are very expensive etc.

As to what engine to choose - I personally went for the light & tunable & cheap 4cyl, but I can understand why you would want the V6.

Hope this helps,
adc
Red 1.8T QMS chipped

Hi, i'm richard and i'm a Audi car salesman in holland. I would give you the advice to go for the quattro and by the v6, if you got some money left buy the tiptronic transmission as well. The v6 is much smother in acceleration and has a better power range. The tiptronic transmission is suberp. Here in holland you can order the TT 1.8 Turbo engine for A4 And A3 as well.

Greeting

Richard Kunne

nt

... but solid snow for as much as 4-5 mos/year (Swiss Alps that is). Our 1986 A100 2.3 FWD was retired with 200k miles last summer, and the only time it got stuck in snow was due to my stupidity. So much for the NEED of quattro.

The point that the Quattro increases the resale value in the US is due to the hype around Quattro, but it's a fact, so if you are planning on reselling the car, definitely get it. My 30v has it, because it's virtually free and because of the way I drive (like a madman), and because I said screw it and bought everything on the list.

As for the engine, I have the 30v and most friends have teh 1.8T (chipped). They kick my ass on the track, mostly because of driving skills but also because of the engine. OTOH, I like the super smooth & quiet V6 on my daily commute.

Pick any, order it with Xenons, and you won't regret it!

- Stan

After making a mistake in 1997 leasing an Acura 2.5TL after just a short test drive with the sales guy blabbing away in the passenger seat. I asked my Audi dealer for extended 1+ hour test drives in a 1.8T QMS and 2.8 QMS. I signed an agreement and off I went.

I ended up with the 2.8 QMS and got leather and moonroof because they had one on the lot so I said what the heck. I didn't want to do any mods and the V6 was smoother and quieter but I do admit the 1.8T felt lighter in the turns.

Get the Quattro, sport package and manual with either engine and you can't go wrong with this car! The Quattro adds another dimension that you can really feel during spirited driving. I've had real-wheel drive for 20+ years and 2 years in the front drive Acura and really love the Quattro although the extended drought here in CT has not provided me a good chance to test in the rain!

Arch57 99.5 2.8QMS

You do void the warranty, but only on those parts directly affacted by the change. Most people here have had no problems getting warranty service on chipped cars. Yes, you reduce reliability, durability, and longevity. The question is by how much? In Europe you can buy a 180hp 1.8t A4 stock from the dealer, also, the 180 hp TT engine only changes the flywheel (as far as I know) and that's probably for a sportier feel, making it quicker to rev up.

See my post above for more thoughts on chipping.

Regards,
Rodney

'99 A4 1.8tqms (stock for now)

Go ahead make us jealous. :-)

The 2.8 and 1.8t are different cars. Only you can decide which is right for you (and your budget). Regardless, get Quattro and the sport package. Quattro is great for spirited driving and on the track. The sport package is more than just tires and steering wheel, it's stiffer shocks, lower springs, and bigger anti roll bars. Also, if you're not getting the moonroof, your dealer may give you a tough time. Very few A4's come to the states without the roof and some folks on the forum have had to put extra deposits down to get a car with no roof (moonroof that is).

The 2.8 is quicker stock and smoother all around. On the other hand, the 1.8t is incredibly smooth for a four and VERY tuneable.

Now, some thoughts on chipping. You may run into warranty issues, that really depends on the dealer. You will definitely reduce longevity, but by how much is a big question. A stage 1 chip increases hp to 180-200+ (depending on the chip) and costs from $200-600. Basically it increases the max boost of the turbo from .5 bar (about 7psi) to .8 (about 11 psi) or 1.0 bar (about 14 psi). The KKK K03 turbo (the A4's stock turbo) is rated at 1.0 bar, plus it doesn't spend much time at max boost, so this shouldn't be a major issue. Read the search the archives for TONS of info on chipping, there's a pretty technical discussion under the title "Chips and salsa". My point is go into chipping with your eyes open. Thus far I'm not aware of any problems (except pinging, which the chip maker will fix) that anyone on this forum has experienced, and there are people who have got close to 50,000 chipped miles on their cars.

Regards,
Rodney

'99 A4 1.8tqms

Don,

I hear you. In the past year I've gone from a 4-cylinder turbo quattro, to a RWD inline-6 (///M3) to a supercharger FWD 2.8. Talk about variety. I'm planning on doing a big writeup on my thoughts as soon as work tones down a bit. My thoughts in a nutshell.

1) Even with stock tires and the sport package, you will NOT get stuck with quattro. I tried...couldn't do it :)

2) You're right about the fwd 2.8 being lighter than the 1.8TQ....and it feels it. That extra ~250lbs missing from the quattro makes the car feel much lighter on it's feet (feet?). My current 2.8 fwd feels significantly more nimble than my 1.8TQ did. Turn-in is practically instantaneous and smoother than my 1.8TQ was.

3) If you're not going to be making significant power modifications to the car, you shouldn't have any concerns about torque-steer, etc. I'm putting out 280hp through the front wheels (granted I have 17" 225/45 tires) and notice no torque-steer in straight line acceleration...amazing considering how much can be found on a 190hp Maxima. Wheelspin off the line is another matter altogether :) With so much power, it is easy to get the wheels to lift some and spin on a tight turn, though. Overall, I am very impressed...no, AMAZED at the job Audi has done with their fwd.

Ideally, I'd like to have quattro, I think. Putting so much power to the ground, I'd just feel better having quattro. And while I have no doubts that the fwd will be perfectly capable in the winter...you just can't beat the fun of AWD in the snow :) I should mention though, that I think the fwd 2.8 is more fun to drive than the 1.8TQ was....it really feels ALOT more nimble and quicker.

My thoughts: You don't NEED quattro to get through the snow. Maniacs like me like it cuz it's fun and does put the power to the ground better than fwd...remember, I'm talking 280hp vs. 190, which the fwd will handle just fine, I believe.

If you're NOT going to be tuning this car and adding horsepower, etc, then given the choice between one or the other, I would choose the V6 fwd over the 1.8T w/quattro. I find it lighter, more fun to drive, and just think that the V6 gives a better daily return on investment than the quattro does one those 1% of days when you wouldn't have left your house if you only had fwd. Ideally, I think I would get a 2.8 Quattro and sacrifice some of the nimbleness of the fwd to have the power better distributed through 4 wheels, but that's only because I will always be running >250hp.

I'm going to be very interested to see what happens the first time I come upon an unsuspecting stock S4 with a 400+lb weight disadvantage.

Will<ul><li><a href="http://vu.union.edu/~allenw">Will's A4 & M3 page.</a></li></ul>

Point:

Quattro is one of the reasons to buy the a4. It is the best of both worlds for driving pleasure and all weather handling. Even with quattro, the a4 offers better value than the BMW 3 series. Audi's fit and finish is more polished than its german competitors and the drive is more sporty than its japanese competitors (Acura TL, Infiniti G20, Nissan Maxima).

Counterpoint:

Quattro on dry pavement makes little difference unless you have 200HP+ (read the article in a4.org)

On wet pavement, quattro will help you launch quicker but the extra weight is a penalty for braking.

FWD with snow tires will get you out of virtually any situation (albeit slower than quattro)

1.8T is excellent value but 150hp with quattro and without a chip is somewhat sluggish. With tip and quattro and no chip, it is slower than the infiniti g20 (that's embarrasing)

Chipping opens up reliability and warranty concerns. Not necessarily a problem but something to be aware of.

2.8 is better but pricey, not on the "best buy" list of most reviewers.

Expected repair costs of A4 is higher than any car in its class (check extended warranty prices)

Conclusion?

If you need quattro

2.8 if you can justify the cost
1.8T if you can live with the performance
1.8T chip with an extended warranty if you need the peace of mind (don't have info on extended warranty issues with a chip)

If you don't need quattro

BMW3 if performance is paramount
1.8T if performance and value are both important
Japanese if you want value, reliability with a small leaning towards performance

Is an A4 likely to be THAT bad?

Owned it a little over 4 years!

BMW Problems
Under warranty

rear differential boots x4
new exhaust system
H2O pump
head gasket
new instrument cluster
new parking brake
clunking suspension
new a/c system
new clock


Out of warranty
rear differential at 100K $2800
engine rebuild 53K $2400
window switch
interior panels loose
interior plastic separated on doors
front steering joints replaced
rear suspension clunked
New fuel pump
a/c blower died

I probably even missed some stuff! But basically, within EVERY 10K time frame all the way to the end I had PROBLEMS, some major! My differential dies in Florida on vacation... ruined it!

One reason I am just thinking about a FWD 1.8T- simple and relatively inexpensive, less to go wrong w/o quattro, less to maintain too.

Don, I had an 89 Accord SE-I that had the following work in 165,000 miles:

1) Distributor cap replaced twice.

2) Brakes once (got new front rotors because the nitwits that did it turned them too much)

3) I think they had to re-align the glove box once.

No, I don't think any car could be as bad as that 318. That must have made you crazy.

Bill

One of the best things (but not only) about an Audi is Quattro.

You didn't see anyone here complaining about Quattro reliability - other then a couple of leaking rear seals fixed. Don't let non-substantiated worries stop you from getting the great Quattro option - the cost of which you will easily make back on resale.

MitchC 99.5 1.8tqms