Ali B. -- Let's talk about BMW all-season traction. You know, the one that will be standard on your new BMW 323i. That helped a 1998 BMW 528i in back of me on the way to Killington go sideways and end up hitting a guardrail. He had snowtires. Me, Z-rated summer tires. Hmm.<p>Or let's talk about quattro in heavy rain last year. No slipping.<p>Or my trip on the NY Thruway when in college where a quattro-equipped Audi 90 was just plowing through snow.<p>So my A4 can't go 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. But the interior doesn't have some cheap-looking plastic crap around it for $36K, either. And I paid less.<p>quattro still reigns supreme, all-season traction bullsh_t or not.<p><br>-josh<br>98.5 2.8QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQms

You can compare thousands of things in the A4 and the 323/328, but you must never, ever try and compare traction control to quattro. To quote my son: "Quattro Rules!" Jason, age 6, exclaimed as we twisted through the snow covered mountain road. (OK, he was only imitating his dad).

z-rated summer tires for winter driving? do you wear snowboots in the summer too?<br>this is b.s, arguement- i new someone who wrapped a quattro around a tree in<br>rain-8k in body damage.

<br>You don't need snow tires with Quattro. All season tires are a bit of a waste if you are going to piddle along with the rest of the world in bad weather(yes, I know all of the arguments about braking). Summer tires year-round in the Northeast is possible, I've done it when broke, but a little foolish nonetheless. However, you do need to be a good enough driver. Anyone can wrap a car around a tree, quattro won't save every mistake.<p>You're right though, this is a b.s. argument. Single instances don't equal rules of wisdom. BMWs have many strong points, they are better cars for many people, but no amount of traction control on a rwd will ever match quattro.<p>If you drive hard only when it's nice out, don't mind the tail wagging once in a while in bad weather, and think that a blizzard is meant for cuddling by the fire, you don't need quattro. <p>If you refuse to be a slave to the weather, want to hit the slopes while the snow is thick as soup, and are willing to sacrifice that extra razor edge of performance/road feel for hightened safety margins in all conditions, then you want quattro.<p>If you're somewhere in the middle, then pick the one you like better in the showroom. Styling, etc. is a matter of opinion. I prefer the ergonomics of the Audis myself, but I enjoy riding in others' BMWs. Also, BMWs are mainstream and Audis are just getting over being oddities. I have two Audis; one doesn't have more than ten siblings in Dallas, the other doesn't have five in Texas. No one at work understands, but I prefer it that way. If you don't want to constantly suffer the criticism of uppity BMW owners, get a BMW. If you can just smile and play along, beleiving that you are getting the last laugh, you may be ready for quattro.<p>You just can't appreciate quattro without driving it regularly for at least a year. If you don't feel the need for it don't get it. Me? I'm ruined, I don't see ever not getting a quattro again. I started in upstate NY for two years, but now that I live in this desert named Dallas I have never even considered going back to anything else. <p>I had a full-time 4wd Dodge pickup for 5 years and it had maybe 20% of the capability of a quattro. That truck suffered from the old adage of 4wd doesn't stop any better in the snow. My parents have a Grand Cherokee, very good but no comparison to quattro. It goes offroad well and runs chores with abandon. It is more than competent enough for the road, but not the same driving experience at all. If you want a sense of safety based on size, get an SUV. If you want a sense of security based on handling that is so competent, yet so progressive and forgiving, get a quattro.<p>I hope that this diatribe helps. It is longer than I expected, but it is a complex issue if looked at fairly. I just hope that enough people get some answers from this so that there are fewer spats on the forum. I really like the forum and I don't want the helpful people to get chased off by bruised egos arguing. Everything has it's good points, not the least of which is quattro! :)<p>Todd W<br>86 5KTQ (194K)<br>83 UrQ

If you are going to bag on my brother, at least do not pin him as the guy who is buying the BMW 323i. That would be me. Now, he is kind of skeptical on the Quattro advantage out here in sunny Southern California. I agree with him in the sense that OUR weather conditions are anything but rainy or snowy. It rains here twice or three times a year. A nice rear wheel drive will suffice out here as opposed to a Quattro, which will not be really used all that much here in LA.<p>I do like the Quattro system personally, but I would get in a city where it was needed. IMHO, It puts on extra weight on the car, making it suffer in gas mileage, higher insurance, and maintenance expenses may be higher when it comes to service. All that said, if I lived in an area with some rain or snow at least a few months out of the year, I would take the Quattro 2.8 over the 323i. <p>I chose the 323i over the A4 2.8 fwd for the reasons that a true sports sedan should not be a fwd car, and therefore, a fwd A4 was out of the question, and the Quattro was not really needed for LA. So the less expensive of the new E46 BMW's, the 323i, made sense for me financially. I think the 328i is a little overpriced and the 323i is priced just right. I am sure a lot of you Quattro owners here in LA or Orange County will disagree with me on the necessity of awd out here. Hey, I cannot argue with your decision on the Quattro option. The A4 is a hell of a car, Quattro or not.<p>Respecfully,<p>Alex B.

Todd,<p>I'm with you! Once I experienced quattro, I was sold. I have had many instances where I was pulling out from a blind corner from a gravel road, or on a wet road, or whatever, and the quattro saved my butt. Without it I would have been spinning my wheels before being T-Boned. The ability to do 3000+RPM launches on a wet road is incredible. Friend's are amazed when I drive up the gravel road to my house. They just can't believe that I can give full throttle in first and second gear and rocks aren't thrown. Here's my favorite part! Some friend's have a Grand Cherokee Limited. If it snows, they call me, I drive to their house on my summer tires, and take them wherever they need to go. Granted they may just be panzies (don't tell them I said that), but they are amazed that I could go up and down some of the steepest hills in the area to get to their house. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like a RWD car, but for everyday use, and crossing mountain passes in the winter time, I'll take quattro, thank you very much! <p>ChuckH

Todd,<p>In the rest of cold climate N.America you emphatically do need snow tires. It's your car, do with it what you want, but snow tires are cheap insurance and a lot more fun in snow and ice; no contest.<p>You forgot about the q rear suspension. In the real world with bumps and grooves, the q a-arm system is much more sophisticated and controls camber change much more effectively. Launching and corner exiting with q is much faster as well.<p>Diatribe on.

<br>I can't speak from experience about other northern climates. I had way too much fun with cheap all season tires to be healthy for my car insurance, so I stayed away from Hakkapaletas (sp?). I was afraid that the temptation to run from the cops would be overwhelming.<p>Everyone feel free to add things that I left out. Just as one instance does not make a rule, one impression will never tell the complete story.<p>Thanks,<p>Todd W

For those of you who may be wondering what this is all about, I posted the link to an an article written by someone at the Tech Center at Edmund's on this forum just before it was archived yesterday. The title of the article was "What Wheel Drive?". The article discusses advantages and disadvantages of FWD, RWD, AWD and 4WD. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about this subject. I don't know why this knucklehead Josh L is jumping all over me as if I am spreading BMW propaganda. I really think it is a case of mistaken identity, but he should get his facts straight before attacking people. His response was totally uncalled for.

Uh, you're talking without checking facts. Quattro lowers insurance compared to fwd, at least with my insurance agent here in icy Longview, Texas. <p>When I bought my 98.5 1.8T qms this summer, replacing a 92 Sentra w/ 81000 mi on it resulted in an insurance premium increase of ~ $15/mo (_with_ higher coverage for the A4). The increase for a 323 would have been closer to $120/mo more. A friend in michigan (we just moved to texas) told me that her agent quoted premiums of twice as much for the 323 compared to the A4 1.8T just last spring (she got the A4). Just one person's comparisons, but insurance seems to be considerably cheaper for the A4.<p>I'll also point out that since you haven't owned a quattro, you know nothing about higher maintenance costs.<p>On the defensiveness of BMW salesdrones . . . <br>My father in law is currently picking out a new car. We went to BMW dealership and I mentioned to the salesman that I had an A4, and man, doesn't BMW charge a lot for option packages (you dont even get alloy wheels or cruise control with the base 323). Anyway, the first thing out of his mouth was some squaking about traction control on the BMW & how he grew up in illinois with only rwd cars. What a joke! My in-law even mentioned later that he was surprised at how defensive the guy was (he wants the C230 kompressor - that's another diatribe).<p>On a more general note . . . <br>Anyway, Alex, Ali, you both are very obnoxious and would both do well to do a little thinking & checking things before you continue squaking about your precious smart choices. Most people on this forum love cars more than their own egos, and love BMW's too. If you stop acting like children, you will probably stop being treated like children. If you are, in fact, children, then I sincerely apologize. Please continue.<p>Darryl<p>98.5 1.8t qms

Quoted higher premiums (~ $5/mo I think) for fronttrak vs quattro. Go figure

Josh, I think you need to apologize. He just posted a link, that's all. Nobody is saying that Traction control = Quattro, they would be lying or an idiot. So don't start shooting the messenger.<p>

I am looking into an a4 to as a daily/winter car to replace my chevrolet......I do<br>have a problem with the gas mileage and xtra driveline stuff though...I had only<br>3 seasons out of 9 where the 4wd came in handy on my old ford....repairs were<br>a bitch and i had to get out and push the car to accelerate! I swore i'd never go<br>awd after that.

Now that I think about it. The 3-series was about 75% more for insurance than the A42.8Q. Now, add that up over a few years and you are talking $3000-4000+ depending upon how long you keep it...resale value is climbing if not holding up very well on the A4...I think I just saved myself some extra money I hadn't figured upon...Time to go spend! Just kidding. But seriously, that is quite a $ savings if you are looking at it that way, and I never had before, long term.<p>Kirk<br>IN PORT BABY!!!!!!!!7-14days, 7-14 days, 7-14 days...Has anyone survived no sleep for 7-14 days? To paraphrase one of the above posters in another thread, "lions, Tigers, and Bears, oh my..."